Hi There,
Been reading up on quite a few threads on this forum, you all seem
like pretty helpful guys so thought I would post for some thoughts on
my current kitchen thinking.

We are going to be re-doing the whole kitchen complety so re-wire
required here, so I need to make sure we have planned it all correctly
:-)

Sockets
We are going to have all integrated appliances, and I have been
reading up on ways to wire up, FCU above worktops etc, we plan to
surface mount double sockets in the units adjacent to the appliances
to plug them into. This is to minimize all the switches we will
otherwise have above units. The switches to the appliances are then
accessible after moving a few tins of beans, so can be shut off
immediately in an emergency.

Also part of this ring will be the sockets on the wall above worktops.
So on this ring we will have :-
4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?

The boiler which is in kitchen has a separate radial circuit with one
socket at the end of it.

The lighting is where I have my major headache, currently we have one
very large strip light, infact looks like 2 stuck together, you should
see how long it takes to come one after switching switch!! The plan
for lighting is to
1) replace strip light with a none offense light, perhaps a four way
spot light.
2) Fluorescent tubes over wall cabinets for extra light
3) Under counter fluorescent lighting
4) Kitchen has a recess so we are lowering ceiling and putting
spotlights in there.

Now it is a flat I live in, so gaining access to lighting is tricky
and I think not a good idea to put any more on circuit, as all rooms
are on one circuit ( 6 light fittings). Also the wiring is a bit
peculiar, not anything I have read about! The power comes from CU,
into a metal box, in metal box, about 6 T & E wires are twisted
together, i.e. reds all twisted together etc. Then each wire goes to
the switch in each room and out the switch comes feed to light, so
switch off, cable would be dead. So the neutral cables in the light
switch boxes are twisted together and not in any connection.

Anyway we have a spare breaker in fuse box, so was wondering if it
would be a good idea to create a new light circuit for lights 2,3 and
4 in the kitchen. The under and over counter lighting is what I am
unsure of here, I would like a switch for the over and one for the
under and one for recess, ideally all in one grid switch to keep it
neat. The kitchen will be u shaped but has a gap at the top of the U
in units due to a window, so cannot just connect lights all the way
round, using the nice connection cables that you can get. The lights
will just be on the two opposite walls.

What is the best way to link up these fluorescent lights, and have
them controlled by one switch each, can I just start at one end
connect lights, then run a T&E to the lights at other side, putting
cable under floor, then end that set at other side of kitchen?

Thanks for any advice, and cries of NO DON'T DO IT ;-) Rather that,
than get blown across the room

4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?

Well, I would not be happy having all this on one circuit, even a 32A ring.
Also, it doesn't allow for RCD protection.

I would at least divide into 2 circuits.

1. NOT RCD protected for fridge/freezer/dishwasher/washing machine/oven/hob.
2. RCD protected for everything else.

Personally, in a similar situation I have 3 circuits.

1. 16A MCB radial for fridge/freezer only.
2. 32A MCB radial for washing machine/dishwasher/tumble dryer.
3. 32A RCBO ring for sockets and the oven.

There's no particular reason to have the oven on the RCBO circuit, except
that it is actually now quite underloaded, so has plenty of spare capacity.
The oven is (or at least will be) only the 2nd oven in the cooker. The main
oven and grill is gas. I prefer to have the fridge on a separate circuit to
avoid the consequences of the circuit tripping. At least if it trips, we
know it was the freezer or associated wiring at fault, not some fault
elsewhere.

The lighting is where I have my major headache, currently we have one
very large strip light, infact looks like 2 stuck together, you should
see how long it takes to come one after switching switch!! The plan
for lighting is to
1) replace strip light with a none offense light, perhaps a four way
spot light.
2) Fluorescent tubes over wall cabinets for extra light
3) Under counter fluorescent lighting
4) Kitchen has a recess so we are lowering ceiling and putting
spotlights in there.

Just avoid the spotlights, as they are inefficient. I've got a couple of
flush fittings in the ceiling, which take CFLs and underpelmet fluorescents.
This is plenty of light. Make sure they are switched separately from the
ceiling lighting.

Now it is a flat I live in, so gaining access to lighting is tricky
and I think not a good idea to put any more on circuit, as all rooms
are on one circuit ( 6 light fittings). Also the wiring is a bit
peculiar, not anything I have read about! The power comes from CU,
into a metal box, in metal box, about 6 T & E wires are twisted
together, i.e. reds all twisted together etc. Then each wire goes to
the switch in each room and out the switch comes feed to light, so
switch off, cable would be dead. So the neutral cables in the light
switch boxes are twisted together and not in any connection.

All sounds fine, apart from the twisting together. It is perfectly
acceptable in a circuit design sense, it is just that the connections are
insufficiently secure.

Anyway we have a spare breaker in fuse box, so was wondering if it
would be a good idea to create a new light circuit for lights 2,3 and
4 in the kitchen. The under and over counter lighting is what I am
unsure of here, I would like a switch for the over and one for the
under and one for recess, ideally all in one grid switch to keep it
neat. The kitchen will be u shaped but has a gap at the top of the U
in units due to a window, so cannot just connect lights all the way
round, using the nice connection cables that you can get. The lights
will just be on the two opposite walls.

Don't worry about providing a new light circuit until you've added up all
the usage on your current one. Also, if you avoid SES or SBS fittings and
only have standard light fittings (plus any LV halogens/fluorescents etc),
then you can usually increase the MCB to 10A.

What is the best way to link up these fluorescent lights, and have
them controlled by one switch each, can I just start at one end
connect lights, then run a T&E to the lights at other side, putting
cable under floor, then end that set at other side of kitchen?

Yes, just connect them all together with T&E and connect that T&E to the
light switch, assuming you will maintain the method of looping the neutral
at the switch.

In some ways, as you are using light switch looping and grid switches,
consider using 20A DP switch modules and having DP switching on your light
circuits. That will be slightly safer, especially in the event of using ES
fittings.

Christian.

"inNeedofHelp" wrote
| This is to minimize all the switches we will otherwise have
| above units. The switches to the appliances are then
| accessible after moving a few tins of beans, so can be shut
| off immediately in an emergency.

I'm not sure but I think cooker control units have to be visible; they
certainly should be within 2m of the cooker.

You can cut down on the number of switches by wiring as a radial circuit and
having a gridswitch panel with a number of 20A DP switches on one faceplate.

| in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
| machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
| 2.35 kW
| Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
| separate supply) and the extractor.

Bear in mind that double 13A sockets are not rated at 26A, and if you
concentrate oven/dishwasher/washer you may have an unacceptably uneven
distribution of load around the ring.

| Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?
| The boiler which is in kitchen has a separate radial circuit with one
| socket at the end of it.

If the boiler is connected by plug and socket it must be an unswitched
socket. This is to ensure the plug is pulled to provide DP isolation.

Owain

"inNeedofHelp" wrote in message
om...
Hi There,
Been reading up on quite a few threads on this forum, you all seem
like pretty helpful guys so thought I would post for some thoughts on
my current kitchen thinking.

We are going to be re-doing the whole kitchen complety so re-wire
required here, so I need to make sure we have planned it all correctly
:-)

Sockets
We are going to have all integrated appliances, and I have been
reading up on ways to wire up, FCU above worktops etc, we plan to
surface mount double sockets in the units adjacent to the appliances
to plug them into. This is to minimize all the switches we will
otherwise have above units. The switches to the appliances are then
accessible after moving a few tins of beans, so can be shut off
immediately in an emergency.

Also part of this ring will be the sockets on the wall above worktops.
So on this ring we will have :-
4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?

The boiler which is in kitchen has a separate radial circuit with one
socket at the end of it.

The lighting is where I have my major headache, currently we have one
very large strip light, infact looks like 2 stuck together, you should
see how long it takes to come one after switching switch!! The plan
for lighting is to
1) replace strip light with a none offense light, perhaps a four way
spot light.
2) Fluorescent tubes over wall cabinets for extra light
3) Under counter fluorescent lighting
4) Kitchen has a recess so we are lowering ceiling and putting
spotlights in there.

Now it is a flat I live in, so gaining access to lighting is tricky
and I think not a good idea to put any more on circuit, as all rooms
are on one circuit ( 6 light fittings). Also the wiring is a bit
peculiar, not anything I have read about! The power comes from CU,
into a metal box, in metal box, about 6 T & E wires are twisted
together, i.e. reds all twisted together etc. Then each wire goes to
the switch in each room and out the switch comes feed to light, so
switch off, cable would be dead. So the neutral cables in the light
switch boxes are twisted together and not in any connection.

Anyway we have a spare breaker in fuse box, so was wondering if it
would be a good idea to create a new light circuit for lights 2,3 and
4 in the kitchen. The under and over counter lighting is what I am
unsure of here, I would like a switch for the over and one for the
under and one for recess, ideally all in one grid switch to keep it
neat. The kitchen will be u shaped but has a gap at the top of the U
in units due to a window, so cannot just connect lights all the way
round, using the nice connection cables that you can get. The lights
will just be on the two opposite walls.

What is the best way to link up these fluorescent lights, and have
them controlled by one switch each, can I just start at one end
connect lights, then run a T&E to the lights at other side, putting
cable under floor, then end that set at other side of kitchen?

Thanks for any advice, and cries of NO DON'T DO IT ;-) Rather that,
than get blown across the room

I would still put the overn on a seperate cb and cable from the CU, This is
so it can be switched off when the grill catches fire !! and also less
upheval should you go all electric

inNeedofHelp wrote:

Hi There,
Been reading up on quite a few threads on this forum, you all seem
like pretty helpful guys so thought I would post for some thoughts on
my current kitchen thinking.

We are going to be re-doing the whole kitchen complety so re-wire
required here, so I need to make sure we have planned it all correctly
:-)

Sockets
We are going to have all integrated appliances, and I have been
reading up on ways to wire up, FCU above worktops etc, we plan to
surface mount double sockets in the units adjacent to the appliances
to plug them into. This is to minimize all the switches we will
otherwise have above units. The switches to the appliances are then
accessible after moving a few tins of beans, so can be shut off
immediately in an emergency.

Nice idea.

I found places for soclkets and switches behind the units. If there is a
major problem I just kill the whole ring and fix..

Also part of this ring will be the sockets on the wall above worktops.
So on this ring we will have :-
4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?

I prefer to lightly load rings, but it seems accepatble to me.


The boiler which is in kitchen has a separate radial circuit with one
socket at the end of it.

The lighting is where I have my major headache, currently we have one
very large strip light, infact looks like 2 stuck together, you should
see how long it takes to come one after switching switch!! The plan
for lighting is to
1) replace strip light with a none offense light, perhaps a four way
spot light.
2) Fluorescent tubes over wall cabinets for extra light
3) Under counter fluorescent lighting
4) Kitchen has a recess so we are lowering ceiling and putting
spotlights in there.

Good idea. Put in lots, and put in seperate wires for evertything, as
you may want to differentially swith or dim later on.


Now it is a flat I live in, so gaining access to lighting is tricky
and I think not a good idea to put any more on circuit, as all rooms
are on one circuit ( 6 light fittings). Also the wiring is a bit
peculiar, not anything I have read about! The power comes from CU,
into a metal box, in metal box, about 6 T & E wires are twisted
together, i.e. reds all twisted together etc. Then each wire goes to
the switch in each room and out the switch comes feed to light, so
switch off, cable would be dead. So the neutral cables in the light
switch boxes are twisted together and not in any connection.

Anyway we have a spare breaker in fuse box, so was wondering if it
would be a good idea to create a new light circuit for lights 2,3 and
4 in the kitchen. The under and over counter lighting is what I am
unsure of here, I would like a switch for the over and one for the
under and one for recess, ideally all in one grid switch to keep it
neat. The kitchen will be u shaped but has a gap at the top of the U
in units due to a window, so cannot just connect lights all the way
round, using the nice connection cables that you can get. The lights
will just be on the two opposite walls.

What is the best way to link up these fluorescent lights, and have
them controlled by one switch each, can I just start at one end
connect lights, then run a T&E to the lights at other side, putting
cable under floor, then end that set at other side of kitchen?


Bite teh bullet and fit yourself

- a cable from consumer unit to kichen for ALL lights.
- a decent juncton box in teh wall or a cupboard or something
- separate wires from this to every independently controlled light
- as few cables (live/switched live pairs?) from this to the grid switch
as is possible. That is don't carry either the lighting wores or any
netrlas to teh switch if its big. Do all the neutral commoning and earth
commoning in the junction box.

I should have done his in my kitchen, and didn't, and the 3 way switch
is a rats nest as a result.



-
e Thanks for any advice, and cries of NO DON'T DO IT ;-) Rather that,
than get blown across the room

Christian McArdle wrote:

4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?


Well, I would not be happy having all this on one circuit, even a 32A ring.
Also, it doesn't allow for RCD protection.

I would at least divide into 2 circuits.

1. NOT RCD protected for fridge/freezer/dishwasher/washing machine/oven/hob.
2. RCD protected for everything else.


NO! unless the whole house is RCD protected by 100mA. You MUST have a
trip on the appliances as these are he most likely things to develop an
earth leakage problem. Agreed this is not normally a shock problem
unless the metalwork gets de-earthed by e.g. corrsion.

Personally, in a similar situation I have 3 circuits.

1. 16A MCB radial for fridge/freezer only.
2. 32A MCB radial for washing machine/dishwasher/tumble dryer.
3. 32A RCBO ring for sockets and the oven.

Ive got it another way, single 32A protected on house 100mA for all
sockets and applinaces

Single 45A for cooker, agreed its a full leccy cooker.

I would NEVER run any metal cased appliance without some form of RCD.
Loose earth wire and then a fault and your dead.

Ideally I would have one ring for appliances (below counter) and one for
sockets (above counter) with RCBO on each...

NO! unless the whole house is RCD protected by 100mA. You MUST have a
trip on the appliances as these are he most likely things to develop an
earth leakage problem. Agreed this is not normally a shock problem
unless the metalwork gets de-earthed by e.g. corrsion.

"MUST" is a bit strong. There is no requirement in the regs to RCD protect
such circuits. If safety is your concern, the 40 quid additional cost of the
RCBO would be better spent elsewhere, like on additional fire extinguishers
or an escape ladder, or non-slip paint for the door step, all of which are
far more likely to save you from harm than the slight possibility of a
double fault occuring in an appliance whilst you are clamped to a good earth
in the kitchen.

It also strongly increases the risk of a nuisance trip taking out the
fridge/freezer.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message .net...
4 dbl sockets for small appliances (ie toaster, kettle)
in cupboard sockets for Fridge/Freezer, Freezer, Dishwasher, washing
machine, Gas hob (power for sparker), Oven as it rating is Max Rating:
2.35 kW
Fuse Rating: 13 Amps(sparky told me can go on main ring and not need a
separate supply) and the extractor.
Will this be acceptable or should it be split into 2 circuits?

Well, I would not be happy having all this on one circuit, even a 32A ring.
Also, it doesn't allow for RCD protection.

I would at least divide into 2 circuits.

1. NOT RCD protected for fridge/freezer/dishwasher/washing machine/oven/hob.
2. RCD protected for everything else.

Personally, in a similar situation I have 3 circuits.

1. 16A MCB radial for fridge/freezer only.
2. 32A MCB radial for washing machine/dishwasher/tumble dryer.
3. 32A RCBO ring for sockets and the oven.

There's no particular reason to have the oven on the RCBO circuit, except
that it is actually now quite underloaded, so has plenty of spare capacity.
The oven is (or at least will be) only the 2nd oven in the cooker. The main
oven and grill is gas. I prefer to have the fridge on a separate circuit to
avoid the consequences of the circuit tripping. At least if it trips, we
know it was the freezer or associated wiring at fault, not some fault
elsewhere.



So it would be more prudent to split the kitchen into 2 circuits and
then would I run my extra lights of the lighting circuit, or some
could come off ring. Altough this then means I have a nasty FCU box to
put somewhere.



The lighting is where I have my major headache, currently we have one
very large strip light, infact looks like 2 stuck together, you should
see how long it takes to come one after switching switch!! The plan
for lighting is to
1) replace strip light with a none offense light, perhaps a four way
spot light.
2) Fluorescent tubes over wall cabinets for extra light
3) Under counter fluorescent lighting
4) Kitchen has a recess so we are lowering ceiling and putting
spotlights in there.

Just avoid the spotlights, as they are inefficient. I've got a couple of
flush fittings in the ceiling, which take CFLs and underpelmet fluorescents.
This is plenty of light. Make sure they are switched separately from the
ceiling lighting.

Now it is a flat I live in, so gaining access to lighting is tricky
and I think not a good idea to put any more on circuit, as all rooms
are on one circuit ( 6 light fittings). Also the wiring is a bit
peculiar, not anything I have read about! The power comes from CU,
into a metal box, in metal box, about 6 T & E wires are twisted
together, i.e. reds all twisted together etc. Then each wire goes to
the switch in each room and out the switch comes feed to light, so
switch off, cable would be dead. So the neutral cables in the light
switch boxes are twisted together and not in any connection.

All sounds fine, apart from the twisting together. It is perfectly
acceptable in a circuit design sense, it is just that the connections are
insufficiently secure.
Would you suggest a connection block or j-box here then?


Anyway we have a spare breaker in fuse box, so was wondering if it
would be a good idea to create a new light circuit for lights 2,3 and
4 in the kitchen. The under and over counter lighting is what I am
unsure of here, I would like a switch for the over and one for the
under and one for recess, ideally all in one grid switch to keep it
neat. The kitchen will be u shaped but has a gap at the top of the U
in units due to a window, so cannot just connect lights all the way
round, using the nice connection cables that you can get. The lights
will just be on the two opposite walls.

Don't worry about providing a new light circuit until you've added up all
the usage on your current one. Also, if you avoid SES or SBS fittings and
only have standard light fittings (plus any LV halogens/fluorescents etc),
then you can usually increase the MCB to 10A.

What is the best way to link up these fluorescent lights, and have
them controlled by one switch each, can I just start at one end
connect lights, then run a T&E to the lights at other side, putting
cable under floor, then end that set at other side of kitchen?

Yes, just connect them all together with T&E and connect that T&E to the
light switch, assuming you will maintain the method of looping the neutral
at the switch.

In some ways, as you are using light switch looping and grid switches,
consider using 20A DP switch modules and having DP switching on your light
circuits. That will be slightly safer, especially in the event of using ES
fittings.

Could you elaborate here? Why are DP switches better and what is ES?
Over my head here a little, more reading required.

Christian.

Could you elaborate here? Why are DP switches better and what is ES?
Over my head here a little, more reading required.

DP switches switch the neutral as well as the phase. If you're going to use
a grid switch and light switch looped neutrals, the additional neutral
connections in the switch modules may actually make wiring easier, as you
aren't trying to stuff loads of neutrals in one loose and poorly insulated
connector.

The DP grid switches will have live+neutral supply and live+neutral load.
Simply connect the output lighting cables to the load terminals and connect
all the supply lives to each other (and the incoming circuit cable) and all
the supply neutrals to each other (and the incoming circuit cable). No
terminal (except your earth block) will need more than 2 cables inserted.
Each of the T&E live conductors (phase or neutral) will need to be cut the
same length (the earths will probably need to be longer), making
installation easier.

+----------+----------+-------- to circuit live
| +----------+----------+------ to circuit neutral
| | | | | |
+-L-N-+ +-L-N-+ +-L-N-+
|Supp.| |Supp.| |Supp.|
| | | | | |
|Load | |Load | |Load |
+-L-N-+ +-L-N-+ +-L-N-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
To light To light To light
1 2 3

Earths omitted for clarity.
Switches 2 and 3 will have 2 T&E on the supply side.

ES = edison screw. Miswiring in the lighting circuit wiring may make the
outside terminal live, when it should be neutral. At least with DP
switching, when the light switch is off, you know that the accessible
outside terminal is dead. This benefit is very minor. The main reason I
suggest DP switching is that it can make wiring simpler when you have switch
looped neutrals.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net...
Could you elaborate here? Why are DP switches better and what is ES?
Over my head here a little, more reading required.

DP switches switch the neutral as well as the phase. If you're going to use
a grid switch and light switch looped neutrals, the additional neutral
connections in the switch modules may actually make wiring easier, as you
aren't trying to stuff loads of neutrals in one loose and poorly insulated
connector.

The DP grid switches will have live+neutral supply and live+neutral load.
Simply connect the output lighting cables to the load terminals and connect
all the supply lives to each other (and the incoming circuit cable) and all
the supply neutrals to each other (and the incoming circuit cable). No
terminal (except your earth block) will need more than 2 cables inserted.
Each of the T&E live conductors (phase or neutral) will need to be cut the
same length (the earths will probably need to be longer), making
installation easier.

+----------+----------+-------- to circuit live
| +----------+----------+------ to circuit neutral
| | | | | |
+-L-N-+ +-L-N-+ +-L-N-+
|Supp.| |Supp.| |Supp.|
| | | | | |
|Load | |Load | |Load |
+-L-N-+ +-L-N-+ +-L-N-+
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
To light To light To light
1 2 3

Earths omitted for clarity.
Switches 2 and 3 will have 2 T&E on the supply side.

ES = edison screw. Miswiring in the lighting circuit wiring may make the
outside terminal live, when it should be neutral. At least with DP
switching, when the light switch is off, you know that the accessible
outside terminal is dead. This benefit is very minor. The main reason I
suggest DP switching is that it can make wiring simpler when you have switch
looped neutrals.

Christian.

Thanks for clarifying that :-)
I was having another look at the lighting last night, to work out if
current circuit would take our intended lighting. Our lighting circuit
is running on a 16A MCB, I expected it to be 5/6 maybe a 10A. Is this
16A MCB ok to leave for the lighting circuit?


A few people have suggested it may be prefferable to put the kitchen
on two circuits. I was wondering if the boiler circuit which runs
through the kitchen could have some other appliances added to it.

Currenlty boiler is on a radial circuit with one dbl socket at the
end, on a 16A MCB. Any reason the boiler needs to be on its own
circuit? Could we extend this one to put some other appliances on, so
to create 2 kitchen circuits.

I was having another look at the lighting last night, to work out if
current circuit would take our intended lighting. Our lighting circuit
is running on a 16A MCB, I expected it to be 5/6 maybe a 10A. Is this
16A MCB ok to leave for the lighting circuit?

No, reduce it to 10A. Most light switches and fittings are rated for that
value, except SBC and SES fittings, which are 6A.

A few people have suggested it may be prefferable to put the kitchen
on two circuits. I was wondering if the boiler circuit which runs
through the kitchen could have some other appliances added to it.

There isn't much diversity left on a 16A radial. I might consider reuse for
the fridge/freezer, but not for major heating appliances like washing
machines, dishwashers or ovens, unless you can fit with 100% allowance.
(i.e. 3A for CH and 10A for a 2kW oven would be OK).

One alternative if it is run in 2.5mm cable (which it might not be, so
check), is to complete a ring with it back to the CU and upgrade to a 32A
MCB. This could then be used as a non-RCD circuit for fixed appliances,
leaving the other kitchen ring as an RCD protected portable equipment socket
circuit. Ensure the CH runs off a 3A FCU, though.

Christian.

In message ,
"Owain" wrote:



If the boiler is connected by plug and socket it must be an unswitched
socket. This is to ensure the plug is pulled to provide DP isolation.


Surely it would also be ok to use a DP switched socket then? They're
pretty universal these days with SP only saving a few pennies at the
extreme budget end of the market...

Then I suppose there's the question of whether it'd be best to isolate
the boiler from the circuit earth when working on it...

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... A phaser on stun is like a day without orange juice.

In article , Martin Angove
wrote:
Then I suppose there's the question of whether it'd be best to
isolate the boiler from the circuit earth when working on it...

On the average copper plumbed house this would probably be
impossible.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
In article , Martin Angove
wrote:
Then I suppose there's the question of whether it'd be best to
isolate the boiler from the circuit earth when working on it...

On the average copper plumbed house this would probably be
impossible.

Isolation doesn't require breaking the earth connection,
just the live and neutral.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Martin Angove" wrote
| "Owain" wrote:
| If the boiler is connected by plug and socket it must be an
| unswitched socket. This is to ensure the plug is pulled to
| provide DP isolation.
| Surely it would also be ok to use a DP switched socket then?
| They're pretty universal these days with SP only saving a few
| pennies at the extreme budget end of the market...

The point is that if a switched socket is used, it is not apparent to Mr
Boiler Man whether it is SP or DP. The possiblity remains that Mr B M will
switch off at the socket, thinking it is DP, when in fact it is SP. Using an
unswitched socket ensures the plug will be pulled (or of course an FCU which
are always DP AFAIK)

Owain

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message et...
I was having another look at the lighting last night, to work out if
current circuit would take our intended lighting. Our lighting circuit
is running on a 16A MCB, I expected it to be 5/6 maybe a 10A. Is this
16A MCB ok to leave for the lighting circuit?

No, reduce it to 10A. Most light switches and fittings are rated for that
value, except SBC and SES fittings, which are 6A.

THis is what I thought, thanks for confirming that. I take it I just
straight swap the MCB for a 10A. After totting up current usage should
still be well within max load, thankfully.

A few people have suggested it may be prefferable to put the kitchen
on two circuits. I was wondering if the boiler circuit which runs
through the kitchen could have some other appliances added to it.

There isn't much diversity left on a 16A radial. I might consider reuse for
the fridge/freezer, but not for major heating appliances like washing
machines, dishwashers or ovens, unless you can fit with 100% allowance.
(i.e. 3A for CH and 10A for a 2kW oven would be OK).

One alternative if it is run in 2.5mm cable (which it might not be, so
check), is to complete a ring with it back to the CU and upgrade to a 32A
MCB. This could then be used as a non-RCD circuit for fixed appliances,
leaving the other kitchen ring as an RCD protected portable equipment socket
circuit. Ensure the CH runs off a 3A FCU, though.

Great this is the news I wanted to hear, this means I can run 2 rings
in the kitchen and still have a spare MCB in the CU :-) Giving the
option to put all the new lights required in kitchen and recess on a
new circuit.

Even if cable is not 2.5mm we can replace this no problem, and then
have sat wahsing machine etc and boiler all on that. A lot of people
go with the all fixed appliances on one ring and sockets on another,
but I was wondering would you not be better doing a 50/50 between both
rings. i.e. some fixed appliances on each ring to spread out the high
load appliances??

Also the CU we have is not a split RCD/non RCD type its a new box, but
just a 100A main switch, and 6 MCBs. SO I guess both kitchen circuits
will be non RCB.

The FCU for boiler, I presume should be a switched one?

Think I may have a look for a good wiring book, my DIY book is pretty
useless, but does have nice pics ;-) Any recomendations?

Thank you so much for advice/info.

Christian.

Great this is the news I wanted to hear, this means I can run 2 rings
in the kitchen and still have a spare MCB in the CU :-)

One problem is that high load appliances can unbalance a ring, if they're
not distributed around it. If you are able to rewire the entire circuit, it
may be worth doing the ring in 4mm, or even to run a radial circuit in 6mm
cable. This way, any imbalance doesn't matter as you are unlikely to
overload one leg.

Giving the option to put all the new lights required in kitchen and recess
on a
new circuit.

I still think putting just a kitchen onto its own lighting circuit is a bit
of a waste of your last remaining spare MCB. However, I can't complain, as I
did exactly this for mine. This had more to do the fact that the existing
house was all off one circuit and I promised myself that I would eventually
distribute the load over 2 circuits. Not that I ever will. OTOH, I have 4
spare ways, still.

THis is what I thought, thanks for confirming that. I take it I just
straight swap the MCB for a 10A.

Someone may have switched it to prevent the MCB tripping when a bulb blows.
A safer solution would have been to use a 6/10A Type C. Better still is to
not use incandescent lightbulbs, but have CFLs exclusively.

Also the CU we have is not a split RCD/non RCD type its a new box, but
just a 100A main switch, and 6 MCBs. SO I guess both kitchen circuits
will be non RCB.

The portable socket MCB (and the MCB for non-kitchen sockets) should be
replaced by a single width RCBO B32A/30mA. The fixed appliance MCB should
remain.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Great this is the news I wanted to hear, this means I can run 2 rings
in the kitchen and still have a spare MCB in the CU :-)

One problem is that high load appliances can unbalance a ring, if they're
not distributed around it. If you are able to rewire the entire circuit,
it
may be worth doing the ring in 4mm, or even to run a radial circuit in 6mm
cable. This way, any imbalance doesn't matter as you are unlikely to
overload one leg.

snipped
Christian.


You should find that you 'will / should' get two by 4mm conductors in the
terminals of a standard 13Amps' socket, but I think you'll find that two 6mm
conductors are far to big to fit. Most manufactures make the terminals 9mm
in diameter, so 12mm won't fit unless you tear some strands off, but that's
a really silly idea so don't do it.


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In message ,
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
Tony Bryer writes:
In article , Martin Angove
wrote:
Then I suppose there's the question of whether it'd be best to
isolate the boiler from the circuit earth when working on it...

On the average copper plumbed house this would probably be
impossible.

Isolation doesn't require breaking the earth connection,
just the live and neutral.


Sorry. I omitted the smiley.

;-)

There. Is that better?

:-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... I'm writing a book. I've got the page numbers done.

In message ,
"Owain" wrote:

"Martin Angove" wrote
| "Owain" wrote:
| If the boiler is connected by plug and socket it must be an
| unswitched socket. This is to ensure the plug is pulled to
| provide DP isolation.
| Surely it would also be ok to use a DP switched socket then?
| They're pretty universal these days with SP only saving a few
| pennies at the extreme budget end of the market...

The point is that if a switched socket is used, it is not apparent to Mr
Boiler Man whether it is SP or DP. The possiblity remains that Mr B M will
switch off at the socket, thinking it is DP, when in fact it is SP. Using an
unswitched socket ensures the plug will be pulled (or of course an FCU which
are always DP AFAIK)


I'd have thought it more likely the other way around:

Boiler engineer who does this sort of thing for a living will always
unplug the boiler rather than assume the socket is DP switched.

Householder who thinks the internal fuse in the boiler may have blown
and wants to DIY without calling in a boiler man (or other similar
situation) may merely switch the plug off without thinking. A DP plug is
then as safe as a non-switched plug or an FCU.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... One way to better your lot is to do a lot better...

Martin Angove wrote:

Householder who thinks the internal fuse in the boiler may have blown
and wants to DIY without calling in a boiler man (or other similar
situation) may merely switch the plug off without thinking. A DP plug is
then as safe as a non-switched plug or an FCU.

A SP switched device would actually satisfy BS 7671, other than in a TT
installation. Although it's normal practice to use DP switching for
isolation, Reg. 460-01-04 states that the neutral does not need to be
isolated in a TN-S or TN-C-S earthed installation fed from the public
mains. The exception is the main switch of a domestic installation,
which must always be DP [476-01-03]. See also page 34 of the OSG.

--
Andy

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net...
Great this is the news I wanted to hear, this means I can run 2 rings
in the kitchen and still have a spare MCB in the CU :-)

....

I still think putting just a kitchen onto its own lighting circuit is a bit
of a waste of your last remaining spare MCB. However, I can't complain, as I
did exactly this for mine. This had more to do the fact that the existing
house was all off one circuit and I promised myself that I would eventually
distribute the load over 2 circuits. Not that I ever will. OTOH, I have 4
spare ways, still.

THis is what I thought, thanks for confirming that. I take it I just
straight swap the MCB for a 10A.

Someone may have switched it to prevent the MCB tripping when a bulb blows.
A safer solution would have been to use a 6/10A Type C. Better still is to
not use incandescent lightbulbs, but have CFLs exclusively.

Also the CU we have is not a split RCD/non RCD type its a new box, but
just a 100A main switch, and 6 MCBs. SO I guess both kitchen circuits
will be non RCB.

The portable socket MCB (and the MCB for non-kitchen sockets) should be
replaced by a single width RCBO B32A/30mA. The fixed appliance MCB should
remain.

Christian.


In light of the new January regs coming I suppose I should either
1) Get a move on and get it down for 1st Jan
2) take the "it was done prior 1st Jan" approach
3) Get electrics checked by relevant person, on completion.

What is it with UK and nannying us, and trying to take all our money
at the same time!