i m fitting a new kitchen and it includes a build in electric oven hob and
cooker hood.
the cooker socket is half way up the wall not far from where the cooker hood
is being fitted.
so the cooker socker needs to be hidden lower down behind
the cooker.
is the a way to do it without taking all the plaster off the wall?
i think the wire runs down.
so do i just get a 45a rated 3 way junction box.
put the wire form the cooker socket into that then another wire from the
junction box to the cooker socket to extend it.
then sink all into wall apart from cooker socket.
thanks
jason

so the cooker socker needs to be hidden lower down behind
the cooker.

You cannot put the cooker switch hidden behind the cooker, it has to be
accessible in case of fire etc..

Peter

In message , Jason
writes
i m fitting a new kitchen and it includes a build in electric oven hob and
cooker hood.
the cooker socket is half way up the wall not far from where the cooker hood
is being fitted.
so the cooker socker needs to be hidden lower down behind
the cooker.
is the a way to do it without taking all the plaster off the wall?
i think the wire runs down.
so do i just get a 45a rated 3 way junction box.
put the wire form the cooker socket into that then another wire from the
junction box to the cooker socket to extend it.
then sink all into wall apart from cooker socket.

not quite, it's not acceptable to bury a junction box in the wall like
that as it's not accessible for maintenance. you would have to have a
removable cover plate

It's slightly possible that the cable is run in conduit, and there is
enough slack above to pull sown the cable, though I doubt you could pull
down the thickness of cable likely if this is a cooker circuit.

I think it's is acceptable to extend the cable in the way you suggest,
but you need to use a permanent joint. Easiest thing here is to use
crimps to make the joints. Use insulated crimps, joint the cable then
cover in heat shrink tubing. Use a proper ratchet crimp tool not a pair
of pliers . You can reasonable ones for about GBP10 - 15

A google groups search on Crimping joints will turn up previous
discussions on this.
--
Chris French, Leeds

On 16 Oct 2004 "Jason" wrote:

i m fitting a new kitchen and it includes a build in electric oven hob
and cooker hood. the cooker socket is half way up the wall not far
from where the cooker hood is being fitted. so the cooker socker needs
to be hidden lower down behind the cooker. is the a way to do it
without taking all the plaster off the wall? i think the wire runs down.
so do i just get a 45a rated 3 way junction box. put the wire form the
cooker socket into that then another wire from the junction box to the
cooker socket to extend it. then sink all into wall apart from cooker
socket.
thanks jason

You don't need a junction box but you should put a cooker switch where
the socket is and a cooker outlet lower down behind the oven. A
built-in oven needs to be wired in permanently and not plugged into a
socket. The hob can be connected the same way. You'll probably want to
chase the cable into the wall and tile over it behind the hob. External
trunking won't look very nice and isn't a good idea behind the hob
anyway.

The hood doesn't take much current so you can use a normal 13 amp
socket on the ring main (or on a spur).

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

Jason wrote:
i m fitting a new kitchen and it includes a build in electric oven
hob and cooker hood.
the cooker socket is half way up the wall not far from where the
cooker hood is being fitted.
so the cooker socker needs to be hidden lower down behind
the cooker.
is the a way to do it without taking all the plaster off the wall?
i think the wire runs down.
so do i just get a 45a rated 3 way junction box.
put the wire form the cooker socket into that then another wire from
the junction box to the cooker socket to extend it.
then sink all into wall apart from cooker socket.

LOL

You have asked this question 3 times before! How many cooker sockets do
you have?

First time was on June 6 2002

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...i nternet.com

Second time was on Jan 17th 2004

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ueyonder.co.uk

Third time was on Oct 12th 2004

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ueyonder.co.uk

And now this is the 4th time. Have you got it sorted yet?

In message ,
Richard Porter wrote:


You don't need a junction box but you should put a cooker switch where
the socket is and a cooker outlet lower down behind the oven.

Seems to be the most sensible advice so far :-)

A built-in oven needs to be wired in permanently and not plugged into
a socket.

I'm not suggesting you are completely wrong, but can you tell me why
this should be? In some ways I'd have thought it quite a good idea to
have an oven on a socket - most single built-in ovens only draw between
2 and 3kW anyway. I've done this with our "cooker" circuit: 32A, 6mm2
cable to Big Red Switch, but the other side of the switch is 6mm2 cable
running to a double 13A socket, one for the 2kW oven, one for the could
be run using a battery hob ignition. In many ways this is just a
standard 32A radial circuit which has the potential for easy upgrade in
the future to cater for an electric hob if necessary.

In the OP's case I'll concede that he is actually talking about an
electric hob and the standard solution I've seen is to wire hob and oven
in parallel to the cooker circuit outlet. Wiring the hob to the BRS and
using the outlet's socket for the oven means you have to show that the
currents add up, as the standard discrimination rule of "... plus 5A if
the control unit incorporates a socket outlet" is obviously going to be
broken in the case of a 2kW oven.

Saw a 90mm range cooker (gas hob/electric oven) the other day with a
moulded-on plug.

Using a socket for the oven makes for easier maintenance (just pull the
plug out to release the oven) and also provides some degree of
discrimination: a fault in (say) the oven should blow the 13A plug fuse
before the 32A main breaker.

It is also analogous to built-in appliances of other types which often
have heaters of 2kW or so and are often plugged into a socket (or
fused outlet) below worktop height which is controlled by a 20A switch
above the worktop.

[...]


The hood doesn't take much current so you can use a normal 13 amp
socket on the ring main (or on a spur).


Hmmm... and probably not a good idea to do as I have seen recently
where the (0.5mm2?) 2-core flex from the fan had been taken down behind
the tiles and connected into the electric hob's terminals.

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... CtrlAltDel to read the next message

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:56:24 +0100, Martin Angove wrote:

In message ,
Richard Porter wrote:


You don't need a junction box but you should put a cooker switch where
the socket is and a cooker outlet lower down behind the oven.

Seems to be the most sensible advice so far :-)

A built-in oven needs to be wired in permanently and not plugged into
a socket.

I'm not suggesting you are completely wrong, but can you tell me why
this should be? In some ways I'd have thought it quite a good idea to
have an oven on a socket - most single built-in ovens only draw between
2 and 3kW anyway. I've done this with our "cooker" circuit: 32A, 6mm2
cable to Big Red Switch, but the other side of the switch is 6mm2 cable
running to a double 13A socket, one for the 2kW oven, one for the could
be run using a battery hob ignition. In many ways this is just a
standard 32A radial circuit which has the potential for easy upgrade in
the future to cater for an electric hob if necessary.

In the OP's case I'll concede that he is actually talking about an
electric hob and the standard solution I've seen is to wire hob and oven
in parallel to the cooker circuit outlet. Wiring the hob to the BRS and
using the outlet's socket for the oven means you have to show that the
currents add up, as the standard discrimination rule of "... plus 5A if
the control unit incorporates a socket outlet" is obviously going to be
broken in the case of a 2kW oven.

Saw a 90mm range cooker (gas hob/electric oven) the other day with a
moulded-on plug.

Using a socket for the oven makes for easier maintenance (just pull the
plug out to release the oven) and also provides some degree of
discrimination: a fault in (say) the oven should blow the 13A plug fuse
before the 32A main breaker.

It is also analogous to built-in appliances of other types which often
have heaters of 2kW or so and are often plugged into a socket (or
fused outlet) below worktop height which is controlled by a 20A switch
above the worktop.

[...]


The hood doesn't take much current so you can use a normal 13 amp
socket on the ring main (or on a spur).


Hmmm... and probably not a good idea to do as I have seen recently
where the (0.5mm2?) 2-core flex from the fan had been taken down behind
the tiles and connected into the electric hob's terminals.

Hwyl!


As you say there is no reason why a single over with a rating of less than
13A should not be plugged into a ring socket.

As for supply both and elecric hob and the oven from a 32A radial this is
not a problem either. Whilst the total current draw for both appliances
may well be 50A diversity rules come info force.
Which IIRC for a domestic kitchen are 100% of the first 10A of full total
load + 30% of the remainder. That would make 22A expected load, in fact you
would have just enough capacity to wire a double socket (5A each) as well.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

A built-in oven needs to be wired in permanently and not plugged into
a socket.

I'm not suggesting you are completely wrong, but can you tell me why
this should be? In some ways I'd have thought it quite a good idea to
have an oven on a socket - most single built-in ovens only draw between
2 and 3kW anyway. I've done this with our "cooker" circuit: 32A, 6mm2
cable to Big Red Switch, but the other side of the switch is 6mm2 cable
running to a double 13A socket, one for the 2kW oven, one for the could
be run using a battery hob ignition. In many ways this is just a
standard 32A radial circuit which has the potential for easy upgrade in
the future to cater for an electric hob if necessary.

In the OP's case I'll concede that he is actually talking about an
electric hob and the standard solution I've seen is to wire hob and oven
in parallel to the cooker circuit outlet. Wiring the hob to the BRS and
using the outlet's socket for the oven means you have to show that the
currents add up, as the standard discrimination rule of "... plus 5A if
the control unit incorporates a socket outlet" is obviously going to be
broken in the case of a 2kW oven.

Saw a 90mm range cooker (gas hob/electric oven) the other day with a
moulded-on plug.

Using a socket for the oven makes for easier maintenance (just pull the
plug out to release the oven) and also provides some degree of
discrimination: a fault in (say) the oven should blow the 13A plug fuse
before the 32A main breaker.

It is also analogous to built-in appliances of other types which often
have heaters of 2kW or so and are often plugged into a socket (or
fused outlet) below worktop height which is controlled by a 20A switch
above the worktop.

[...]


The hood doesn't take much current so you can use a normal 13 amp
socket on the ring main (or on a spur).


Hmmm... and probably not a good idea to do as I have seen recently
where the (0.5mm2?) 2-core flex from the fan had been taken down behind
the tiles and connected into the electric hob's terminals.

Hwyl!

M.

The difference is that ovens like hoods and hobs are fixed appliances and
are required by the regs to be permantly connected via double pole isolation
(fused if necessary) which does not break the earth conductor. Plugtops are
for portable things you move around not fixed appliances. The range cooker
you mention is not built in and maybe moved so is connected with flexible
gas hose and a plugtop.

Peter

You don't need a junction box but you should put a cooker switch where
the socket is and a cooker outlet lower down behind the oven.

Seems to be the most sensible advice so far :-)

A built-in oven needs to be wired in permanently and not plugged into
a socket.

I'm not suggesting you are completely wrong, but can you tell me why
this should be? In some ways I'd have thought it quite a good idea to
have an oven on a socket - most single built-in ovens only draw between
2 and 3kW anyway. I've done this with our "cooker" circuit: 32A, 6mm2
cable to Big Red Switch, but the other side of the switch is 6mm2 cable
running to a double 13A socket, one for the 2kW oven, one for the could
be run using a battery hob ignition. In many ways this is just a
standard 32A radial circuit which has the potential for easy upgrade in
the future to cater for an electric hob if necessary.

In the OP's case I'll concede that he is actually talking about an
electric hob and the standard solution I've seen is to wire hob and oven
in parallel to the cooker circuit outlet. Wiring the hob to the BRS and
using the outlet's socket for the oven means you have to show that the
currents add up, as the standard discrimination rule of "... plus 5A if
the control unit incorporates a socket outlet" is obviously going to be
broken in the case of a 2kW oven.

Saw a 90mm range cooker (gas hob/electric oven) the other day with a
moulded-on plug.

Using a socket for the oven makes for easier maintenance (just pull the
plug out to release the oven) and also provides some degree of
discrimination: a fault in (say) the oven should blow the 13A plug fuse
before the 32A main breaker.

It is also analogous to built-in appliances of other types which often
have heaters of 2kW or so and are often plugged into a socket (or
fused outlet) below worktop height which is controlled by a 20A switch
above the worktop.

[...]


The hood doesn't take much current so you can use a normal 13 amp
socket on the ring main (or on a spur).


Hmmm... and probably not a good idea to do as I have seen recently
where the (0.5mm2?) 2-core flex from the fan had been taken down behind
the tiles and connected into the electric hob's terminals.

Hwyl!


As you say there is no reason why a single over with a rating of less than
13A should not be plugged into a ring socket.




No plugtops are for portable appliances regs require fixed appliances to be
connected permantly with double pole isolation that does not break the earth
conductor.

Peter

In article ,
Peter wrote:
No plugtops are for portable appliances regs require fixed appliances to
be connected permantly with double pole isolation that does not break
the earth conductor.

Care to define fixed and portable? I've got an electric toothbrush which
(the 'base station') is fixed to the wall. Should that be earth bonded and
isolated via a double pole switch? A wall mounted electric can opener?

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:31:50 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Peter wrote:
No plugtops are for portable appliances regs require fixed appliances to
be connected permantly with double pole isolation that does not break
the earth conductor.

Care to define fixed and portable? I've got an electric toothbrush which
(the 'base station') is fixed to the wall. Should that be earth bonded and
isolated via a double pole switch? A wall mounted electric can opener?

How portable is a built in microwave?
How portable is a washing machine?

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In message ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Peter wrote:
No plugtops are for portable appliances regs require fixed appliances to
be connected permantly with double pole isolation that does not break
the earth conductor.

Care to define fixed and portable? I've got an electric toothbrush which
(the 'base station') is fixed to the wall. Should that be earth bonded and
isolated via a double pole switch? A wall mounted electric can opener?


Part 2:

"Fixed equipment: Equipment designed to be fastened to a support or
otherwise secured in a specific location

"Portable equipment: Electrical equipment which is moved while in
operation or which can easily be moved from one place to another while
connected to the supply."

AFAICT chapter 46 is the main control, and this doesn't seem to make any
distinction between fixed and portable equipment for the purposes of
isolation and switching.

476-03-04 implies that fixed equipment can be connected by
plug-and-socket:

"Every fixed or stationary appliance which... is connected to the supply
other than by means of a plug and socket-outlet... shall be provided
with a means of interrupting the supply on load..."

It also says:

"This means may be incorporated in the appliance..."

Which might be taken as implying that (say) a dishwasher with a real
switch can be wired into the circuit without an external double-pole
switch :-)

476-03-04 relates to equipment which may give rise to a hazard in normal
use, so you'd need to be careful about its application. It also relates
to switching for safety.

Chapter 537 states (without reference to fixed and portable equipment)
that, apart from switching for emergencies, "A plug and socket-outlet of
rating not exceeding 16A may be used as a switching device."

Peter: I've spent a mere 20 minutes looking and may have missed the
regulation. Can you point me in the direction of the regulation which
requires "fixed" equipment to be connected *only* by permanent (i.e. not
plug and socket) means? How does this relate to built-in appliances in
the kitchen (washer, dishwosh, fridge, freezer, u-wave etc. etc. etc.)
or indeed elsewhere (a built-in TV, a projector permanently fixed to a
stand, a central vaccuum system, a low-voltage lighting system with
wall-wart power supply etc. etc. etc.)?

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a tagline writer.