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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Potterton
Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only
works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... |
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#2
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In article , Michael
writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... 'Err, chuck it out and pretend that its been pinched and claim on yer insurance for another one? Tony Sayer fellow Suprima 80 victim  -- |
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#3
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On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:48:58 +0100, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Michael writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... Try new reconned PCB from cetltd.com I'd have no faith the new PCB was any better than the original. There are Suprimas that do work OK. They seem to be the main choice for current new build (more fool them). -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
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In message , tony sayer
writes In article , Michael writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... 'Err, chuck it out and pretend that its been pinched and claim on yer insurance for another one? You'll be telling me next that there's a problem with Suprimas OP - sorry, a bit short on ideas on this one, unless there's an obstruction in the system, but then, the temperatures would prolly rise higher on re-ignition. Is the pump circulating the water properly? Are the LEDs behaving themselves? Is it a new pcb or one of mine ? (CET) One has to ask, why you didn't get the problem sorted while it was under warranty -- geoff |
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#5
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In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:48:58 +0100, tony sayer wrote: In article , Michael writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... Try new reconned PCB from cetltd.com I'd have no faith the new PCB was any better than the original. There are Suprimas that do work OK. They seem to be the main choice for current new build (more fool them). Thanks Ed, but basically you're measuring one resistance against another, and unless he's so extremely unfortunate to have two boards with a very rare fault, is extremely unlikely. I must admit to being stumped on this one as the OP has changed all the bits I would expect to be at fault. Having said this and had a ponder .... the temp sensor is delicate and may have been damaged OP - can you find out the resistance of the temp sensor at room temp and the resistance when it cuts out ? -- geoff |
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raden wrote in message ...
In message .uk, Ed Sirett writes On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:48:58 +0100, tony sayer wrote: In article , Michael writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... Try new reconned PCB from cetltd.com I'd have no faith the new PCB was any better than the original. There are Suprimas that do work OK. They seem to be the main choice for current new build (more fool them). Thanks Ed, but basically you're measuring one resistance against another, and unless he's so extremely unfortunate to have two boards with a very rare fault, is extremely unlikely. I must admit to being stumped on this one as the OP has changed all the bits I would expect to be at fault. Having said this and had a ponder ... the temp sensor is delicate and may have been damaged OP - can you find out the resistance of the temp sensor at room temp and the resistance when it cuts out ? -------------------------------- Thanks everyone once again, there must be a potterton guru who knows what the problem is. Surely replacing a suprima 50 for a suprima 80 would mean more heat meaning less higher heat setting required. Half setting for suprima 50, hot water after 30mins, now with suprima 80 full heat setting needs 1 hour for reasonable hot water only enough to keep your hands in a running tap. Not really hot enough. Same issue with the rads Why I did not get the problem sorted within the 1st year, well you can see no one actually knows what the problem is to apply a fix. So if any potterson guru meaning person working in the suprima design office at potterton/baxi should read this - please put us all out of our misery, well me anyway, by revealing to us the answer. For now, when the thing is knackered, the chance of the replacement being a potterton, well it's a bit like NASA putting men on Mars, fairly remote |
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#7
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In article , Michael
writes raden wrote in message ... In message .uk, Ed Sirett writes On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:48:58 +0100, tony sayer wrote: In article , Michael writes Hello folks! Yes its me again with the Potterton Suprima 80 which only works on full temp setting. And then the water temp only reaches 60degree before the boiler goes off for 5mins. Comes for a few mins when water out pipe from boiler reaches 45-50degree. Boiler is now 3 years, problem since new. Pump is set to fast speed, no problems with pump, no air in system either. Previously had supurima 50 which worked excellently with only half full temp setting, with all same pipe work. What has happened so far... 1. New PCB 2. New Temp Sensor 3. New temp control pot 4. Another new temp sensor 1-4 made no difference, same problem. Anyone with any advise welcome.... Try new reconned PCB from cetltd.com I'd have no faith the new PCB was any better than the original. There are Suprimas that do work OK. They seem to be the main choice for current new build (more fool them). Thanks Ed, but basically you're measuring one resistance against another, and unless he's so extremely unfortunate to have two boards with a very rare fault, is extremely unlikely. I must admit to being stumped on this one as the OP has changed all the bits I would expect to be at fault. Having said this and had a ponder ... the temp sensor is delicate and may have been damaged OP - can you find out the resistance of the temp sensor at room temp and the resistance when it cuts out ? -------------------------------- Thanks everyone once again, there must be a potterton guru who knows what the problem is. Surely replacing a suprima 50 for a suprima 80 would mean more heat meaning less higher heat setting required. Half setting for suprima 50, hot water after 30mins, now with suprima 80 full heat setting needs 1 hour for reasonable hot water only enough to keep your hands in a running tap. Not really hot enough. Same issue with the rads Why I did not get the problem sorted within the 1st year, well you can see no one actually knows what the problem is to apply a fix. So if any potterson guru meaning person working in the suprima design office at potterton/baxi should read this - please put us all out of our misery, well me anyway, by revealing to us the answer. For now, when the thing is knackered, the chance of the replacement being a potterton, well it's a bit like NASA putting men on Mars, fairly remote Why don't you write to them, recorded delivery, and ask them what they intend to do, hopefully they might send one of their staff round, before you throw it to the press or TV etc?. Course you won't do this, but it might wake them up, after all that PCB has been to total pile of cack right from the word go. -- Tony Sayer |
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#8
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In message , Michael
writes Thanks everyone once again, there must be a potterton guru who knows what the problem is. Surely replacing a suprima 50 for a suprima 80 would mean more heat meaning less higher heat setting required. Half setting for suprima 50, hot water after 30mins, now with suprima 80 full heat setting needs 1 hour for reasonable hot water only enough to keep your hands in a running tap. Not really hot enough. Same issue with the rads Why I did not get the problem sorted within the 1st year, well you can see no one actually knows what the problem is to apply a fix. So if any potterson guru meaning person working in the suprima design office at potterton/baxi should read this - please put us all out of our misery, well me anyway, by revealing to us the answer. Well, I'm prolly as close as you are likely to get in uk-diy, and I don't have an answer on the information you've given As for Baxi / (potterton) admitting any sort of problem - forget it They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas -- geoff |
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#9
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In article , raden
writes In message , Michael writes Thanks everyone once again, there must be a potterton guru who knows what the problem is. Surely replacing a suprima 50 for a suprima 80 would mean more heat meaning less higher heat setting required. Half setting for suprima 50, hot water after 30mins, now with suprima 80 full heat setting needs 1 hour for reasonable hot water only enough to keep your hands in a running tap. Not really hot enough. Same issue with the rads Why I did not get the problem sorted within the 1st year, well you can see no one actually knows what the problem is to apply a fix. So if any potterson guru meaning person working in the suprima design office at potterton/baxi should read this - please put us all out of our misery, well me anyway, by revealing to us the answer. Well, I'm prolly as close as you are likely to get in uk-diy, and I don't have an answer on the information you've given As for Baxi / (potterton) admitting any sort of problem - forget it They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas There're lying toads then. Feck 'em, next time we get a boiler there not on the guest list..... -- Tony Sayer |
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#10
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raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? Richard |
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#11
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"Richard Savage" wrote in message .. . raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... -- Malc |
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#12
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In message , Richard Savage
writes raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? I've not seen any, it takes time for them to filter through to me, it would make sense from their point of view, before victims actually get together and bring a class action I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. -- geoff |
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#13
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In message , Malc
writes "Richard Savage" wrote in message . .. raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... Were they totally ****e then? I think not They have gone a long way down hill recently, I know a lot of fitters who will no longer fit a Potterton boiler -- geoff |
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#14
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In article ,
raden wrote: Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... Were they totally ****e then? I think not I suppose the rot could have set in by then in R&D which took some time to filter through to production. Certainly their actual products until, what, the late '80s were among the best in class. I sometimes wish my old Kingfisher would fail so I was forced to fit a more efficient one.;-) -- *Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#15
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raden wrote in message ...
In message , Malc writes "Richard Savage" wrote in message . .. raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... Were they totally ****e then? I think not Fairly ****e yes. The boilers which generally speaking were designed much earlier, were reliable, the controls much less so. At one point we were selecting relays for the tank stats based on how slowly they would switch, the slower the better. If we weren't getting enough slow switching ones (for production) we'd adjust the timer so that more passed (or failed dependent on your view point). The potentiometer for the stats was a preset because the guys who designed them thought people would just set one temp then leave the stat alone which is not what happens. The stats and the EP range of controllers were powered by capacitive droppers to save money which let through mains spikes and cause the stats to blow up and the controllers to switch on permanently and.................... enough? -- MAlc |
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#17
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:07:23 GMT, raden wrote:
I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. Can't speak for every area, but I know that every house on Barratt estates in our area are fitted with Suprimas. And some other house builders too....that's a LOT of Suprimas. Will keep you in PCBs for ages, Geoff! Can you say "down to a price......."? -Rob |
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#18
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On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:07:23 +0000, raden wrote:
In message , Richard Savage writes raden wrote: They claim there is "no issue with the pcb" , despite the fact that half the pcbs I repair are Suprimas I was in my local Plumb Center 2 or 3 months ago and raised the subject of my Suprima 80 constantly tripping out (this was before I re-made every solder joint on the PCB thus fixing the fault). The bod behind the counter told me that last year Potterton changed PCB supplier and, wait for it, replaced all PCBs in Suprima boilers that were in store,. i.e. pre-delivery. Does that sound likely? I've not seen any, it takes time for them to filter through to me, it would make sense from their point of view, before victims actually get together and bring a class action I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. Yep, they are the in choice for all new builds, even the more upmarket builders. I think that Architects are specifying Poxi Battertons based on the Profile and Netaheat stuff from 20 years back. However next year there won't be anymore being fitted in new build 8-) It remains to be seen what condensing model is going to be... so long as its not the Baxi Barcelona.... As for the controls why would anyone want to fit an electronic tank stat, the hysteris of a normal bi-metal drayton/horstman/honeywell unit is useful. The low tech stuff is fine. OK the little neon showing 'sat'(isfied) is marginally helpful. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:50:31 +0100, "Ed Sirett"
wrote: Yep, they are the in choice for all new builds, even the more upmarket builders. I think that Architects are specifying Poxi Battertons based on the Profile and Netaheat stuff from 20 years back. However next year there won't be anymore being fitted in new build 8-) It remains to be seen what condensing model is going to be... so long as its not the Baxi Barcelona.... There could be a business opportunity though, just like Geoff has found with Suprima boards. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#20
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In message , Malc
writes raden wrote in message ... Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... Were they totally ****e then? I think not Fairly ****e yes. The boilers which generally speaking were designed much earlier, were reliable, the controls much less so. At one point we were selecting relays for the tank stats based on how slowly they would switch, the slower the better. If we weren't getting enough slow switching ones (for production) we'd adjust the timer so that more passed (or failed dependent on your view point). The potentiometer for the stats was a preset because the guys who designed them thought people would just set one temp then leave the stat alone which is not what happens. The stats and the EP range of controllers were powered by capacitive droppers As do at least half the control pcbs on a majority of boilers - really doesn't help when it comes to Suprimas -- geoff |
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#21
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In message , Andy Hall
writes On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:50:31 +0100, "Ed Sirett" wrote: Yep, they are the in choice for all new builds, even the more upmarket builders. I think that Architects are specifying Poxi Battertons based on the Profile and Netaheat stuff from 20 years back. However next year there won't be anymore being fitted in new build 8-) It remains to be seen what condensing model is going to be... so long as its not the Baxi Barcelona.... There could be a business opportunity though, just like Geoff has found with Suprima boards. .... And Barcelonas -- geoff |
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#22
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In message , Rob
writes On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:07:23 GMT, raden wrote: I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. Can't speak for every area, but I know that every house on Barratt estates in our area are fitted with Suprimas. And some other house builders too....that's a LOT of Suprimas. Will keep you in PCBs for ages, Geoff! Can you say "down to a price......."? ? -- geoff |
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#23
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"Pete C" wrote in message ... On 5 Oct 2004 00:34:22 -0700, (Malc) wrote: Were they totally ****e then? I think not Fairly ****e yes. LOL! The boilers which generally speaking were designed much earlier, were reliable, the controls much less so. At one point we were selecting relays for the tank stats based on how slowly they would switch, the slower the better. If we weren't getting enough slow switching ones (for production) we'd adjust the timer so that more passed (or failed dependent on your view point). Why do they need to switch slowly? Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. -- Malc |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:44:42 GMT, "Malc"
wrote: Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:41:06 GMT, raden wrote:
In message , Rob writes On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:07:23 GMT, raden wrote: I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. Can't speak for every area, but I know that every house on Barratt estates in our area are fitted with Suprimas. And some other house builders too....that's a LOT of Suprimas. Will keep you in PCBs for ages, Geoff! Can you say "down to a price......."? ? Houses/boilers built down to a price..... |
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In message , Andy Hall
writes On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:44:42 GMT, "Malc" wrote: Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such -- geoff |
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#27
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In message , Rob
writes On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:41:06 GMT, raden wrote: In message , Rob writes On Mon, 04 Oct 2004 23:07:23 GMT, raden wrote: I was told today that every Wimpy home in the UK built in the past X years is fitted with a Suprima ... should keep me going for a while. Can't speak for every area, but I know that every house on Barratt estates in our area are fitted with Suprimas. And some other house builders too....that's a LOT of Suprimas. Will keep you in PCBs for ages, Geoff! Can you say "down to a price......."? ? Houses/boilers built down to a price..... Ah, I see "'ere y'are mate, I'll give you a deal on 10,000 " you mean -- geoff |
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#28
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In article .uk,
Ed Sirett wrote: As for the controls why would anyone want to fit an electronic tank stat, the hysteris of a normal bi-metal drayton/horstman/honeywell unit is useful. The low tech stuff is fine. OK the little neon showing 'sat'(isfied) is marginally helpful. An electronic one is probably cheaper to make. When you're making millions of the things, it nearly comes down to just the cost of the raw materials and energy. -- *Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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raden wrote in message ...
Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such Cloff. Eventually they did but it was two years after I joined, and they'd set up their own electronics manufacturing facility (Enertech) in Redditch, that anything was done. And then the managing director had to step in and adjudicate between my boss and the director of Enertech who were playing politics over the design instead of pulling together. At one point my boss forbad me to talk to Enertech about the design which given that we were different parts of the same company I chose to ignore, which got me into more trouble. -- MAlc |
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In article , raden
writes In message , Andy Hall writes On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:44:42 GMT, "Malc" wrote: Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such IIRC Ford in the USofA had a car, the Pinto, that almost blew up in a rear end collision, apparently some bolts would tear the fuel tank apart. It seemed at the time it was cheaper for Ford not to modify production but to argue the accident claims. This was of course before litigation became the business it is today ..-- Tony Sayer |
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In article , Malc
writes raden wrote in message ... Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such Cloff. Eventually they did but it was two years after I joined, and they'd set up their own electronics manufacturing facility (Enertech) in Redditch, that anything was done. And then the managing director had to step in and adjudicate between my boss and the director of Enertech who were playing politics over the design instead of pulling together. At one point my boss forbad me to talk to Enertech about the design which given that we were different parts of the same company I chose to ignore, which got me into more trouble. Such is the best of British management. World class;( -- Tony Sayer |
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In article , raden
writes In message , Malc writes raden wrote in message ... Not having seen the start of this thread I'm wading in. I used to work for Potterton in the 80s in the R& D dept. A lot of their stuff was made down to a price to compete with electromechanical stats etc. The cheapest manufacturers were used at all points and some of the dodges used to make the first electronic tank stats work were ludicrous. I made myself quite unpopular with my boss by telling him so in a memo (first job out of uni too). I dunno if they are like that now of course but.... Were they totally ****e then? I think not Fairly ****e yes. The boilers which generally speaking were designed much earlier, were reliable, the controls much less so. At one point we were selecting relays for the tank stats based on how slowly they would switch, the slower the better. If we weren't getting enough slow switching ones (for production) we'd adjust the timer so that more passed (or failed dependent on your view point). The potentiometer for the stats was a preset because the guys who designed them thought people would just set one temp then leave the stat alone which is not what happens. The stats and the EP range of controllers were powered by capacitive droppers As do at least half the control pcbs on a majority of boilers - really doesn't help when it comes to Suprimas Capactive droppers or wattless droppers, are nothing new, they were used in TV 's years ago to drop the voltage required to the heater chain. Not a bad idea really..... -- Tony Sayer |
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In article ,
tony sayer wrote: Capactive droppers or wattless droppers, are nothing new, they were used in TV 's years ago to drop the voltage required to the heater chain. Not a bad idea really..... I've never seen this. All the ones I've had dealings with had series heaters with a series resistor. Some radios used special mains cord as the resistor. -- *Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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In article ,
tony sayer writes: IIRC Ford in the USofA had a car, the Pinto, that almost blew up in a rear end collision, apparently some bolts would tear the fuel tank apart. It seemed at the time it was cheaper for Ford not to modify production but to argue the accident claims. This was of course before litigation became the business it is today ..This was the case which changed that. ISTR Ford argued it would have cost them $125M to change the design of the fuel tank so the cars didn't all burst into flames on rear-end collisions, in a case where they were being sued by someone who was badly burned. So the Judge turned to them and said, in that case, the damages will be $125M to make it clear you will not use finiancial considerations in deciding if it's worth fixing a faulty design to save lifes/injuries. Ford had been expecting damages of well under a $1M based only on the injuries, loss of earnings, etc. and had calculated it was cheaper to pay the damages to many victims than to fix the design fault. This case changed that from then on. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , raden writes In message , Andy Hall writes On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:44:42 GMT, "Malc" wrote: Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such IIRC Ford in the USofA had a car, the Pinto, that almost blew up in a rear end collision, apparently some bolts would tear the fuel tank apart. It seemed at the time it was cheaper for Ford not to modify production but to argue the accident claims. They were knowlingly prepared to allow people to be killed because it was financially beneficial to them. I hate that company, have a look at what they have done through history. Scum of the earth. |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:44:42 GMT, "Malc"
wrote: Why do they need to switch slowly? Because it was a crap design basically. They used a capacitive dropper from each side of the output relay (i.e. from the NC and the NO contact but not the common) to provide power for the stat (both feeding into a common rectifier, zener and smoothing cap). In some modes of wiring a CH circuit it is possible for the power to arrive at the stat from the NC side of the relay, as I'm sure you know. In this case the power had to charge up the smoothing capacitor which kept power on the relay as it changed over. If the relay moved too quickly then there wasn't enough charge in the capacitor to power the relay across to the NO contact and it would oscillate and burn out the zener. If the circuit had been provided with bigger droppers and also a higher wattage zener then it would have been fine but in the interests of cheapness things were pared to the limit. As it was my job to analyse field returns I got to know the various failure modes by sight without having to test the stat. At one point we were running at 10% failure rate. ((In these situations it's best to marvel at the wonders of paid employment, but it's not easy to do as a graduate! But they're still in business so it shows how bad things can get without being terminal. What was the application? It sounds like it was designed for retrofitting if there was no provision for a separate mains feed to the circuit. Not easy to power a circuit from both sides of a relay alone. cheers, Pete. |
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On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:51:57 +0100, tony sayer
wrote: In article , raden writes In message , Andy Hall Didn't anybody ever apply a brain to this? Surely the cost of the returns in dealing with them would start to compare with the cost of a better design....... Andy you're on dangerous ground here, applying logic and such IIRC Ford in the USofA had a car, the Pinto, that almost blew up in a rear end collision, apparently some bolts would tear the fuel tank apart. It seemed at the time it was cheaper for Ford not to modify production but to argue the accident claims. This was of course before litigation became the business it is today ..Well.... they applied a brain at least, albeit not a heart. I've always had the view that if the running of business is dominated by one discipline (e.g. accountants, marketeers, engineers, sales) to the point where the others have little influence, then it will probably ultimately fail. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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Pete C wrote in message . ..
((In these situations it's best to marvel at the wonders of paid employment, but it's not easy to do as a graduate! But they're still in business so it shows how bad things can get without being terminal. What was the application? It sounds like it was designed for retrofitting if there was no provision for a separate mains feed to the circuit. Not easy to power a circuit from both sides of a relay alone. The controls were electronic equivalents of a standard bimetallic thermostat so they had to be retrofittable to an existing circuit and would not confuse a plumber who was not an electrician. -- Malc |
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On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 11:42:47 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote: On Wed, 6 Oct 2004 10:51:57 +0100, tony sayer wrote: IIRC Ford in the USofA had a car, the Pinto, that almost blew up in a rear end collision, apparently some bolts would tear the fuel tank apart. It seemed at the time it was cheaper for Ford not to modify production but to argue the accident claims. This was of course before litigation became the business it is today ..Not the only example sadly: http://www.officerjason.com/ http://www.officerjason.com/activism...203/index.html Well.... they applied a brain at least, albeit not a heart. I'd argue they have neither, it's those situations that corporate manslaughter laws and heavy fines on company profits are needed for. Another example closer to home: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=railtrack+%22project+destiny%22 + cheers, Pete. |
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