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OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 1:02:29 PM MST, "%" wrote
: On 2021-06-07 12:59 p.m., Snit wrote: FromTheRafters wrote: Commander Kinsey formulated on Monday : Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. I questioned this earlier as I was thinking about in the USA we have basically three vaccines. We have heard about bacteria being resistant due to overuse of antibacterials and antibiotics. This is a little different. The greatest threat is in the unvaccinated population who continue to harbor the virus, there will always be some for one reason or another. The bigger the host population the more the viruses environment shapes the newer generations. Resistance can build. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. This is no magic bullet, it is just another common-sense weapon in the battle against the virus. The good news is the vaccines seem to work better than first anticipated in terms of preventing the disease at all. i've had 3 shots already How much time is left on the shot clock? -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Snit wrote
Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: Its nothing like that simple now with the new more virulent strains. https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...h-covid19.html That doesnt say that it only needs to get to 70%. New York close to 70% Even that isnt clear. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...a-vaccine-dose That isnt saying that its close to 70%. That does clarify that it is just one shot, not both -- so they will still not be quite at the 70% *fully* vaccinated. And there is no evidence that the 70% is the required level. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 3:08:12 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : "Snit" wrote in message ... FromTheRafters wrote: Commander Kinsey formulated on Monday : Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. I questioned this earlier as I was thinking about in the USA we have basically three vaccines. We have heard about bacteria being resistant due to overuse of antibacterials and antibiotics. This is a little different. The greatest threat is in the unvaccinated population who continue to harbor the virus, there will always be some for one reason or another. The bigger the host population the more the viruses environment shapes the newer generations. Resistance can build. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. This is no magic bullet, it is just another common-sense weapon in the battle against the virus. The good news is the vaccines seem to work better than first anticipated in terms of preventing the disease at all. Not just seems to, has been proven to do that now. I could quibble over semantics and scientific terms, No you couldnt with that, it has been proven. but in general language agreed. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 4:24:07 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote
: Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: Its nothing like that simple now with the new more virulent strains. That is what I thought, but I have found multiple sources saying 70% is what they think would do it. In the past I had seen 80-90%. https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...h-covid19.html That doesnt say that it only needs to get to 70%. "What we know about coronavirus so far suggests that, if we were really to go back to a pre-pandemic lifestyle, we would need at least 70% of the population to be immune to keep the rate of infection down (achieve herd immunity) without restrictions on activities." New York close to 70% Even that isnt clear. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...a-vaccine-dose That isnt saying that its close to 70%. That does clarify that it is just one shot, not both -- so they will still not be quite at the 70% *fully* vaccinated. And there is no evidence that the 70% is the required level. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Snit wrote
Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: Its nothing like that simple now with the new more virulent strains. That is what I thought, Thats what is known. but I have found multiple sources saying 70% is what they think would do it. None that base that on any rigorous science. In the past I had seen 80-90%. Its even higher than that now with the new more virulent strains but not known with any certainty yet. https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...h-covid19.html That doesnt say that it only needs to get to 70%. "What we know about coronavirus so far suggests that, Suggests isnt your original absolute. if we were really to go back to a pre-pandemic lifestyle, we would need at least 70% of the population At least isnt the same as your original. to be immune to keep the rate of infection down (achieve herd immunity) without restrictions on activities." New York close to 70% Even that isnt clear. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...a-vaccine-dose That isnt saying that its close to 70%. Just one politician has made that claim without citing any scientific basis for making that claim. That does clarify that it is just one shot, not both -- so they will still not be quite at the 70% *fully* vaccinated. And there is no evidence that the 70% is the required level. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:02:46 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote
: Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: Its nothing like that simple now with the new more virulent strains. That is what I thought, Thats what is known. but I have found multiple sources saying 70% is what they think would do it. None that base that on any rigorous science. In the past I had seen 80-90%. Its even higher than that now with the new more virulent strains but not known with any certainty yet. I would not be surprised -- but do you have cites to back that? https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...h-covid19.html That doesnt say that it only needs to get to 70%. "What we know about coronavirus so far suggests that, Suggests isnt your original absolute. These comments are meant as best guesses, not absolutes. Welcome to English. :) if we were really to go back to a pre-pandemic lifestyle, we would need at least 70% of the population At least isnt the same as your original. to be immune to keep the rate of infection down (achieve herd immunity) without restrictions on activities." You ignored this part. New York close to 70% Even that isnt clear. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...a-vaccine-dose That isnt saying that its close to 70%. Just one politician has made that claim without citing any scientific basis for making that claim. Do you have contrary data? That does clarify that it is just one shot, not both -- so they will still not be quite at the 70% *fully* vaccinated. And there is no evidence that the 70% is the required level. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 4:33:19 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote
: "Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 3:08:12 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : "Snit" wrote in message ... FromTheRafters wrote: Commander Kinsey formulated on Monday : Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. I questioned this earlier as I was thinking about in the USA we have basically three vaccines. We have heard about bacteria being resistant due to overuse of antibacterials and antibiotics. This is a little different. The greatest threat is in the unvaccinated population who continue to harbor the virus, there will always be some for one reason or another. The bigger the host population the more the viruses environment shapes the newer generations. Resistance can build. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. This is no magic bullet, it is just another common-sense weapon in the battle against the virus. The good news is the vaccines seem to work better than first anticipated in terms of preventing the disease at all. Not just seems to, has been proven to do that now. I could quibble over semantics and scientific terms, No you couldnt with that, it has been proven. By all means show the proof (not just support). but in general language agreed. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Snit was thinking very hard :
On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
: Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Rod Speed was thinking very hard :
FromTheRafters wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. Nope, shows a complete misunderstanding of how viruses mutate. Only if you take his "everyone" literally and assume that it is 100 percent effective at preventing "hosting" the virus. It seems you don't understand how viruses mutate or how vaccines work. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Snit explained on 6/7/2021 :
On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote
: Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. -- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Snit expressed precisely :
On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. A relevant part: "At this point, data is not yet clear on whether the vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech, while highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease, also stop the spread of the virus. Herd immunity is only relevant if we have a transmission-blocking vaccine. If we dont, then the only way to get herd immunity in the population is to give everyone the vaccine, says Shweta Bansal, a mathematical biologist at Georgetown University in Washington D.C. In the U.S., the predominant variant now circulating is the B.1.1.7, which is about 60% more transmissible than the initial strain that first plagued our globe. Experts now believe a threshold of at least 80 percent of the population would need to be immune to significantly slow or stop the spread. That number could be even higher if more contagious variants continue to develop." |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:02:46 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: Its nothing like that simple now with the new more virulent strains. That is what I thought, Thats what is known. but I have found multiple sources saying 70% is what they think would do it. None that base that on any rigorous science. In the past I had seen 80-90%. Its even higher than that now with the new more virulent strains but not known with any certainty yet. I would not be surprised -- but do you have cites to back that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-...ants/100190414 https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/artic...h-covid19.html That doesnt say that it only needs to get to 70%. "What we know about coronavirus so far suggests that, Suggests isnt your original absolute. These comments are meant as best guesses, not absolutes. Easy to say after you have been picked up on your original claim. if we were really to go back to a pre-pandemic lifestyle, we would need at least 70% of the population At least isnt the same as your original. to be immune to keep the rate of infection down (achieve herd immunity) without restrictions on activities." You ignored this part. No need to comment on that bit, it was what herd immunity is about. New York close to 70% Even that isnt clear. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...a-vaccine-dose That isnt saying that its close to 70%. Just one politician has made that claim without citing any scientific basis for making that claim. Do you have contrary data? He made the claim. He gets to provide the data that substantiates that claim. Thats how it works. That does clarify that it is just one shot, not both -- so they will still not be quite at the 70% *fully* vaccinated. And there is no evidence that the 70% is the required level. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 4:33:19 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : "Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 3:08:12 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : "Snit" wrote in message ... FromTheRafters wrote: Commander Kinsey formulated on Monday : Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. I questioned this earlier as I was thinking about in the USA we have basically three vaccines. We have heard about bacteria being resistant due to overuse of antibacterials and antibiotics. This is a little different. The greatest threat is in the unvaccinated population who continue to harbor the virus, there will always be some for one reason or another. The bigger the host population the more the viruses environment shapes the newer generations. Resistance can build. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. This is no magic bullet, it is just another common-sense weapon in the battle against the virus. The good news is the vaccines seem to work better than first anticipated in terms of preventing the disease at all. Not just seems to, has been proven to do that now. I could quibble over semantics and scientific terms, No you couldnt with that, it has been proven. By all means show the proof (not just support). You are free to chase that up for yourself. but in general language agreed. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, There is no compromise involved. 85 to 90 percent is better And necessary with the newer more virulent strains. but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Corse a lower number is more doable. Not enough IMO. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. You do actually with the R0 of the new more virulent strains. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
FromTheRafters wrote
Rod Speed wrote FromTheRafters wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. Nope, shows a complete misunderstanding of how viruses mutate. Only if you take his "everyone" literally and assume that it is 100 percent effective at preventing "hosting" the virus. Doesn't need to be anything like 100% effective at reducing the chance of getting infected to radically reduce the number of hosts that the virus can reproduce in. That's the only way it can mutate, by reproducing. It seems you don't understand how viruses mutate My original statement is completely accurate. or how vaccines work. And so is my later elaboration on that too. The best of the covid vaccines have been shown to dramatically reduce the rate of covid infection in the vaccinated. They don't just reduce the rate of severe infection and death as you previously claimed in another of your posts. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"Snit" wrote in message ... On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. It isnt about immunity reduction, its about an increased R0 and we know that has happened, significantly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-...ants/100190414 |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Snit expressed precisely : On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. A relevant part: "At this point, data is not yet clear on whether the vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech, while highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease, also stop the spread of the virus. That part is just plain wrong. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...cines-do-reduc Herd immunity is only relevant if we have a transmission-blocking vaccine. And we now know that we do. If we dont, then the only way to get herd immunity in the population is to give everyone the vaccine, Thats wrong too. It doesnt need to be everyone and you get herd immunity if enough get infected too. says Shweta Bansal, a mathematical biologist at Georgetown University in Washington D.C. In the U.S., the predominant variant now circulating is the B.1.1.7, which is about 60% more transmissible than the initial strain that first plagued our globe. Experts now believe a threshold of at least 80 percent of the population would need to be immune to significantly slow or stop the spread. That number could be even higher if more contagious variants continue to develop." And its even higher again with the indian and brazil variants. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Rod Speed was thinking very hard :
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Snit expressed precisely : On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. A relevant part: "At this point, data is not yet clear on whether the vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech, while highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease, also stop the spread of the virus. That part is just plain wrong. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...cines-do-reduc So the words 'reduce' and 'stop' are synonyms to you? |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
on 6/7/2021, Rod Speed supposed :
FromTheRafters wrote Rod Speed wrote FromTheRafters wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. Nope, shows a complete misunderstanding of how viruses mutate. Only if you take his "everyone" literally and assume that it is 100 percent effective at preventing "hosting" the virus. Doesn't need to be anything like 100% effective at reducing the chance of getting infected to radically reduce the number of hosts that the virus can reproduce in. That's the only way it can mutate, by reproducing. Yes, it needs a host. It seems you don't understand how viruses mutate My original statement is completely accurate. I didn't say it wasn't, I said the OP had a good point. or how vaccines work. And so is my later elaboration on that too. The best of the covid vaccines have been shown to dramatically reduce the rate of covid infection in the vaccinated. They don't just reduce the rate of severe infection and death as you previously claimed in another of your posts. I didn't say that. I said: "vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others" This means that while hosting the virus their systems present an environmental selection against the currently targeted shapes of the various vaccines' antibodies. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Rod Speed was thinking very hard : "FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Snit expressed precisely : On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit was thinking very hard : On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote : Snit wrote Rod Speed wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. Exactly! So we should be using it sparingly. Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York. Amazing. Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York Gotta link ? Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. A relevant part: "At this point, data is not yet clear on whether the vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech, while highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease, also stop the spread of the virus. That part is just plain wrong. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...cines-do-reduc So the words 'reduce' and 'stop' are synonyms to you? Pathetic. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... on 6/7/2021, Rod Speed supposed : FromTheRafters wrote Rod Speed wrote FromTheRafters wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. Nope, shows a complete misunderstanding of how viruses mutate. Only if you take his "everyone" literally and assume that it is 100 percent effective at preventing "hosting" the virus. Doesn't need to be anything like 100% effective at reducing the chance of getting infected to radically reduce the number of hosts that the virus can reproduce in. That's the only way it can mutate, by reproducing. Yes, it needs a host. It seems you don't understand how viruses mutate My original statement is completely accurate. I didn't say it wasn't, I said the OP had a good point. or how vaccines work. And so is my later elaboration on that too. The best of the covid vaccines have been shown to dramatically reduce the rate of covid infection in the vaccinated. They don't just reduce the rate of severe infection and death as you previously claimed in another of your posts. I didn't say that. I said: "vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others" That wasn't your original post that I was referring to there. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
"FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... on 6/7/2021, Rod Speed supposed : FromTheRafters wrote Rod Speed wrote FromTheRafters wrote Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. Nope, shows a complete misunderstanding of how viruses mutate. Only if you take his "everyone" literally and assume that it is 100 percent effective at preventing "hosting" the virus. Doesn't need to be anything like 100% effective at reducing the chance of getting infected to radically reduce the number of hosts that the virus can reproduce in. That's the only way it can mutate, by reproducing. Yes, it needs a host. It seems you don't understand how viruses mutate My original statement is completely accurate. I didn't say it wasn't, I said the OP had a good point. or how vaccines work. And so is my later elaboration on that too. The best of the covid vaccines have been shown to dramatically reduce the rate of covid infection in the vaccinated. They don't just reduce the rate of severe infection and death as you previously claimed in another of your posts. I didn't say that. Yes you did, here it is again. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On 07/06/2021 22:06, Michael Chare wrote:
On 07/06/2021 21:02, % wrote: On 2021-06-07 12:59 p.m., Snit wrote: FromTheRafters wrote: Commander Kinsey formulated on Monday : Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine?* So we should be using it sparingly. Good point actually. I questioned this earlier as I was thinking about in the USA we have basically three vaccines. We have heard about bacteria being resistant due to overuse of antibacterials and antibiotics. This is a little different. The greatest threat is in the unvaccinated population who continue to harbor the virus, there will always be some for one reason or another. The bigger the host population the more the viruses environment shapes the newer generations. Resistance can build. The other point is, vaccinated people can still host the virus and spread it to others, they are just less likely to get the serious disease outcome than the unvaccinated. This is no magic bullet, it is just another common-sense weapon in the battle against the virus. The good news is the vaccines seem to work better than first anticipated in terms of preventing the disease at all. i've had 3 shots already an How did you manage that?* What does the NHS app tell you? The NHS app gives the date administered, name of vaccine and batch number Also has links to FAQs etc. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On 07/06/2021 23:03, Chris Bacon wrote:
On 07/06/2021 22:47, Joey wrote: "Chris Bacon" wrote in message ... On 07/06/2021 18:34, Richard wrote: On 07/06/2021 18:22, Commander Kinsey wrote: I've read that this virus is intelligent, like a motorist spotting a speedtrap and driving on a different route. Compared to you, it is intelligent. Does this person ever post anything DIY related, Nope. or am I safe to plonk the "rissole"? Yep. Well, the chances of two being wrong are smaller than the chance of one being wrong. TYVM. *Plonked*. I'd still like o see a good killfile config. Irony - complains about non-DIY posts, has to ask other people to make up his mind and can't do his own killfile. http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...essage_Filters HTH |
Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Yes and no. The problem is it mutates in any case, as RNA genetic sequences
are more error prone on copying than dna ones. Thus its swings and roundabouts. as has been proved with Flu. IE even if you did not get the yearly flu jab, some immunity remains but due to mutation you will still get ill, that is why they give a basket of various best guess mutations to you. The same effect will occur here, as has been proved with many other viruses including the close relative known as Sars 1. There is no perfect answer but we can respond faster than the virus can, as the virus is basically mutating all the time and its only those where mutations mean it can do its job better that stay in the population. All the common colds we get were probably once serious virus that would kill us, but over te years the immunity has improved faster than the mutations to get around these. You have to remember that viruses are not thinking creatures they are just driven by a simple chemical key that hijacks cells to make more virus. Its not clear why they exist, but in our universe, anything that can occur will occur, so looking for a reason is pointless. Brian -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Commander Kinsey" wrote in message ... Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. |
Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On 08/06/2021 07:52, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Yes and no. The problem is it mutates in any case, as RNA genetic sequences are more error prone on copying than dna ones. Thus its swings and roundabouts. as has been proved with Flu. IE even if you did not get the yearly flu jab, some immunity remains but due to mutation you will still get ill, that is why they give a basket of various best guess mutations to you. The same effect will occur here, as has been proved with many other viruses including the close relative known as Sars 1. There is no perfect answer but we can respond faster than the virus can, as the virus is basically mutating all the time and its only those where mutations mean it can do its job better that stay in the population. All the common colds we get were probably once serious virus that would kill us, but over te years the immunity has improved faster than the mutations to get around these. You have to remember that viruses are not thinking creatures they are just driven by a simple chemical key that hijacks cells to make more virus. Its not clear why they exist, but in our universe, anything that can occur will occur, so looking for a reason is pointless. Brian Nice to hear from you, Brian. Stay safe. :-D |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Chris Bacon wrote:
I'd still like o see a good killfile config. Everyone having a single killfile is like having a single vaccine, it makes it easier for the troll/vaccine to mutate ... |
Vaccine causes virus mutations?
Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote
Yes and no. No and no, actually. The problem is it mutates in any case, Viruses can only mutate in an infected person. as RNA genetic sequences are more error prone on copying than dna ones. Thus its swings and roundabouts. as has been proved with Flu. Nope, not with covid. IE even if you did not get the yearly flu jab, some immunity remains but due to mutation you will still get ill, that is why they give a basket of various best guess mutations to you. But so far only one covid strain has been shown to infect someone who has been previously infected. The same effect will occur here, Nope, for that reason. as has been proved with many other viruses including the close relative known as Sars 1. SARS didnt infect more than once. There is no perfect answer There is on that question he asked, vaccinate most people and it will no longer be a problem, as we have seen with measles, mumps, scarlet fever, yellow fever, polio, smallpox etc etc etc. but we can respond faster than the virus can, Its the reverse actually. as the virus is basically mutating all the time But not necessarily getting better all the time. and its only those where mutations mean it can do its job better that stay in the population. That mangles the real story too given that be best vaccines do currently appear to be effective against most or maybe even all the variants, unlike with flu. All the common colds we get were probably once serious virus that would kill us, Thats not true either. but over te years the immunity has improved faster than the mutations to get around these. If that was true, the common cold would have killed those savages who had no immunity when infected white men showed up and we know that didnt happen. You have to remember that viruses are not thinking creatures they are just driven by a simple chemical key that hijacks cells to make more virus. Its not clear why they exist, Basically they evolved, just like everything else did. but in our universe, anything that can occur will occur, Thats not true either. so looking for a reason is pointless. We already know the reason, evolution. Commander Kinsey wrote Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? So we should be using it sparingly. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On 08/06/2021 05:49, Richard wrote:
On 07/06/2021 23:03, Chris Bacon wrote: I'd still like o see a good killfile config. Irony - complains about non-DIY posts, has to ask other people to make up his mind and can't do his own killfile. Fancy re-inventing the wheel, Richard? I don't. http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...essage_Filters Didn't know about it. Have already got several killfiled. HTH Ta. |
OT: Vaccine causes virus mutations?
On 08/06/2021 04:08, FromTheRafters wrote:
Rod Speed was thinking very hard : "FromTheRafters" wrote in message ... Snit expressed precisely : On Jun 7, 2021 at 6:35:00 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : Snit explained on 6/7/2021 : *On Jun 7, 2021 at 5:44:27 PM MST, "FromTheRafters" wrote : *Snit was thinking very hard : * On Jun 7, 2021 at 12:44:04 PM MST, ""Rod Speed"" wrote * : * Snit wrote ** Rod Speed wrote ** Commander Kinsey wrote *** Doesn't giving a coronavirus vaccine to everyone increase the chances of the virus mutating to avoid the vaccine? ** Nope, it's the reverse of that, the virus can only mutate in infected people and so the fewer that get infected, the less the chance of it mutating. ** Exactly! *** So we should be using it sparingly. ** Nope, we should be vaccinating as many as possible with the best vaccines to reduce the number who get infected. ** Yup. And they are nearing what they think is herd immunity in New York.*** Amazing. * Dunno, nothing useful on that with https://www.google.com/search?q=herd...ty+in+New+York * Gotta link ? *Did more looking into this. Need 70% to get to herd immunity: *It is COVID fatigue causing compromises I think, 85 to 90 percent is better but 70 sounds more "doable" at this point in time. Not enough IMO. *I have the same feeling -- but no evidence to back it. https://www.biospace.com/article/exp...erd-immunity-/ I was thinking in terms of the US. But, yes, if there are mutations where the immunity is reduced then the idea of herd immunity goes out the window. A relevant part: "At this point, data is not yet clear on whether the vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech, while highly effective at preventing symptomatic disease, also stop the spread of the virus. That part is just plain wrong. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...cines-do-reduc So the words 'reduce' and 'stop' are synonyms to you? To be fair, reducing transmission may bring the rate down enough that the virus cannot transmit to enough hosts and dies out, so a reduction could cause a stop. |
Troll-feeding Disgusting Senile Blind MOLE Alert!
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 07:52:36 +0100, Brainless & Daft, the notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again: Yes and no. Yes, YOU disgusting troll-feeding senile cretin were still missing on the list of the troll-feeding sick assholes here! Do you blind swine know no shame at all? tsk |
Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 17:36:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Yes and no. No and no, actually. In auto-contradicting mode again, you abnormal trolling senile pest? LOL -- Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot: "Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?" MID: |
The TWO Resident Senile Bigmouths at Loggerheads, AGAIN! ROTFLOL
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 12:30:09 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the two senile pests usual endless idiotic senile **** -- Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rodent Speed: "Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it." MID: |
Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 12:46:54 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH yet more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed: "**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll." MID: |
The TWO Resident Senile Bigmouths at Loggerheads, AGAIN! ROTFLOL
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 12:31:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH more of the two senile pests' usual endless idiotic senile **** -- Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak": "Thats because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******." Message-ID: |
Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 13:48:53 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread -- Sqwertz to Rodent Speed: "This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative asshole. MID: |
Lonely Obnoxious Cantankerous Auto-contradicting Senile Ozzie Troll Alert!
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 13:44:54 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: Pathetic. Your trolling certainly is, you pathetic octogenerian senile troll! -- Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed: "**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll." MID: |
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