In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

Assuming you are talking about public health considerations, that surely
has to be a tiny effect

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use
is just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity
than gas.

given that gas is one of the fuels that we use to make electricity, and
making electricity costs money

How much does wind cost?

it's simple economics that supply of manufactured electricity will cost
more than raw gas

That depends on how much the gas costs to find and extract. At one time it
was an unwanted by product of oil extraction. And may well still be
subsidised by that.

It's expecting anything else that is daft





--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it
was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where they
can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain areas.

On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever
it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising,

While it's anecdotal evidence, I have known a few friends who gave up
smoking to then suffer from asthma. In one case their doctor said it's
no an unusual consequence.

while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where they
can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain areas.

An interesting observation.

On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever
it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where they
can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

On 25/05/2021 15:38, Andrew wrote:
On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that
unfortunate girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to
(only) the self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the
pollution which killed her, though it might (or might not) have
exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the
Mersey Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in
those days, and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded
by dwellings burning coal in grates and various industrial premises,
including a nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where
they can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain
areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

I did find some figures a while ago and they showed that NO2 levels were
down about 28% since 2010 and 43% since 2000.

On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:
On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that
unfortunate girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to
(only) the self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the
pollution which killed her, though it might (or might not) have
exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the
Mersey Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in
those days, and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded
by dwellings burning coal in grates and various industrial premises,
including a nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where
they can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain
areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

On 25/05/2021 16:18, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:
On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that
unfortunate girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to
(only) the self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the
pollution which killed her, though it might (or might not) have
exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the
Mersey Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in
those days, and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded
by dwellings burning coal in grates and various industrial premises,
including a nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where
they can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering
certain areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

You mean bribing them with zero or V low car tax, which was the *only*
reason people bought diesel cars. Anyone with a brain would have known
that any reduction on CO2 would be massively outweighed by an huge
increase in NO2 and diesel smoke.

On 25/05/2021 04:22 pm, Andrew wrote:
On 25/05/2021 16:18, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:
On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road,
but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that
unfortunate girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to
(only) the self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the
pollution which killed her, though it might (or might not) have
exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the
Mersey Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in
those days, and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded
by dwellings burning coal in grates and various industrial
premises, including a nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where
they can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering
certain areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

You mean bribing them with zero or V low car tax, which was the *only*
reason people bought diesel cars.

I don't agree. I bought my first diesel motor car in 1986. There was
then no Road Tax advantage, but compared with the petrol-engined
version, there was a noticeable improvement in mpg and at that time,
diesel was cheaper than four star.

I haven't heard of any diesel cars with £0 Road Tax, but the RT on mine
is £20 a year.

Anyone with a brain would have known
that any reduction on CO2 would be massively outweighed by an huge
increase in NO2 and diesel smoke.

That's the sort of thing which should be known to the government, surely?

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 25/05/2021 16:18, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:
On 24/05/2021 19:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 24/05/2021 17:49, JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road,
but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that
pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever
it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

I have thought it very odd that asthma rates have been rising, while
vehicle emission controls have been improving and and all forms of
vehicle pollution have actually been falling significantly, yet the
action seems to be to pillory the motorist, restrict when and where
they can drive and charge them punitive penalties for entering certain
areas.

You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

You mean bribing them with zero or V low car tax, which was the *only*
reason people bought diesel cars.

Nope, some chose them for the better fuel economy
and what they regarded as better drivability.

Anyone with a brain would have known that any reduction on CO2 would be
massively outweighed by an huge increase in NO2 and diesel smoke.

Few car buyers knew anything about NO2.

On 25/05/2021 16:18, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:


You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago.

Of course not. its only really an issue in uber lean burn eco engines.

Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

No,m the older clinker are fine. Its the eco clunkers that cause the crap

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

Of course. the manufacturers wanted to sell new cars so diesel was
lobbied for. Then when everyone had one, they legislated to not have them!

Simples!

Nothing to do with pollution. Everything to do with profit.

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/05/2021 16:18, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 03:38 pm, Andrew wrote:


You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago.

Of course not. its only really an issue in uber lean burn eco engines.

Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

No,m the older clinker are fine. Its the eco clunkers that cause the crap

my 5yo Mazda is exempt from the London pollution charge.
I went to diesel (early 1990s) since doing around 20,000 miles per year, it
was cheaper to run than a petrol beast.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

Yes. From those in government who don't want to know about different types
of pollution. A diesel generally produces less CO2 than the equivalent
petrol, but more NOx and of course particulates.

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/05/2021 04:59 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

JNugent wrote:
You only need to walk along the side of a busy road to notice the pong
on NO2. This wasn't the case 20 years ago. Now There are 10+ million
diesel engined cars on the road and the vast majority are not EU6
compliant. There needs a massive cull of older diesel clunkers.

It's really odd, because until only a handful of years ago, the
government was doing all it could to encourage buyers to buy diesel.

Yes. From those in government who don't want to know about different types
of pollution. A diesel generally produces less CO2 than the equivalent
petrol, but more NOx and of course particulates.

"Gordon Brown" was the chap's name.

JNugent wrote:
We all managed to survive.

Of course, if anyone had actually died, they'd be
sure to post here and let us know they disagreed.

#Paul

On 24/05/2021 10:09 pm, #Paul wrote:

JNugent wrote:

We all managed to survive.

Of course, if anyone had actually died, they'd be
sure to post here and let us know they disagreed.

#Paul

The survivors might.

But we were all survivors.

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main
road, but several different types of sources will have contributed to
that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it
was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

The human body can be damaged long term by some types of pollution, but
still 'survive'. And not all will be equally effected.

Lead was a prime example.

It's similar to Covid. 'I've not caught it, therefore all these
precautions are stupid, and disrupt my life'

--
*Pentium wise, pen and paper foolish *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 25 May 2021 10:41:07 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main
road, but several different types of sources will have contributed to
that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it
was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

The human body can be damaged long term by some types of pollution, but
still 'survive'. And not all will be equally effected.

Lead was a prime example.

It's similar to Covid. 'I've not caught it, therefore all these
precautions are stupid, and disrupt my life'


Especially some immigrants who may come from a relatively simple life
style and with genes not adapted to cope with the environment they find
themselves in.

On 25/05/2021 10:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main
road, but several different types of sources will have contributed to
that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it
was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

The human body can be damaged long term by some types of pollution, but
still 'survive'. And not all will be equally effected.

Lead was a prime example.

It's similar to Covid. 'I've not caught it, therefore all these
precautions are stupid, and disrupt my life'


How do you know you didn't 'catch it' ?. Lots of people get no
symptoms and not just young people.

On 25/05/2021 10:41 am, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of
course transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main
road, but several different types of sources will have contributed to
that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it
was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

The human body can be damaged long term by some types of pollution, but
still 'survive'. And not all will be equally effected.

Lead was a prime example.

Now prohibited in motor spirit.

I am aware that some used to cite it as a reason for observed low IQ
among inner city children.

It's similar to Covid. 'I've not caught it, therefore all these
precautions are stupid, and disrupt my life'

Ee... it were all that "polio" when I were a lad (I do remember a class
mate who'd had it).

And Diphtheria. And Tuberculosis.

Of course, there was always Scarlet Fever, Chickenpox and Measles.

On 25/05/2021 16:16, JNugent wrote:
On 25/05/2021 10:41 am, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
..

It's similar to Covid. 'I've not caught it, therefore all these
precautions are stupid, and disrupt my life'

Ee... it were all that "polio" when I were a lad (I do remember a class
mate who'd had it).

Oh yes. Laura. Walked on crutches with leg braces and had the most
painful pinch of any 8 year old

And Diphtheria. And Tuberculosis.

Of course, there was always Scarlet Fever, Chickenpox and Measles.

Had all those. And worse. Whooping cough. ****ed my lungs permanently.


--
€œPeople believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, ones
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
ones suitability to be taken seriously.€�

Paul Krugman