https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is just
daft

On Tue, 18 May 2021 11:34:53 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is just
daft

Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

On 18/05/2021 11:42, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2021 11:34:53 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is just
daft

Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

It's worse than that. A gas boiler is 80-96% efficient. Generating
electricity from fossil fuel is ~30% taking into account generation and
transmission.

Until we are 60+% non-fossil fuelled electricity generation more carbon
will be thrown into the atmosphere if we are force to move to electric
heating.

1) Yes I know air/ground sourced heating is available with improved
efficiency.

2) Car battery charging is going to require more electrical generation
which is already limited and no plans to build more generating plant.

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

It's worse than that. A gas boiler is 80-96% efficient. Generating
electricity from fossil fuel is ~30% taking into account generation and
transmission.

Is this really the case with electricity generated with gas, so like for
like?

And how about the energy used to get the gas from wherever to your house?

If making meaningful comparisons, best to start with a level playing field.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/05/2021 13:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

It's worse than that. A gas boiler is 80-96% efficient. Generating
electricity from fossil fuel is ~30% taking into account generation and
transmission.

Is this really the case with electricity generated with gas, so like for
like?

I guess overall there is little to choose from, apart from a lot of
complex hardware at each end.

And how about the energy used to get the gas from wherever to your house?

Good question. The thing with gas is the pipelines are used to even out
use over time, essentially a means of storage.

If making meaningful comparisons, best to start with a level playing field.

I agree, but not everyone is going to have access to ground or allowed
to place large fan units on their building.

I would wager that most systems will have a cooling capability, which
will increase electricity consumption in the summer.

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 May 2021 11:34:53 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just
daft

Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

Gas isn't the worst non-renewable

So, It isn't just the amount of electricity that's produced by gas that's
important, it's the amount that produced by anything that isn't renewable.

and whilst the amount of the current electricity demand is moving to
renewable, where's the supply for the 100% increase [1] in amount needed
when everybody move from gas to electric, going to come from?

tim

[1] I use approx the same number of kWh of gas per year, space and water
heating, as I do electric on everything else. And I have a *very* well
insulated house.

On Wed, 19 May 2021 08:17:59 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 18 May 2021 11:34:53 +0100, "tim..."
wrote:



"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just
daft

Not following your line of thought here. AIUI gas boilers are 100%
gas and electricity generation is far less than 100% gas - and
declining..

Gas isn't the worst non-renewable

So, It isn't just the amount of electricity that's produced by gas that's
important, it's the amount that produced by anything that isn't renewable.

How much gas is produced by non-renewables and is this reducing over
time?

and whilst the amount of the current electricity demand is moving to
renewable, where's the supply for the 100% increase [1] in amount needed
when everybody move from gas to electric, going to come from?

It won't all be coming from gas.

[1] I use approx the same number of kWh of gas per year, space and water
heating, as I do electric on everything else. And I have a *very* well
insulated house.

On 18/05/2021 11:34, tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft



ArtStudents„¢ like to build a houses interior decor and layout before
they do the foundations or the roof.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

It depends on what you mean by pollution? There are places where NOx
emissions are significant from NG boilers. Perhaps ban them from cities? :-)

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

Why when generating electricity creates more CO2?

In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

It depends on what you mean by pollution? There are places where NOx
emissions are significant from NG boilers. Perhaps ban them from cities? :-)

Any NOx generation may be regarded as significant. The amount a boiler
generates can also depend on its age and condition.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

Why when generating electricity creates more CO2?

Well, electricity can do most things where energy is needed. Gas not so -
unless that nice Mr Bayliss also invented a gas radio.

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/05/2021 16:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxx wrote:
On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

It depends on what you mean by pollution? There are places where NOx
emissions are significant from NG boilers. Perhaps ban them from cities? :-)

Any NOx generation may be regarded as significant. The amount a boiler
generates can also depend on its age and condition.

The newer ones are worse. Old boilers with an excess of air had a colder
flame and produced less NOx.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

Why when generating electricity creates more CO2?

Well, electricity can do most things where energy is needed. Gas not so -
unless that nice Mr Bayliss also invented a gas radio.

Yes it can do more things but at a cost, such as producing more CO2. I
thought we wanted to decrease CO2 production, not advocate an increase.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

Assuming you are talking about public health considerations, that surely has
to be a tiny effect

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

given that gas is one of the fuels that we use to make electricity, and
making electricity costs money

it's simple economics that supply of manufactured electricity will cost more
than raw gas

It's expecting anything else that is daft

In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

Assuming you are talking about public health considerations, that surely
has to be a tiny effect

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use
is just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity
than gas.

given that gas is one of the fuels that we use to make electricity, and
making electricity costs money

How much does wind cost?

it's simple economics that supply of manufactured electricity will cost
more than raw gas

That depends on how much the gas costs to find and extract. At one time it
was an unwanted by product of oil extraction. And may well still be
subsidised by that.

It's expecting anything else that is daft





--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/05/2021 01:55 pm, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

[ ... ]

When the coroner in London ruled that the little girl who died a few
months ago was due to pollution, there was quite a local fuss. Of course
transport got the blame since she lived close to a busy main road, but
several different types of sources will have contributed to that pollution.

And unless lots of other people in the location where that unfortunate
girl lived are dropping like flies, falling victim to (only) the
self-same "pollution", then it was probably not the pollution which
killed her, though it might (or might not) have exacerbated whatever it was.

For a time when I was a boy, we used to live directly on the A59 in
central Liverpool, less than a hundred and fifty yards from the Mersey
Tunnel entrance. There were almost no emission controls in those days,
and as well as traffic (lots of it), we were surrounded by dwellings
burning coal in grates and various industrial premises, including a
nearby brewery, all doing the same.

We all managed to survive.

On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

That's mostly down to the second law of thermodynamics.

Efficiency = (input temp - output temp)/(input temp) for a heat engine.

A gas power station is 30-50% efficient, the rest being waste heat
unless you can use it for something like district heating.

--
Max Demian

On 19/05/2021 12:25, Max Demian wrote:
A gas power station is 30-50% efficient, the rest being waste heat
unless you can use it for something like district heating.

OCGT is 37%¸ strap a steam boiler in the exhaust (CCGT) and its over 60%
when run constantly as baseload.

Of course, when run in 'whore's drawers' mode to back up intermittent
renewables, its back down to not much over 45%...


--
€œIdeas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

That's mostly down to the second law of thermodynamics.

Efficiency = (input temp - output temp)/(input temp) for a heat engine.

A gas power station is 30-50% efficient, the rest being waste heat
unless you can use it for something like district heating.

If that is the case, burning it directly to heat our homes etc makes more
sense.

--
*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/05/2021 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 18/05/2021 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tim... wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

It can make sense to reduce local pollution.

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

What is daft is charging a higher price per kilowatt of electricity than
gas.

That's mostly down to the second law of thermodynamics.

Efficiency = (input temp - output temp)/(input temp) for a heat engine.

A gas power station is 30-50% efficient, the rest being waste heat
unless you can use it for something like district heating.

If that is the case, burning it directly to heat our homes etc makes more
sense.

It always is unless a zero carbon way of generating electricity is used.

--
Max Demian

As I said in another thread, it won't happen, at least not at much of a
speed as everyone will get their boilers fitted before hand and its going to
be theier slow demise that they hope will allow time to ramp up generation,
but Unless they use portable nuclear I cannot see how, Turn the English
channel into a tidal power station perhaps? grin.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57149059

yup

banning gas boilers only makes any sense when 100% of UK electricity
production is carbon free

until it is, simply transferring gas use to additional electric use is
just daft

On 18/05/2021 17:45, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
As I said in another thread, it won't happen, at least not at much of a
speed as everyone will get their boilers fitted before hand and its going to
be theier slow demise that they hope will allow time to ramp up generation,
but Unless they use portable nuclear I cannot see how, Turn the English
channel into a tidal power station perhaps? grin.
Brian

The basic problem, on top of the intermittency, is that tidal power
requires robust infrastructure to cope with weather extremes, so the
capital cost is high. A Severn Barrage would be rather like the Channel
Tunnel, not cost effective as a project but once built a great asset
because you could run a motorway and/or railway across it. Also, while
it would be great for sailors and other aquatic leisure activities, it's
not so good for Slimbrige and the birders.