I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

George

On 03/04/2021 17:15, George Miles wrote:
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

George


You will simply make the cellar colder and then heat will
transfer from the house.

I don't think it is a good idea. Outside, ideally on a
South or South West aspect sheltered from North/Easterly
winds would be ideal.

If you had any land then installing at one end of a closed
polytunnel might work too, but if you had any decent land
then a ground source heat pump might be a better bet,
depending on your location and soil type. Nice sticky
clay is best (AFAIK).

"George Miles" wrote in message
...
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

Daft. The conductivity of the earth is poor.

You can get around that with non air sourced heat pumps
because the ground coils are sized to work properly but
that isnt possible with a cellar.

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 04:50:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID:

Rod Speed wrote:


"George Miles" wrote in message
...
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

Daft. The conductivity of the earth is poor.

You can get around that with non air sourced heat pumps
because the ground coils are sized to work properly but
that isnt possible with a cellar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

"The top of the geothermal gradient is influenced by
atmospheric temperature. The uppermost layers of the
solid planet are at the temperature produced by the
local weather, decaying to approximately the annual
mean-average temperature (MATT) at a shallow depth;

it is this depth which is used for many ground-source heat pumps,
sometimes loosely referred to as "geothermal heat pumps" by
laypeople. The top hundreds of meters reflect past climate change;

descending further, warmth increases steadily as interior
heat sources begin to dominate."

Now, get diggin :-) Your free energy awaits.

Um, you'll probably have to dig lower than the cellar...

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"George Miles" wrote in message
...
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

Daft. The conductivity of the earth is poor.

You can get around that with non air sourced heat pumps
because the ground coils are sized to work properly but
that isnt possible with a cellar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient

"The top of the geothermal gradient is influenced by
atmospheric temperature. The uppermost layers of the
solid planet are at the temperature produced by the
local weather, decaying to approximately the annual
mean-average temperature (MATT) at a shallow depth;

it is this depth which is used for many ground-source heat pumps,
sometimes loosely referred to as "geothermal heat pumps" by
laypeople. The top hundreds of meters reflect past climate change;

descending further, warmth increases steadily as interior
heat sources begin to dominate."

Yeah, its a well known effect with the deepest mines.

Now, get diggin :-) Your free energy awaits.

Um, you'll probably have to dig lower than the cellar...

Just a tad.

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 07:47:19 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



Um, you'll probably have to dig lower than the cellar...

Just a tad.

Three feet deep should be enough to get rid of you for good, you subnormal
senile troll!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

Andrew wrote:
On 03/04/2021 17:15, George Miles wrote:
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

You will simply make the cellar colder and then heat will
transfer from the house.

Sounds like an excellent way to make a walk-in freezer, but won't do much
for efficiency or heating the house.

If you had any land then installing at one end of a closed
polytunnel might work too, but if you had any decent land
then a ground source heat pump might be a better bet,
depending on your location and soil type. Nice sticky
clay is best (AFAIK).

You need about 1m3/second of air flow, and if any of that is not at ambient
temperature then efficiency will nosedive. So a polytunnel is unlikely to
work, especially when overcast or at night, This is also why installing a
duct from the outside to an ASHP in the cellar is unlikely to work unless
the duct is ~0.5m across.

If you have the land ground source is generally more efficient, although
there are issues if you take out too much heat in winter that the land
doesn't recover in the summer, so the loop needs to be properly sized.

Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

Theo

In message , Theo
writes
Andrew wrote:
On 03/04/2021 17:15, George Miles wrote:
I was thinking if i ever get a Air Source heat pump
then maybe have the inlet pipe in the cellar?

Because in the winter the cellar is warmer than the house,
- it gets heat from the earth.

Is this a good idea or daft?

You will simply make the cellar colder and then heat will
transfer from the house.

Sounds like an excellent way to make a walk-in freezer, but won't do much
for efficiency or heating the house.

If you had any land then installing at one end of a closed
polytunnel might work too, but if you had any decent land
then a ground source heat pump might be a better bet,
depending on your location and soil type. Nice sticky
clay is best (AFAIK).

You need about 1m3/second of air flow, and if any of that is not at ambient
temperature then efficiency will nosedive. So a polytunnel is unlikely to
work, especially when overcast or at night, This is also why installing a
duct from the outside to an ASHP in the cellar is unlikely to work unless
the duct is ~0.5m across.

If you have the land ground source is generally more efficient, although
there are issues if you take out too much heat in winter that the land
doesn't recover in the summer, so the loop needs to be properly sized.

Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

I have a river:-)
I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it. Actually
warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.


--
Tim Lamb

On 04/04/2021 20:40, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Theo
snip
Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

I have a river:-)
Â*I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it. Actually
warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.



I don't see why in principle given it's being done up and down the
country by various councils.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:
On 04/04/2021 20:40, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Theo snip
Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

I have a river:-)
I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it. Actually
warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.



I don't see why in principle given it's being done up and down the
country by various councils.

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/heat-pu...urce-heat-pump

"Depending on the type of heat pump, either the water from a river
or small stream is pumped through the heat pump, or a special
refrigerant fluid is pumped through pipes laid in the body of water.

While both have their own advantages, the latter type requires
less maintenance and an easier application process, making it
a cheaper option."

"Environmental Legislation to Keep in Mind

Specific environmental regulations and considerations must be addressed
before installing water source heat pumps. Open-loop systems alter the
temperature of groundwater, while thermal plumes affect hydrochemistry
and bacteriology.

Depending on the type of system you wish to install, licenses may be
required. For example, hydrogeology and thermal properties have to be
investigated, and they require a license to examine groundwater and
an abstraction license (permission of diverting surface or groundwater)
which can be obtained from the Environment Authority."

That last paragraph, can be a bitch.

Paul

On 05/04/2021 13:28, Paul wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 04/04/2021 20:40, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Theo snip
Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

I have a river:-)
Â* I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it. Actually
warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.



I don't see why in principle given it's being done up and down the
country by various councils.

https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/heat-pu...urce-heat-pump

Â* "Depending on the type of heat pump, either the water from a river
Â*Â* or small stream is pumped through the heat pump, or a special
Â*Â* refrigerant fluid is pumped through pipes laid in the body of water.

Â*Â* While both have their own advantages, the latter type requires
Â*Â* less maintenance and an easier application process, making it
Â*Â* a cheaper option."

Â* "Environmental Legislation to Keep in Mind

Â*Â* Specific environmental regulations and considerations must be addressed
Â*Â* before installing water source heat pumps. Open-loop systems alter the
Â*Â* temperature of groundwater, while thermal plumes affect hydrochemistry
Â*Â* and bacteriology.

Â*Â* Depending on the type of system you wish to install, licenses may be
Â*Â* required. For example, hydrogeology and thermal properties have to be
Â*Â* investigated, and they require a license to examine groundwater and
Â*Â* an abstraction license (permission of diverting surface or groundwater)
Â*Â* which can be obtained from the Environment Authority."

That last paragraph, can be a bitch.


True. As so often, no pain = no gain But I thought (perhaps wrongly)
that Tim was already familiar with abstraction licences. And there are
some simplifications for systems for single domestic properties. See
under "Surface water open-loop heat pump systems for a single domestic
property" at
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-loop-heat-pump-systems-permits-consents-and-licences#standard-rules-permits-for-surface-water-systems






--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In message , Robin
writes
On 04/04/2021 20:40, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Theo snip
Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.
I have a river:-)
*I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it. Actually
warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.



I don't see why in principle given it's being done up and down the
country by various councils.

I have not really explored this. We own both banks of a non navigable
stream for about 200m and a single bank for about 1000m.
The rules kindly allow me to extract up to 20cu.m/day. I think someone
once worked out the extractable energy which at Winter temperatures was
quite low.
Inserting heat exchangers into the stream bed has not been tested but
their first quibble will be anti-freeze chemicals (salt?).

The other issue is having a heat requirement close to the bank which I
don't currently have.

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Robin
writes
On 05/04/2021 13:28, Paul wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 04/04/2021 20:40, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Theo snip
Water source is best, if you have a lake or river available.

I have a river:-)
* I suspect the EA may object to me extracting heat from it.
Actually warmer than spring fed due to upstream sewage treatment.



I don't see why in principle given it's being done up and down the
country by various councils.
https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/heat-pu...urce-heat-pump
* "Depending on the type of heat pump, either the water from a
river
** or small stream is pumped through the heat pump, or a special
** refrigerant fluid is pumped through pipes laid in the body of water.
** While both have their own advantages, the latter type requires
** less maintenance and an easier application process, making it
** a cheaper option."
* "Environmental Legislation to Keep in Mind
** Specific environmental regulations and considerations must be
addressed
** before installing water source heat pumps. Open-loop systems alter the
** temperature of groundwater, while thermal plumes affect hydrochemistry
** and bacteriology.
** Depending on the type of system you wish to install, licenses
may be
** required. For example, hydrogeology and thermal properties have to be
** investigated, and they require a license to examine groundwater and
** an abstraction license (permission of diverting surface or groundwater)
** which can be obtained from the Environment Authority."
That last paragraph, can be a bitch.


True. As so often, no pain = no gain But I thought (perhaps
wrongly) that Tim was already familiar with abstraction licences. And
there are some simplifications for systems for single domestic
properties. See under "Surface water open-loop heat pump systems for a
single domestic property" at
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-loo...ermits-consent
s-and-licences#standard-rules-permits-for-surface-water-systems

I have not looked at this for some years. Any application here would be
for space heating barns used for light industrial purposes.

My current tenants work mainly offsite and manage with localised heating
for gluing/painting jobs.

Come 2025 when such buildings have to meet a standard of insulation not
required for agriculture, fans and sh1t will meet:-(



--
Tim Lamb