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Mains failure
Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting
pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? -- *Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? Much depends on wether UK Power need to enter the property to reconnect the supply after restoration. ISTM that some essential remedial work on the 'earthing' may be required particularly if PME is connected. Generally from what you have mentioned, a rewire would seem to be desirable but i doubt if UK Power could insist on this before reconnection. |
Mains failure
In article ,
Jack Harry Teesdale wrote: On 14/03/2021 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? Much depends on wether UK Power need to enter the property to reconnect the supply after restoration. They were in the cellar where the fusebox etc are last night - by the light coming from the grill on the steps to the front door. If it is a connection fault between the house feed to the street feed, surely they'd replace the ancient cable to the house anyway? ISTM that some essential remedial work on the 'earthing' may be required particularly if PME is connected. No PME round here. Generally from what you have mentioned, a rewire would seem to be desirable but i doubt if UK Power could insist on this before reconnection. OK. -- *ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:28:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? I have spoken to my friend (now retired from another electricity company). He says it would have to be pretty bad for reconnection to be refused. They are likely to carry out a basic insulation test and if this is bad, the system could be deemed unsafe. The most likely outcome is for the supply to be reconnected with an 'advisory' on work to be carried out. To my surprise, he also said that provision of a new earth is chargeable and earthing in itself is unlikely to prevent reconnection taking place. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 12:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Jack Harry Teesdale wrote: On 14/03/2021 11:28, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? Much depends on wether UK Power need to enter the property to reconnect the supply after restoration. They were in the cellar where the fusebox etc are last night - by the light coming from the grill on the steps to the front door. If it is a connection fault between the house feed to the street feed, surely they'd replace the ancient cable to the house anyway? That depends what the fault is, if it is just a dilapidated service cable they may replace it but if it is a failed joint at the street cable it would just be repaired in the street. ISTM that some essential remedial work on the 'earthing' may be required particularly if PME is connected. No PME round here. Generally from what you have mentioned, a rewire would seem to be desirable but i doubt if UK Power could insist on this before reconnection. OK. |
Mains failure
In article ,
Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. -- *Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 12:34, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:28:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? I have spoken to my friend (now retired from another electricity company). He says it would have to be pretty bad for reconnection to be refused. They are likely to carry out a basic insulation test and if this is bad, the system could be deemed unsafe. The most likely outcome is for the supply to be reconnected with an 'advisory' on work to be carried out. What might happen is that they reconnect but with a reduced capacity main fuse. Someone I knew was in this bind for getting a smart meter installed. The guy installing it told him that once he made any changes at all he would have to downgrade the installation to ISTR 40A main fuse because of the age and decrepitude of the house wiring. Still round pin plugs about - weird hybrid mix of sockets and not many of them. To my surprise, he also said that provision of a new earth is chargeable and earthing in itself is unlikely to prevent reconnection taking place. I thought they did an earth bonding return test with some maximum threshold that was acceptable. Likely that an old metal cold water main bonding will easily pass though unless very corroded. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? -- Jeff |
Mains failure
In article , Martin Brown
wrote: Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. My father had one which was very useful when he slipped and fell, then unable to get to his feet by himself. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? And will the telecoms provider meet the cost? |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? Some (most / all?) are already battery-backed anyway (Mum's is). Cheers, T i m |
Mains failure
T i m wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? You're not comparing the right things! A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA. Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. -- Chris Green · |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 13:53, charles wrote:
In article , Martin Brown wrote: Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. My father had one which was very useful when he slipped and fell, then unable to get to his feet by himself. The one MIL had (and absolutely refused to wear!) required mains electricity. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:42, GB wrote:
On 14/03/2021 13:53, charles wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. My father had one which was very useful when he slipped and fell, then unable to get to his feet by himself. The one MIL had (and absolutely refused to wear!) required mains electricity. My aunt, OTOH, refused to wear hers inside the house, but religiously wore it when she went to the shops. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:09, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? And will the telecoms provider meet the cost? AFAIK the requirement on telecoms providers is still that customers gave the means to make calls to the emergency services (999/112) for 1 hour after a power cut, but they only have to provide it free of charge for "at risk" customers. For the rest of us that may mean "get a mobile" or "buy a battery backup unit". And the personal alarm systems I've seen all came with base units which required a mains supply and had built-in battery backup to allow them to operate in the event of a power outage. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:42, GB wrote:
On 14/03/2021 13:53, charles wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. My father had one which was very useful when he slipped and fell, then unable to get to his feet by himself. The one MIL had (and absolutely refused to wear!) required mains electricity. Quite right: walking around trailing a mains flex would have been a trip hazard :) -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:50:30 +0000, Robin wrote:
On 14/03/2021 14:09, Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? And will the telecoms provider meet the cost? AFAIK the requirement on telecoms providers is still that customers gave the means to make calls to the emergency services (999/112) for 1 hour after a power cut, but they only have to provide it free of charge for "at risk" customers. For the rest of us that may mean "get a mobile" or "buy a battery backup unit". Is 'at risk' purely a function of age or do other risk factors need to be demonstrated? I assume the person described by OP would qualify. And the personal alarm systems I've seen all came with base units which required a mains supply and had built-in battery backup to allow them to operate in the event of a power outage. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:36, Chris Green wrote:
T i m wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? No You're not comparing the right things! A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA. Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. I think mine has two 12V 7Ah batteries. The UPS might also consume 5% of the rated 600VA just by providing the 240V. So no load will provide something like a little over 1hr of 240Vac. Also a Lead Acid capacity under a discharge of 1C will only get 66% of the C20 rate. At rated output of 600W assuming PF of 1.0 I doubt the UPS would last 10 minutes at a 5C discharge rat or worse. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 15:04, Fredxx wrote:
On 14/03/2021 14:36, Chris Green wrote: T i m wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? No You're not comparing the right things!Â* A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA.Â* Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. I think mine has two 12V 7Ah batteries. The UPS might also consume 5% of the rated 600VA just by providing the 240V. So no load will provide something like a little over 1hr of 240Vac. Also a Lead Acid capacity under a discharge of 1C will only get 66% of the C20 rate. At rated output of 600W assuming PF of 1.0 I doubt the UPS would last 10 minutes at a 5C discharge rat or worse. When looking at UPSs it is (or was) surprisingly difficult to find the data on the actual capacity in terms of watthours or VAhours, which for anything more than time to close down properly is what I was always interested in. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 13:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Â*Â*Â* Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 15:12, Robert wrote:
On 14/03/2021 15:04, Fredxx wrote: On 14/03/2021 14:36, Chris Green wrote: T i m wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? No You're not comparing the right things!Â* A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA.Â* Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. I think mine has two 12V 7Ah batteries. The UPS might also consume 5% of the rated 600VA just by providing the 240V. So no load will provide something like a little over 1hr of 240Vac. Also a Lead Acid capacity under a discharge of 1C will only get 66% of the C20 rate. At rated output of 600W assuming PF of 1.0 I doubt the UPS would last 10 minutes at a 5C discharge rat or worse. When looking at UPSs it is (or was) surprisingly difficult to find the data on the actual capacity in terms of watthours or VAhours, which for anything more than time to close down properly is what I was always interested in. Which is why I set my critical battery level to be 40% or so, to make sure there is enough time left to hibernate. I have no idea why Windows default value is 5%. I also find anything less that 20% is very inaccurate in terms of time left before the UPS gives out. |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:54, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:50:30 +0000, Robin wrote: On 14/03/2021 14:09, Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? And will the telecoms provider meet the cost? AFAIK the requirement on telecoms providers is still that customers gave the means to make calls to the emergency services (999/112) for 1 hour after a power cut, but they only have to provide it free of charge for "at risk" customers. For the rest of us that may mean "get a mobile" or "buy a battery backup unit". Is 'at risk' purely a function of age or do other risk factors need to be demonstrated? I assume the person described by OP would qualify. I don't know if Ofcom have defined what it means. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Mains failure
In article , Andrew
wrote: On 14/03/2021 13:34, Jeff Layman wrote: On 14/03/2021 12:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Scott wrote: As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Remember noticing it had been removed. It was on a phone shelf, that may have fallen off the wall. This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? How long will a battery support a personal alarm receiver? Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. A very large amount is in ducts - and the pikeys know it. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 15:36, Fredxx wrote:
On 14/03/2021 15:12, Robert wrote: On 14/03/2021 15:04, Fredxx wrote: On 14/03/2021 14:36, Chris Green wrote: T i m wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? No You're not comparing the right things!Â* A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA.Â* Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. I think mine has two 12V 7Ah batteries. The UPS might also consume 5% of the rated 600VA just by providing the 240V. So no load will provide something like a little over 1hr of 240Vac. Also a Lead Acid capacity under a discharge of 1C will only get 66% of the C20 rate. At rated output of 600W assuming PF of 1.0 I doubt the UPS would last 10 minutes at a 5C discharge rat or worse. When looking at UPSs it is (or was) surprisingly difficult to find the data on the actual capacity in terms of watthours or VAhours, which for anything more than time to close down properly is what I was always interested in. Which is why I set my critical battery level to be 40% or so, to make sure there is enough time left to hibernate. I have no idea why Windows default value is 5%. I also find anything less that 20% is very inaccurate in terms of time left before the UPS gives out. I'm not surprised; I think that most of UPS are meant for just a few minutes use to allow an organised shut down. But the situation regarding Dect phones, routers (and even alarm receivers) could be looked at in two ways. I guess you could use an ordinary computer-type UPS, which would be used as one unit connected to a distribution strip to which the Dect phone, etc would be connected. The alternative, as Dect phones and routers are usually supplied from an external power supply is to use a low voltage UPS such as the one shown he https://www.amazon.co.uk/Uninterruptible-100V-240V-8800mAH-Portable-Wireless-UPS-BLACK/dp/B07R4FGWDX/ref=psdc_430442031_t3_B0187PWCLO The problem is that its specs could be misleading unless you read them carefully. If you bring up the photo at the bottom of the six options, it shows its DC output is a maximum of 15W. So with a 12V supply, the maximum current would be expected to be 1.25A. But it's actually given as 1.0A at 9 or 12 V. The other voltages shown - 15 and 24V - are for POE My Fritz!Box router uses an average of 6W (that's with Dect on, but with no active call), so might last a couple of hours. Note, though, that there's only one DC output socket, so some sort of splitter would be required. Maybe for those with a higher budget something like this would be better: https://uk.dhgate.com/product/500w-portable-ups-power-battery-ac-110v-220v/411369938.html#dspm=pcen.seo-uk.list.10.cWO65oiIcifayiJTTQ9o&seo_type=1&resourc e_id=411369938#s1-9-1;uk|1952681989 I would hope that the manufacturers of low-voltage equipment could get together and agree a standard voltage and polarity, such as "12V centre +ve", in the same way that Mobile phones standardised several years ago on charging via USB. -- Jeff |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 14:42, GB wrote:
On 14/03/2021 13:53, charles wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Probably forgotten it was there. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. My father had one which was very useful when he slipped and fell, then unable to get to his feet by himself. My mum had one which saved her from falls a couple of times. The one MIL had (and absolutely refused to wear!) required mains electricity. The base station is mains powered but ISTR in the event of power failure it panics and makes an emergency call by default which the owner can override when the far end responds. The pendant took some random size of battery and lasted for ages. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:36:28 +0000, Chris Green wrote:
T i m wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 13:34:01 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. How long will a backup battery will be required to power the phone/router when the power goes down? Quite some time. My old NTL cable router requires 12V @ 1.5A so worst case that's ~20W. A fairly common UPS would be ~600VA so ~15 hours (down to 50% DOD?) maybe 10 if there was an Ethernet switch involved or 8 if you included a DECT / VOIP phone? You're not comparing the right things! A 600VA UPS can provide up to 600VA, that's *power*, it doesn't tell you for how long it will provide that 600VA. You are right of course, I was being distracted at the time. That said, for the rating of UPS I stated it's possible you could still run some light load stuff for several hours. Usually a domestic/computer UPS will only provide its rated (i.e. maximum) power for 20 or 30 minutes to give you enough time to shut down gracefully. Yes, that is it's 'typical role' but I have run all sorts of things, using them like a 240V AC 'battery' and have often been impressed how long they last (given the starting point of a good battery etc). I have several devices (2 x RPi, 1 x Shuttle PC, 1 x Synology NAS and an Anglepoise with a CFL in it g) just hanging off a 600VA APC Back-UPS (no 'smart interfaces') and so far they have continued to run over any power supply interruptions we have had (one early morning power cut and me turning the ring off a couple of times, forgetting they were running from it). Luckily I had also previously disabled the alarm beeper as it's next to the bedroom. ;-) Cheers, T i m |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? Until quite recently BTOR were installing a fibre ONT which had a battery backup unit and an analogue phone port. Now they are moving to just providing an ethernet port and leaving the analogue phone line to the ISP to provide from the router. I assume this could be purchased if required then? What BT really want to get rid of is their telephone exchanges which cost a fortune to run and many are in prime city centre locations How is that going to work if they are keeping existing copper lines for use as VDSL? I thought the main purpose of an exchange nowadays was to terminate all the phone lines. Owain |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:04:28 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 12:34:23 UTC, Scott wrote: To my surprise, he also said that provision of a new earth is chargeable and earthing in itself is unlikely to prevent reconnection taking place. A new earth is chargeable and the supplier doesn't have to provide one - but if they do, they must maintain it. I am surprised that lack of earth doesn't prevent reconnection, but TN-S may be available, or an earth rod isn't that difficult to knock into the ground. No, he wasn't saying that a lack of earth would be okay. He was saying if the existing earthing via the plumbing was working (as it was likely to be if the plumbing was undisturbed) and passed the test, reconnection could proceed. |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 11:28:47 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. I inherited one or two from my father. I like those. Were they the ones that screwed to the wall without needed a mounting box? Can you not still buy them? Are/were they okay for mounting on a wooden surface? |
Mains failure
In article ,
Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? Until quite recently BTOR were installing a fibre ONT which had a battery backup unit and an analogue phone port. Now they are moving to just providing an ethernet port and leaving the analogue phone line to the ISP to provide from the router. I assume this could be purchased if required then? What BT really want to get rid of is their telephone exchanges which cost a fortune to run and many are in prime city centre locations How is that going to work if they are keeping existing copper lines for use as VDSL? I thought the main purpose of an exchange nowadays was to terminate all the phone lines. Owain The phone line will only run from the cabinet to the premises. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 17:37, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? A public telephone service doesn't mean you have to be given wires and free electricity. The future for people who don't want high speed internet is a basic 500k service to support VOIP. The user gets a telephone socket so it's a telephone service, innit? -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 15:36:06 +0000, Fredxx wrote:
Which is why I set my critical battery level to be 40% or so, to make sure there is enough time left to hibernate. I have no idea why Windows default value is 5%. I also find anything less that 20% is very inaccurate in terms of time left before the UPS gives out. Mine (I have three) allow calibration to be run. I don't go for a percentage, but for run time. At 5 minutes left, the connected computer triggers shutdown on the other machines on the UPS/ After a short pause, it shuts itself down, asnd as a last gasp, tells the UPS to turn itself off after (I think) 30 seconds. Bringing the whole lot up again is complicated - to start with I had some circular dependencies! I have a laminated sheet stuck to the sode of the rack - I think there are about 15 steps. It's not quite as bad as a power station black start - but it feels like it! -- My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message. Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org *lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 18:17:36 +0000, Robin wrote:
On 14/03/2021 17:37, Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? A public telephone service doesn't mean you have to be given wires and free electricity. The future for people who don't want high speed internet is a basic 500k service to support VOIP. The user gets a telephone socket so it's a telephone service, innit? So it's not a question of 'may provide' but 'will be required to provide'? |
Mains failure
On 14 Mar 2021 at 17:07:59 GMT, "Jeff Layman"
wrote: snip I would hope that the manufacturers of low-voltage equipment could get together and agree a standard voltage and polarity, such as "12V centre +ve", in the same way that Mobile phones standardised several years ago on charging via USB. They only did that when the EU told them to. Just saying. -- Roger Hayter |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 18:07:02 +0000 (GMT), charles
wrote: In article , Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? Until quite recently BTOR were installing a fibre ONT which had a battery backup unit and an analogue phone port. Now they are moving to just providing an ethernet port and leaving the analogue phone line to the ISP to provide from the router. I assume this could be purchased if required then? What BT really want to get rid of is their telephone exchanges which cost a fortune to run and many are in prime city centre locations How is that going to work if they are keeping existing copper lines for use as VDSL? I thought the main purpose of an exchange nowadays was to terminate all the phone lines. Owain The phone line will only run from the cabinet to the premises. That makes sense. All the cabinets will be connected by fibre so an exchange will still be needed. The copper lines will run as at present to the premises unless they are fibre to the premises. What about aluminium phone lines? I thought they performed very badly with ADSL. And what about properties close to the exchange that are connected direct and not via a cabinet ('exchange only lines')? https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/asse...only-lines.pdf |
Mains failure
On 14/03/2021 18:31, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 18:17:36 +0000, Robin wrote: On 14/03/2021 17:37, Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 10:02:08 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 15:15:41 UTC, Andrew wrote: This doesn't bode well for when the copper wires go and we all have to use VoiP for a fibre connection. Are Openreach going to dig up thousands of miles of underground copper cables that are just buried in soil and replace with fibre ?. No; they'll provide, as they do now, VDSL or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC). Can this be done with all existing cables? Are there may aluminium cables remaining now? They may even provide a low-speed VDSL just suitable for VoIP. Do they not have a statutory obligation to provide a public telephone service? A public telephone service doesn't mean you have to be given wires and free electricity. The future for people who don't want high speed internet is a basic 500k service to support VOIP. The user gets a telephone socket so it's a telephone service, innit? So it's not a question of 'may provide' but 'will be required to provide'? AIUI (which may be wrong) no. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Mains failure
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 12:11:25 -0700 (PDT), Owain Lastname
wrote: On Sunday, 14 March 2021 at 18:38:30 UTC, Scott wrote: The phone line will only run from the cabinet to the premises. That makes sense. All the cabinets will be connected by fibre so an exchange will still be needed. It depends what you mean by an "exchange". Unlike telephone exchanges which have to go where all the wires join up, data centres can go anywhere on the network. BT new splitters can deliver FTTP over 90 km from the head-end and a GPON head-end is a couple of U high on a rack for about 5k customers. Thanks for that. To my unanswered question 2, would it be as simple as replacing the existing exchange with a cabinet and linking that cabinet to the data centre wherever it is located? |
Mains failure
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. So she should have been able to use that. You clearly didn’t spell that out properly or she forgot about that. Now the ring main had been installed by her long dead husband. Mainly surface wired with those 50s surface MK sockets. Only earth in the house to the water main. Rest of the wiring ancient - porcelain fuses with separate breakers - the usual mess of added things. Very likely dating to well before WW2 - although light switches had been replaced by modern ones. So wondering if the supply, once replaced, will be re-connected? -- *Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Mains failure
"Martin Brown" wrote in message ... On 14/03/2021 12:34, Scott wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 11:28:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Next door neighbour - a widow of 89 who lives on her own and is getting pretty frail, had a total power failure yesterday morning. And couldn't summon help as both her phones are cordless, and no mobile. So was only discovered when her daughter visited that evening, as she does every day. Turned out to be the supply into the house which had failed. So UK Power Network supplied a generator, which arrived sometime in the middle of the night and is thrumming away nicely now. As it happens I know a bit about her wiring. Some years ago I installed the cordless phones for her. As the cabled one was in the very cold hallway. Put an extension BT socket in the lounge and also a mains socket for the base station since there wasn't one handy. The second one went in her bedroom, I was told. Left the original phone in the hall, still working normally. Why did your neigbour not use the phone in the hall to call for assistance? Probably forgotten it was there. He claims its not there now. Bit mad with someone so frail to not have something that will work with no mains. Frail elderly living alone should be encouraged to get a Care on Call installation (monthly fee applies) so that they have a pendant to use in the event of a fall or whatever. Do those work with no mains, cant seem to quickly google it. We could never get my dad to wear the pendant. He appeared to think it proved how decrepit he had become. Something you can talk to like the best google home minis without any need for any internet would be better but it isnt clear how easy it would be to ensure than they could remember how to tell it that it should call for help. |
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