At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter. But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

--
Michael Chare

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 19/01/2021 19:09, RJH wrote:
On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?


Perhaps I need to buy futures in copper.

On 19/01/2021 19:31, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/01/2021 19:09, RJH wrote:
On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
Â* At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
Â* poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm
inside
Â* during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Â* Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:
Â* https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm
Â* Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?


Perhaps I need to buy futures in copper.


The battery would make the whole idea of an electric car much more
pratical. If you have off street parking at home you could charge the
car slowly overnight. If you have to park on the street you could visit
a local charging point and wait jiust a bit longer than it takes to fill
a car with petrol or diesel.

--
Michael Chare

On 19/01/2021 21:13, Michael Chare wrote:
On 19/01/2021 19:31, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/01/2021 19:09, RJH wrote:
On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
Â* At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their
price,
Â* poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm
inside
Â* during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Â* Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:
Â* https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm
Â* Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3
phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?


Perhaps I need to buy futures in copper.


The battery would make the whole idea of an electric car much more
pratical. If you have off street parking at home you could charge the
car slowly overnight. If you have to park on the street you could visit
a local charging point and wait jiust a bit longer than it takes to fill
a car with petrol or diesel.

I rather like Tesla's idea, I think now abandoned, where you swap
batteries. You could even choose a capacity for your next journey to
keep rental costs down.

There have been many proposed batteries that have come to nothing.
Before Lithium chemistries were all the rage Sodium Sulphur was the
in-thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium...sulfur_battery

So, when I see a battery in some scaled production that's when I take
notice.

In article ,
Michael Chare wrote:
If you have off street parking at home you could charge the
car slowly overnight. If you have to park on the street you could visit
a local charging point and wait jiust a bit longer than it takes to fill
a car with petrol or diesel.

I really can't see the problem of providing on street chargers for every
single parking bay on the street. After all we now have phones in our
houses, where once you used a phone box.

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/01/2021 21:13, Michael Chare wrote:

car slowly overnight. If you have to park on the street you could visit
a local charging point and wait jiust a bit longer than it takes to fill
a car with petrol or diesel.


A lot longer because you would still have the delays of queuing, paying,
plugging in, unplugging.

Bill

On 19/01/2021 19:31, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/01/2021 19:09, RJH wrote:
On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
Â* At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
Â* poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm
inside
Â* during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Â* Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:
Â* https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm
Â* Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?


Perhaps I need to buy futures in copper.




--
Michael Chare

Fredxx wrote:

RJH wrote:

I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?

So, you deliver fuel to petrol stations, run generators on it, then
charge cars ... why not put the fuel direct into cars?

On 20/01/2021 09:26, Andy Burns wrote:
Fredxx wrote:

RJH wrote:

I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?

So, you deliver fuel to petrol stations, run generators on it, then
charge cars ... why not put the fuel direct into cars?

Well we all know it wont be achieved.
The grid is already falling over with the weight of unreliables and it
will take at least 30 years to roll out nukes once the public realises
there is no alternative - and that will take another decade probably.

So 2060 before we have a grid capable of running electric cars.

And it is doubtful that the battery metals will be available then anyway
in that quantity.



--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On 19/01/2021 19:31, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/01/2021 19:09, RJH wrote:
On 19 Jan 2021 at 17:32:35 GMT, "Fredxx" wrote:

On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
Â* At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
Â* poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm
inside
Â* during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Â* Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:
Â* https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm
Â* Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

No, I think the idea is that petrol stations get repurposed as charging
points, making the process of refuelling much the same as it is at the
moment.

Ah, my mistake. I'm still wondering how this might be achieved. There
are a few 2MW gensets on the market. Could cater for 8 charging points?


Perhaps I need to buy futures in copper.


Definately. RioTinto share price is up from £13 in Feb 2016 to
about £60. An EV car has a lot more copper than an IC one.

Tim Streater wrote:
Perhaps some people need to do the ****ing sums.

Bad day?

If you're going to an "electric station" to get your car "refilled" with
volts, you're not gonna put up with it taking 10 minutes. 5 at the
outside. A 40kWH charge in 5 mins is 12 x 40kWH per hour, or 480kW. And
if my local Morrison's station is anything to go by, there could be 12 at
it at once. So, allowing for time to pay, say 400kW continuous at peak
time, or 4.8, say 5MW. Just for one "electric station".

I don't think this would be for your local Morrisons, because many of the
people doing shopping runs would be slow-charging at home or on-street.
This would be targeted at long distance drivers who need a quick fill up -
motorway services, truck drivers, etc. In particular for trucking you can
get away with a smaller battery (ie more payload) if you can fill up
regularly and rapidly.

If you're using it only on larger sites it simplifies things because you
can spread the costs by building on a bigger scale.

Oh, and 480kW. That's your choice of 480V at 1000 amps or 1kV at 480 amps.
Either way, not a cable you want to be handling even assuming you can lift
it.

There are already robotic charging stations, and I assume that might be
needed here. For example a charging connector on the bottom of the car where,
once the negotiation and optical alignment is complete, an arm comes out of
a panel in the ground.

You can also do robotic to conventional 'fuel flap' charging sockets, but
the mechanism is more complex. A car might provide both - fuel flap for the
humans, port underneath for the robots.

And it gets worse: Assume 99% efiiciency in the process. That means you're
looking at getting rid of 5kW of heat generated by the charging process.
That's 60kW for the whole station at peak times. Good luck with that.

Depending on where the heat is generated (conversion electronics rather than
cabling?) you could maybe run a small heat/steam engine? Either way, 60kW
isn't actually that much - it's roughly the output of a petrol car engine,
which is easily cooled (even when not moving).

However a bigger challenge is how to supply that power from the grid, which
won't like such huge demand spikes. I presume it would need a local battery
that is slow-charged (in MW) from the grid and then provides the current
spikes when charging vehicles. It also might have its own solar/wind/etc
generation to reduce grid demand and also transmission losses.

Various things that aren't quite here yet, but I'm sure could be engineered
if the demand was there.

Theo

On 19/01/2021 17:32, Fredxx wrote:
On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm
inside during the winter.Â* But maybe I could have an electric car with
a Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?



Isn't the idea that you have a separate charging battery at home which
is charged in slow time but when attached to the car discharged in a
short time?

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country. grin.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Fredxx" wrote in message
...
On 19/01/2021 16:46, Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter. But maybe I could have an electric car with a Lithium
ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!

I do wonder what home supply you had in mind you'd need to charge 40
kilowatt hour batteries in 10 minutes?

Is every house going to get it's 240kW supply? Were you thinking 3 phase
415V at 200A per phase or single phase at 240V at a mere 1,000A?

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country. grin.
Brian


No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

Take the driver out of the equation and things become easier.

--
Cheers
Clive

On Wed, 20 Jan 2021 11:49:13 +0000, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads
to keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country.
grin.
Brian


No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

Take the driver out of the equation and things become easier.

and you have a train ...

Avpx


--
"Just because someone's a member of an ethnic minority doesn't mean
they're not a nasty small-minded little jerk [...]"
(Feet of Clay)
Wed 10004 Sep 12:20:01 GMT 1993
12:20:01 up 5 days, 20:15, 11 users, load average: 8.43, 8.49, 8.53

"Clive Arthur" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country. grin.
Brian

No, Scalextric slots in the road.

Thats not viable at the higher road speeds.

Or large moving lorries full of batteries which you can hitch behind for
recharging, while someone else hitches behind you etc.

Thats not viable either, you are stuck with
the speed of the lorry and its too hard to
leave from in the middle when you need
to particularly for the worst drivers.

Has the advantage of better aerodynamic efficiency too, if you have a few.

Take the driver out of the equation and things become easier.

But makes self driving cars even harder to do.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 05:30:05 +1100, Fred, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 20/01/2021 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country. grin.
Brian


No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)

TBH on a motorway a self driving car end to end with others is no bad
idea, but KV on the road surface is a very *bad* idea.



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 20/01/2021 12:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/01/2021 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Â* Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major
roads to
Â* keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country.
grin.
Â*Â*Â* Brian

No, Scalextric slots in the road.Â* Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc.Â* Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)

TBH on a motorway a self driving car end to end with others is no bad
idea, but KV on the road surface is a very *bad* idea.

The bikers wouldn't be too keen. I guess you could engineer something
switched and/or enclosed and at a lower voltage (not kelvin-volts as you
suggest anyway), but it would be difficult.

The main issue would be operating and manning the very large hand
controllers.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 20/01/2021 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country. grin.
Brian


No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)


There is a tram service somewhere in the world that gets its
power from a slot in the road. Austria ?

On 20/01/2021 12:44, Andrew wrote:
On 20/01/2021 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Â* Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major
roads to
Â* keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country.
grin.
Â*Â*Â* Brian

No, Scalextric slots in the road.Â* Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc.Â* Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)


There is a tram service somewhere in the world that gets its
power from a slot in the road. Austria ?

San Francisco cable cars do. Probably not in the way you meant.

--
Cheers
Clive

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 20/01/2021 12:16, Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 20/01/2021 10:01, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
Nah, the obvious answer is a kind of overhead wire on all major roads
to
keep it charged up and then it can run on battery in the country.
grin.
Brian


No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)


There is a tram service somewhere in the world that gets its
power from a slot in the road. Austria ?

But they dont go at anything like motorway speeds.

Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur wrote:

No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)

Not so crazy:
https://www.businessinsider.com/germ...-cables-2019-5

Theo

Theo wrote:
Not so crazy:
https://www.businessinsider.com/germ...-cables-2019-5

Actually, thinking about it, this combines with a rapid-charge battery
rather nicely. It means a truck needs less time spent 'under the wires',
meaning the need to wire up shorter distances of motorways. You would wire
(for example) 10 miles in every hundred to keep the trucks topped up.

I'm not completely convinced that the above 670V DC catenary would be enough
though. A class 373 Eurostar train can draw 12.2MW on 25kV 50Hz AC
overhead, but could only take 3.4MW on 750V DC third rail due to power
supply limitations - I imagine something similar would apply here.
(putting 25kV above a motorway might have problematic safety concerns...)

Theo

On 20 Jan 2021 at 12:56:56 GMT, "Theo"
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:
On 20 Jan 2021 at 11:49:13 GMT, Clive Arthur wrote:

No, Scalextric slots in the road. Or large moving lorries full of
batteries which you can hitch behind for recharging, while someone else
hitches behind you etc. Has the advantage of better aerodynamic
efficiency too, if you have a few.

You've obviously had a few :-)

Not so crazy:

https://www.businessinsider.com/germ...-cables-2019-5

Theo

Terraced homes could have a swinging or telescopic gantry, extended when
needed to give an overhead cable.

I'll get my coat :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

Michael Chare wrote:
At the moment I would not buy an electric car because of their price,
poor range, short battery life (8 years) and unlikely to be warm inside
during the winter. But maybe I could have an electric car with a
Lithium ion phosphate battery like this:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0118113126.htm

Charging at home might take longer than 10 minutes!


Um, you know what Lithium iron phosphate is ?

That's the battery in the fairy lights in the garden.
Scaled up in size.

The reason those batteries are in Model 3 cars manufactured
in China, it's part of a Chinese mandate. There isn't an
infinite supply of Cobalt, so some of the battery demand
will be satisfied with Lithium iron phosphate. The Model 3
cars with that battery type in place, are for domestic
consumption in China at the moment. Presumably, this was
the pill Musk had to swallow when getting permission to
build a plant there.

Cubic volume wise, Lithium iron phosphate has half the
range of Lithium Cobalt.

Are you celebrating yet ?

Yes, universities release press releases all the time, but
many of the chemistry advances sink without a bubble appearing
on the surface.

Lithium iron phosphate can still catch fire, but it's more
abuse-tolerant than the cobalt ones. I don't know about
charge cycles. Remember, that in a car application, any sort
of fast charging algorithm, pushes the batteries to the wall.
Anecdotal evidence from owners is, the more times you use
the "max rate" fast charger, the more the car smart charging
algorithm prevents you from using it the next time. To meet
warranty life, the smart charger "backs off and takes longer",
so that the pack will meet warranty life and not need
free replacement by the manufacturer.

And I don't really know how many cycles you get from a fairy
lamp when pushed. Fairy lamps get microamps from their little
solar cell, and they never stop charging (there's no charge
controller needed because they will put up with charging
abuse such as trying to fill them when they're full).

But if you're a determined twit, Lithium iron phosphate will
eventually catch fire, as it has a thermal runaway condition
just like Lithium Cobalt does. All the Lithiums do, because... Lithium.
The Lithium iron phosphate needs just as careful attention to
charge termination as Lithium Cobalt. While the fairy lamp
can overcharge with glee (at microamps of current), a
car sized battery would not put up with pushing 300kW
into it when it's full full full. Now it wants to catch fire.

Paul