Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?

JohnP wrote:
Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?

https://www.ssen.co.uk/ConnectionsIn...EstimatorTool/
gives 'illustrative' prices:

New supply - House/Flat

Urban single phase: £5140
Urban three phase: £9518

Rural single phase: £4017
Rural three phase: £4675

I'm guessing the urban three phase might be cheaper if you were building an
entire new street, rather than a new build slotted in between existing
houses.

Theo

Theo wrote:

https://www.ssen.co.uk/ConnectionsIn...EstimatorTool/
gives 'illustrative' prices:

New supply - House/Flat

Urban single phase: £5140
Urban three phase: £9518

Rural single phase: £4017
Rural three phase: £4675

Those are roughly triple WPD's illustrative prices, they don't quote
domestic 3ph, but they do quote small commercial up to 69kW supply (i.e
3ph 100A)

https://www.westernpower.co.uk/connections-landing/get-a-guide-price/interactive-costing-tool

On 24/12/2020 15:54, Theo wrote:
JohnP wrote:
Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?

https://www.ssen.co.uk/ConnectionsIn...EstimatorTool/
gives 'illustrative' prices:

New supply - House/Flat

Urban single phase: £5140
Urban three phase: £9518

I'd suggest in ten years time, we would have more electric cars and
electric boilers. My urban single phase is 80A.

Train as a road digger. Job for life.

--
Adrian C

In article ,
JohnP wrote:
Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?

Presumably this is at home? So could charge the car every night? Why would
you need three phase?

--
*No radio - Already stolen.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I'm more interested in how all this power is going to be generated myself. I
mean if everyone has to get a generator to charge their car the pollution
and noise is going to be worse. Also I see that the honeymoon is over for
car tax reduction on alternative fuel vehicles, seems now to be a
combination of three things including on the road price when new.
So get and keep your second hand car as long as you can.

I want my self driving car now!

Brian

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"JohnP" wrote in message
. ..
Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?

JohnP wrote:
Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure for
possible use for a car charger?


No idea of the actual costs other than €œquite a lot€� but for 99% of EV
owners, pointless.

Most car owners sleep for part of the day. Usually quite long enough to
adequately charge most EVs for their daily mileage on a single phase 7kW
supply.

On the odd days when they might want a more rapid top up charge during the
day, a high speed DC charger will make more sense than a 22kW AC charger.

Lastly, many EVs wont actually charge faster than 7kWhrs as adding three
phase chargers to the cars cost money. Cheaper/easier to fit DC chargers
that will suit owners needs better for a fast charge.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure
for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards.
We were 2 car when we were both working.
Teenage kids at home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is likely
to be in communal bays not on your own property.

Cheers


Dave R

--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure
for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards.
We were 2 car when we were both working.
Teenage kids at home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is likely
to be in communal bays not on your own property.

Cheers


Dave R


But that's not how current generation families are working it.

They're keeping 1 gasoline beater and 1 BEV.

The gasoline car is "for vacations", and has the range.

But, as it turns out, one family member is driving the gasoline
vehicle during the day to get groceries.

This is what real people are doing.

2 BEVs would be silly, and only a side-effect of legislation.

At some point, public infrastructure may allow a more
complete transition. For example, if the price premium of
charging in the city was 1X the home electricity cost,
now two BEVs are practical.

In my own city, I could easily see how the "Park and Ride" facility
that the public transit operates, you could build-in a low charge
rate facility into every parking spot. As an example of simplifying
things. If you spend an 8 hour work day in the city core,
that would be an excellent location for chargers (8 hours times 7kW).
The Park and Ride nearest me has room for several hundred cars (and
land to pave more spots). There are more of these around the city
outskirts.

The optional pack on the Model 3 is 75kWh, and 56kWh would easily
cover what you burned on the way in from the suburbs.

One city here is experimenting with BEV buses, But this is likely
to see how best to deploy them. They are not even remotely close
to being an exact replacement for the diesels. They're being
pampered while they play with them. You're not likely to jump out
of one BEV, and into a second (transit) BEV.

When I was a kid, there were wires above every street. And
the buses had two poles that rode on the wires. We went all
over town with that kit. The place was well equipped with wires.
The drivers only had to get out occasionally and put the
pickups back on the wires. If the driver whipped through an
intersection too fast, sometimes a pole would come off.
And they had great acceleration too - on my favorite hill,
the driver used to floor it, to give a demo of just how much
traction power the thing had. That was a great system. And,
with no batteries, you could drive those pigs 22 hours a day,
no problem at all. And because they don't have batteries, they're
also dirt cheap.

Paul

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 10:31:18 -0500, Paul wrote:

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars
overnight using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

80 A @ 230 V is 18.4 kW so in theory OK for 2 * 7 kW chargers. "In
theory" 'cause it's doubtful the street cabling or local substation
or indeed the nearest primary substatio0n is rated anywhere near
enough to enable many homes on the average street to pull 14 kW for
any length of time.

But that's not how current generation families are working it.

Not ATM but with diesel/petrol due to be off the market in 10 years
it doesn't leave much time to get the infrastructure right from the
power stations to street cabling upgraded.

The Park and Ride nearest me has room for several hundred cars (and
land to pave more spots). There are more of these around the city
outskirts.

300 * 7 kW = 2.1 MW = 190 A @ 11 kV or a slighly more manageable 63 A
@ 33 kV...

--
Cheers
Dave.

David wrote:
At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

I think it depends on the usage. It's doubtful that all family members are
going to be doing 300 mile trips every day, so need a full recharge of a
flat battery. A lot of those cars are going to do 50 miles a day, and at
about 4-5 miles per kWh that's only 10-12kWh needed to recharge. Assuming
the cars are plugged into the same charger, it can decide to prioritise them
based on who needs charging first, and then sequence them as they each
become full.

If it's a new build estate it would make sense to install 3-phase anyway,
though, given the extra cost is likely to be small.

(it is ever a thing to have dynamic load balancing across phases - where the
supply company can switch over your single-phase loads to a different phase
to keep the network in balance?)

Theo

gIn article , Theo
wrote:
David wrote:
At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars
overnight using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

I think it depends on the usage. It's doubtful that all family members
are going to be doing 300 mile trips every day, so need a full recharge
of a flat battery. A lot of those cars are going to do 50 miles a day,
and at about 4-5 miles per kWh that's only 10-12kWh needed to recharge.
Assuming the cars are plugged into the same charger, it can decide to
prioritise them based on who needs charging first, and then sequence them
as they each become full.

If it's a new build estate it would make sense to install 3-phase anyway,
though, given the extra cost is likely to be small.

(it is ever a thing to have dynamic load balancing across phases - where
the supply company can switch over your single-phase loads to a different
phase to keep the network in balance?)

About 40 years ago, a development of 30 bungalows was all put on one phase.

Much easier for the developer.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure
for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards.
We were 2 car when we were both working.
Teenage kids at home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is likely
to be in communal bays not on your own property.

You are saying that everyone you know uses up the maximum range of their
car every single day? Do you re-fuel your existing one every single
evening, then?

--
*There's no place like www.home.com *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure
for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards.
We were 2 car when we were both working.
Teenage kids at home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is likely
to be in communal bays not on your own property.

You are saying that everyone you know uses up the maximum range of their
car every single day? Do you re-fuel your existing one every single
evening, then?

I thought TNP or someone had estimated current car usage from a
countrywide petrol supplied/annum figure. Doesn't this lead directly to
a total mileage/charge requirement if we all went electric?


--
Tim Lamb

On 26/12/2020 15:33, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Â* David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would
it be
for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter enclosure
for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards.
We were 2 car when we were both working.
Teenage kids at home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars
overnight
using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is likely
to be in communal bays not on your own property.

You are saying that everyone you know uses up the maximum range of their
car every single day? Do you re-fuel your existing one every single
evening, then?

I thought TNP or someone had estimated current car usage from a
countrywide petrolÂ* supplied/annum figure. Doesn't this lead directly to
a total mileage/charge requirement if we all went electric?

It does.

It is not as simple as all that - back in around 2011 or thereabouts I
simply took the KWh value of all fossil fuels burnt in the UK and
estimated what amount of electricity would be needed to replace it. At
the same efficiency it was a 300GW peak grid to do EVERYTHING with
leccy, making no assumptions about how it was done. Something like 5
times what we now have

But we know that leccy cars are way more efficient than fuel cars in
terms of leccy-to-wheel so in that sense we can use a lot less.
Heatpumps are more efficient than gas and so on.

So its complicated. IN reality I suspect BEVS are here to stay in urban
contexts anyway, if cities do not become Covid graveyards, and if their
ownership and usage is incetivised by e.g pollution taxes then grids
will be uprated and charging solutions rolled out to keep up with demand.

The big crunch will come when part or all of the 'solution' proves to be
impractical or impossibly expensive or totally unacceptable.

And that's why the last government energy paper in the small print below
the renewable headlines quietly announced 60GW of nuclear power by 2050

I see now that they are talking of increasing peak nuclear capability
with molten salt heat bank storages so they can be used to back up
windmills!

You couldn't make it up






--
Of what good are dead warriors? €¦ Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory €¦ The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

Tim Lamb wrote:
I thought TNP or someone had estimated current car usage from a
countrywide petrol supplied/annum figure. Doesn't this lead directly to
a total mileage/charge requirement if we all went electric?

You can work out average energy per day, but not how bursty the charging is,
which is what sets the network current. For example, a rapid charger will
consume roughly the same energy as a slow charger, but needs a much bigger
grid connection. The charging speed is set by the usage pattern of the car,
not by the energy requirement (for example, owner doesn't have a charging
point at home so rapid charges while doing the supermarket shop).

Theo

In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would
it be for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter
enclosure for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards. We were 2 car when we were both working. Teenage kids at
home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars
overnight using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is
likely to be in communal bays not on your own property.

You are saying that everyone you know uses up the maximum range of
their car every single day? Do you re-fuel your existing one every
single evening, then?

I thought TNP or someone had estimated current car usage from a
countrywide petrol supplied/annum figure. Doesn't this lead directly to
a total mileage/charge requirement if we all went electric?

That's not the same as saying every house has to have provision to charge
several cars at once.


--
*IF ONE SYNCHRONIZED SWIMMER DROWNS, DO THE REST DROWN TOO?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
David wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:38:31 +0000, JohnP wrote:

Realisticallty - if it was a new norm - what additional cost would
it be for new builds to have a 3 phase supply brought to the meter
enclosure for possible use for a car charger?

Most comments seem to consider charging a single car.

A lot of families are two car these days, especially in suburbia and
outwards. We were 2 car when we were both working. Teenage kids at
home can easily lead to 3 or 4 car families.

At what point does it become infeasible to charge multiple cars
overnight using a single 80 or 100 Amp 2 phase supply?

Noting in passing that a decade or so back planning for new builds
restricted parking to 1.5 cars IIIRC so most new build parking is
likely to be in communal bays not on your own property.

You are saying that everyone you know uses up the maximum range of
their car every single day? Do you re-fuel your existing one every
single evening, then?

I thought TNP or someone had estimated current car usage from a
countrywide petrol supplied/annum figure. Doesn't this lead directly to
a total mileage/charge requirement if we all went electric?

That's not the same as saying every house has to have provision to charge
several cars at once.

Indeed. But it does point to the likely daily energy requirement for the
country and from that an idea what needs to change.
An example of restraint occurred here where a rural development of 4
dwellings was unable to use air source heating because there was
insufficient cable capacity in the lane.
Overnight load shifting will obviously help.



--
Tim Lamb

Theo wrote:

You can work out average energy per day, but not how bursty the charging is,
which is what sets the network current.

DECC produces annual energy flow charts, all of transport consumed 57
MToE in 2019

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/energy-flow-charts

Clearly a tiny amount of transport is already electric (trains, cars)
and a huge chunk of it would be "challenging" to convert to electric
(planes, ships, even lorries) but just run with the number and that's
660,000,000,000 kilowatt hours

In terms of 7kW charging points, it would need 55 million of the things
running 24x7, then you need to worry about fossil-electric conversion
losses, grid losses and what to do when it's dark or not windy ...

On 27/12/2020 11:41, Andy Burns wrote:
Theo wrote:

You can work out average energy per day, but not how bursty the
charging is,
which is what sets the network current.

DECC produces annual energy flow charts, all of transport consumed 57
MToE in 2019

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/energy-flow-charts

Clearly a tiny amount of transport is already electric (trains, cars)
and a huge chunk of it would be "challenging" to convert to electric
(planes, ships, even lorries) but just run with the number and that's
660,000,000,000 kilowatt hours

An average flow of 75 GW - two to three times what the grid average
currently is


In terms of 7kW charging points, it would need 55 million of the things
running 24x7, then you need to worry about fossil-electric conversion
losses, grid losses and what to do when it's dark or not windy ...

Only makes partial sense with nuclear. No sense with windymills at all



--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On 25/12/2020 15:31, Paul wrote:
When I was a kid, there were wires above every street. And
the buses had two poles that rode on the wires. We went all
over town with that kit. The place was well equipped with wires.
The drivers only had to get out occasionally and put the
pickups back on the wires. If the driver whipped through an
intersection too fast, sometimes a pole would come off.
And they had great acceleration too - on my favorite hill,
the driver used to floor it, to give a demo of just how much
traction power the thing had. That was a great system. And,
with no batteries, you could drive those pigs 22 hours a day,
no problem at all. And because they don't have batteries, they're
also dirt cheap.

Cardiff corporation had electric trolley buses like that, but
in the late 1960's they decided that modernisation was the
name of the game. Having to make changes to the wires when
roads and junctions were changed might have been a factor.
All the wires came down and the ornate ?cast iron posts and
poles were ripped out and scrapped.