tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Any idea what the stain is you seem to have tried the obvious things that
would dissolve limescale or remove the colour at least if normal waste that
goes down a toilet. It is possible it is a stubborn limescale deposit and
more concentrated or longer exposure to acid may help. In our first grotty
rented place the bottom of the toilet was damaged the glaze was chipped or
worn and it looked greyish the owner replaced it eventually due to another
problem.

On 07/10/2020 14:08, Radio Man wrote:
tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Any idea what the stain is you seem to have tried the obvious things that
would dissolve limescale or remove the colour at least if normal waste that
goes down a toilet. It is possible it is a stubborn limescale deposit and
more concentrated or longer exposure to acid may help. In our first grotty
rented place the bottom of the toilet was damaged the glaze was chipped or
worn and it looked greyish the owner replaced it eventually due to another
problem.



yuk

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:20:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/10/2020 11:32, tim... wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?



caustic soda

surely the stain that I have is discoloured limescale.

so I need an acid?

well in my experience you will have two things. Limescale and encrusted
fatty turds and turd stains. Acid clears the scale, followed by alkali
to saponify the fats and to bleach the organic stains

Perhaps better to remove the fat first so that the ensuing chemical can get
at the limescale.
I saw in an article somewhere that the main factor in blocking disinfecant
is fat/grease.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:18:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/10/2020 12:50, Theo wrote:
Stronger acids (HCl) work faster, but there's more risk of damaging the
glaze because they're stronger acids.
glaze is glass. Sulphuric acid comes in glass and ceramic bottles. It
will not harm glaze at all

Chrome plating is another matter....

It's hydrochloric acid that really attacks chromium - used to use it when
checking the thickness of plating.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:16:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brick acid turns limescale into soluble calcium sulphate

Sodium chloride, shirley.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 06/10/2020 20:26, AJH wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:40, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?




You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket cleaner
with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid a
bottle. The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.


Yes as has been said brick cleaning acid is the easiest obtainable, main
thing is to use little and leave long enough to neutralise itself, it's
fine in the pan but will react with any cement on its way out if still
active.

That's a fair point, although in a properly designed system it will be
running past any joints, not settling on them. Running washing machine
or dishwasher or having a shower after flushing will help. Or neutralise
in the pan with a whole bottle of ammonia.

On 07/10/2020 13:05, tim... wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Â* tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





HG products usually do what they say on the can/bottle

https://hg.eu/uk/products/hg-toilet-renovation-kit
https://hg.eu/media/poqprc2y/0631800100106.pdf


https://hg.eu/uk/products/hg-super-p...toilet-cleaner
https://hg.eu/media/jnqegorv/0532200105006.pdf

I think I saw this in B&Q (a few minutes ago), in amongst other branded
products

I left it there as I was looking for something more generic rather than
branded, as that way I don't get fooled by the over optimistic
marketing.

even generic ones will have a maker.

I meant a generic chemical

the problem with this category of product is that there doesn't appear
to be a requirement to list ingredients

and many of them don't

They just contain marketing blurb

You can't tell whether, or why, they might work better than just
squirting vinegar on the scale, at one tenth of the cost (which is what
I do to descale my shower cubicle)





If it contains anything "effective" you should be able to find an MSDS
on-line. This will sometimes contain the exact proportion of (say) acid.
It's hardly a commercial secret, anyone with O-level chemistry would be
able to estimate it in a school lab.

On 07/10/2020 15:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:28:23 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:16:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brick acid turns limescale into soluble calcium sulphate

Sodium chloride, shirley.

Neither. Try calcium chloride.

my bad, I was thinking of sulphuric acid, not hydrochloric..


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:42:46 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:28:23 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:16:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Brick acid turns limescale into soluble calcium sulphate

Sodium chloride, shirley.

Neither. Try calcium chloride.

Yes - sorry - I'd just read down-thread re. sodium hydroxide. BTW, HCl
doesn't 'burn' intacts skin even at about 50% (DAMHIK); H2SO4 and HNO3 do,
the latter leaving a brown stain - the other, more common type of brown
stain is less harmful!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

tim... wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tim... wrote:


"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





HG products usually do what they say on the can/bottle

https://hg.eu/uk/products/hg-toilet-renovation-kit
https://hg.eu/media/poqprc2y/0631800100106.pdf


https://hg.eu/uk/products/hg-super-p...toilet-cleaner
https://hg.eu/media/jnqegorv/0532200105006.pdf

I think I saw this in B&Q (a few minutes ago), in amongst other branded
products

I left it there as I was looking for something more generic rather than
branded, as that way I don't get fooled by the over optimistic
marketing.

even generic ones will have a maker.

I meant a generic chemical

the problem with this category of product is that there doesn't appear
to be a requirement to list ingredients

and many of them don't

They just contain marketing blurb

You can't tell whether, or why, they might work better than just
squirting vinegar on the scale, at one tenth of the cost (which is what
I do to descale my shower cubicle)

https://www.compoundchem.com/2016/03/02/limescale/

"How can limescale be removed?

Limescale removers usually make use of acids. Acids will react
with the limescale to produce soluble metal salts which can then
simply be washed away.

For toilets, stronger acids such as hydrochloric acid are used, === Hmmm !

whereas for kitchen appliances such as kettles, citric acid,
lactic acid, or formic acid are common components of limescale
removal powders."

Roughly translating, that means that what is on the
toilet, is not limescale :-) Giving Google a poke gives...

"Repeated use of a toilet results in the build-up of a deposit
derived from urine and hard water on the surface of the toilet bowl.

The hardened mineral scale is difficult to clean completely,
especially in the case of deposits under the rim. A number of
studies have focused on kidney stones, which are also caused by
urine in the urinary tract; little attention, however, has been
paid to the detailed composition and structure of the toilet scale.

To develop powerful products for removing the toilet scale
effectively instead of relying on acid-cleaning and scrubbing,
the composition and the accumulation mechanism of the scale must
be clarified.

Scale samples collected from the bowl surface were characterized by
IR, XRF, XRD, ICP–AES, SEM–EDS and HPLC techniques and found to
consist mainly of

calcium phosphates
struvite
calcium carbonate
uric acid
proteins

After acid treatment of the scale, a film-like structure of protein,
produced as a result of the metabolism of bacteria and mold, was
left behind. The scale had composite structures that were composed
of the inorganic minerals and the organic materials listed above.
This structure might be critical to making the scale
*resistant to removal by acid-containing cleaners* . === Aha!!!
damn those scientist

And everyone has an angle grinder to grind. Imagine
a public organ using a commercial product as "educational"
material.

https://edu.rsc.org/download?ac=10991

harpic.pdf 640,397 bytes [Answers to questions at back.]

Hydrochloric Acid
PEG-2 Hydrogenated Tallow Ammonium Chloride surfactant
Tallowtrimonium Chloride surfactant
Isopropyl Alcohol
Laureth-10 surfactants/emulsifier
2-Propanol
NaCl flavor for the soap

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_Lime_Rust

Weak acid soup...

water
lactic acid
gluconic acid
lauramine oxide
propylene glycol
n-butyl ether
glycolic acid
sulfamic acid
disodium capryloamphodipropionate
ethylene glycol n-butyl ether
citric acid
(phosphoric acid in old version)

I guess that makes the perfect toilet bowl cleaner,
a mixture of HCL and liquid oxygen (for the protein) :-)
Or taking a stronger ****.

Paul

On Tuesday, 6 October 2020 15:32:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?

Brick cleaner.
Very strong so be careful, don't leave it in too long.

On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 14:00:56 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 07/10/2020 13:16, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/10/2020 20:26, AJH wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:40, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach
nor readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?

You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket
cleaner with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid
a bottle. The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.

Yes as has been said brick cleaning acid is the easiest obtainable,
main thing is to use little and leave long enough to neutralise
itself, it's fine in the pan but will react with any cement on its way
out if still active.

So follow it up with some caustic soda.

Bicarbonate of soda or washing soda is a lot safer to handle even if it
will fizz a bit.

Brick acid turns limescale into soluble calcium sulphate, and caustic
soda turns fat bergs into detergents and soaps. And turns brick acid
into sodium (bi) sulphate

Brick acid is hydrochloric - calcium chloride is fairly soluble whereas
calcium sulphate aka plaster or gypsum is only very slightly soluble.

Using sulphuric acid on limescale might flake some of it off but would
leave you with flakes of gypsum.

IME it does get it off, though a good bit slower than HCl. I presume it turns it into non-adhered powder or fine grit.


NT

On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 22:32:40 UTC+1, PeterC wrote:

Yes - sorry - I'd just read down-thread re. sodium hydroxide. BTW, HCl
doesn't 'burn' intacts skin even at about 50% (DAMHIK); H2SO4 and HNO3 do,
the latter leaving a brown stain - the other, more common type of brown
stain is less harmful!

Don't think I've ever seen 50% HCl, 34% is fuming


NT

On 07/10/2020 16:15, newshound wrote:
On 06/10/2020 20:26, AJH wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:40, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach
nor readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?




You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket
cleaner with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid
a bottle. The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.


Yes as has been said brick cleaning acid is the easiest obtainable,
main thing is to use little and leave long enough to neutralise
itself, it's fine in the pan but will react with any cement on its way
out if still active.

That's a fair point, although in a properly designed system it will be
running past any joints, not settling on them. Running washing machine
or dishwasher or having a shower after flushing will help. Or neutralise
in the pan with a whole bottle of ammonia.


Well having recently had the pleasure of cleaning a toilet that had not
been dealt with for many months due to a failing of social services I
can say that you need very little acid, I actually used phosphoric acid
as I had been derusting my gates, an egg cupful was enough with a bit of
agitation and scrubbing with the toilet brush. If you do small and often
it neutralises itself. Not a bad job compared with tackling the 2ft pile
of rotting vegetable and eggshells on the kitchen counter and the
strange growths in all the cooking pots and pans. Fridge next.

On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 11:29:22 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 22:32:40 UTC+1, PeterC wrote:

Yes - sorry - I'd just read down-thread re. sodium hydroxide. BTW, HCl
doesn't 'burn' intacts skin even at about 50% (DAMHIK); H2SO4 and HNO3 do,
the latter leaving a brown stain - the other, more common type of brown
stain is less harmful!

Don't think I've ever seen 50% HCl, 34% is fuming

NT

Yep - this was about 50 years ago - it was 50% of the concentration in the
bottle, so ~17% then.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





HG products usually do what they say on the can/bottle

It might have done what it says on the box

but it didn't do what it shows in the picture

my significantly less stained bowl than the one in their pictures is only
about 60% cleansed from one bottle of the stuff

Going to take a second bottle of something to finish the job off

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:53:29 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





HG products usually do what they say on the can/bottle

It might have done what it says on the box

but it didn't do what it shows in the picture

my significantly less stained bowl than the one in their pictures is only
about 60% cleansed from one bottle of the stuff

Going to take a second bottle of something to finish the job off

HCl 34% is about as effective as it gets. Nasty fumes, nasty liquid, but very quick.

The key thing with bog acids is to let them soak overnight.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 17:53:29 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





HG products usually do what they say on the can/bottle

It might have done what it says on the box

but it didn't do what it shows in the picture

my significantly less stained bowl than the one in their pictures is only
about 60% cleansed from one bottle of the stuff

Going to take a second bottle of something to finish the job off

HCl 34% is about as effective as it gets. Nasty fumes, nasty liquid, but
very quick.

The key thing with bog acids is to let them soak overnight.

The problem was that the scale was too thick to dissolve in one of two
applications. Trying to rub it off the top with the scouring pad was
ineffective.

But I solved the problem by soaking it in a weak acid and seeing if that had
weaken the bottom surface, which it had. Gently jabbing at it with a
screwdriver and it flaked off in large lumps.

Would have been better if this had been in the instructions and I would have
saved the second bottle of vinegar.








NT

On 06/10/2020 15:40, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?




You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket cleaner
with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid a bottle.
The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.

Or a skid mark......

On 06/10/2020 15:43, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 06 Oct 2020 15:40:54 +0100, Andy Bennet wrote:

On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?




You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket cleaner
with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid a bottle.
The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.

Could it not be removed mechanically by scouring ?


Angle grinder!!!!

On 06/10/2020 15:50, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:43, Jethro_uk wrote:

You need hydrochloric acid. Probably the strongest supermarket cleaner
with highest concentration of HCl is Harpic 10x, about a quid a bottle.
The stain is basically discoloured calcium carbonate.

Could it not be removed mechanically by scouring ?

If it's limescale it'll be rock solid. You might chip it off but if
there's scale you can see it's going to be just as bad on the blind side
that you can't get to.
Best off with a full de-coke as required.


what about kettle descaler and a kettleful of hot water?

On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 9:47:57 AM UTC-5, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?

Brick Acid.
Or for the feint of heart a more dilute version is available from your
average DIY sto
https://www.toolstation.com/bostik-c...cleaner/p29118
Pump out all the standing water from the u-bend with a bog brush or
whatever first and re-fill with the above. Leave overnight.
It's not a BigJob


i just took a closer look at this when i got home
not only does this show that you updated your preferences but it also shows that it was as expected!!!

I have had some success with some of these calcium lime rust removers available in most stores. CLR was one of the brands I used but you have to be careful if you have a septic system. Could mess with the flora.

As you have said it is not a big job but the key is to empty the bowl of water and shut the water off for a while.

if it sits long enough it will come off the way tartar does when the hygienist cleans your teeth

one really strange thing I bought that was really effective - a pumice brush. It is not a rock, but some sort of agglomeration of pumice particles on a stick so you can reach in the well or the rim of the bowl.

I thought it was going to be a useless purchase but it just about ripped the build up off without you having to stick your hand in the water. Very abrasive but absolutely did not scratch the ceramic. I found it was useful for a lot of other housework and outdoor work.

mk5000


Anastasia Steele: Cable ties, yes we do. I can show you if you want.

Christian Grey: Please lead the way, Miss Steele.

Anastasia Steele: Just Ana. Is that it?

Christian Grey: Masking tape.--Fifty Shades of Grey

"tim..." wrote in :

My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Domestos rather than supermarket bleach, which is a waste of money.

On Tue, 03 Nov 2020 23:39:54 +0000, JohnP wrote:

"tim..." wrote in
:

My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Domestos rather than supermarket bleach, which is a waste of money.

Brick acid is readily available from small independent ironmongers.

Don't forget the rubber gloves and the goggles, though.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 03/11/2020 22:11, marika wrote:
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 9:47:57 AM UTC-5, www.GymRatZ.co.uk
wrote:
On 06/10/2020 15:32, tim... wrote:
My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach
nor readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?

Brick Acid. Or for the feint of heart a more dilute version is
available from your average DIY sto
https://www.toolstation.com/bostik-c...cleaner/p29118


Pump out all the standing water from the u-bend with a bog brush or
whatever first and re-fill with the above. Leave overnight. It's
not a BigJob

i just took a closer look at this when i got home not only does this
show that you updated your preferences but it also shows that it was
as expected!!!

I have had some success with some of these calcium lime rust removers
available in most stores. CLR was one of the brands I used but you
have to be careful if you have a septic system. Could mess with the
flora.

I have a septic system - a modern sewage treatment plant using aerobic
bacteria. The only time it smells is when the motor fails to turn the
biodisc. I have poured gallons of acids and alkalis down it over the
years. Just make sure that you pour more gallons of water down as well
after the job is done.

As you have said it is not a big job but the key is to empty the bowl
of water and shut the water off for a while.

if it sits long enough it will come off the way tartar does when the
hygienist cleans your teeth

one really strange thing I bought that was really effective - a
pumice brush. It is not a rock, but some sort of agglomeration of
pumice particles on a stick so you can reach in the well or the rim
of the bowl.

I thought it was going to be a useless purchase but it just about
ripped the build up off without you having to stick your hand in the
water. Very abrasive but absolutely did not scratch the ceramic. I
found it was useful for a lot of other housework and outdoor work.

Only wusses bother with that. Stick your hand in the water.

multiple applications of descaler - of te toilet type, preferably - and
abrasion will remove any stained limescale. Then follow up with bleach
to get rid of any 'understains'...

Be wary of using Hcl. It does bad things to chrome.

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 03/11/2020 23:39, JohnP wrote:
"tim..." wrote in :

My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Domestos rather than supermarket bleach, which is a waste of money.

I find Domestos to be exactly as good or bad as waitrose essential bleach.


--
€œPuritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.€�

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On 03/11/2020 23:47, Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 03 Nov 2020 23:39:54 +0000, JohnP wrote:

"tim..." wrote in
:

My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?





Domestos rather than supermarket bleach, which is a waste of money.

Brick acid is readily available from small independent ironmongers.

Don't forget the rubber gloves and the goggles, though.

Don't be a wuss. But be very careful. It discolors chrome badly.

In use if it falls on your skin you will know it and rinse it under cold
water till it stops hurting.


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

On Thursday, 8 October 2020 22:56:19 UTC+1, AJH wrote:
Fridge next.


Just buy a new one. Honestly.

Owain

On 03/11/2020 19:24, No Name wrote:

If it's limescale it'll be rock solid. You might chip it off but if
there's scale you can see it's going to be just as bad on the blind side
that you can't get to.
Best off with a full de-coke as required.


what about kettle descaler and a kettleful of hot water?

Cools down too quickly.
Proper acid is by far the best and can be left in to work over night.

Just make sure it's flushed before taking a dump as you wouldn't want
splash-back.

On 04/11/2020 10:14, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 03/11/2020 19:24, No Name wrote:

If it's limescale it'll be rock solid. You might chip it off but if
there's scale you can see it's going to be just as bad on the blind side
that you can't get to.
Best off with a full de-coke as required.


what about kettle descaler and a kettleful of hot water?

Cools down too quickly.
Proper acid is by far the best and can be left in to work over night.

Just make sure it's flushed before taking a dump as you wouldn't want
splash-back.

I have used Hcl and toilet descaler. The problem with Hcl is two fold,
firstly as it fizzes away the surface gets covered in calcium chloride
which takes time to disperse, so you need to scrub away a bit to break
it all up if you want things to happen fast.

The second is its a bit too aggressive on metals.

Proprietary gel type descaler works well enough -just shove it in every
night and use a bog brush every morning - it will in the end dissolve
just as much as HCl, and its much safer.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On Tuesday, 6 October 2020 15:32:57 UTC+1, tim... wrote:

My toilet pan has a stain below the watermark that neither bleach nor
readily available acid (vinegar) will remove

what stronger products are easily available that will remove it?

People have talked about one off removal. You can prevent it needing to be removed by dumping any canned or bottled food liquids in the bowl last thing at night. Just leave the container on the lid - someone finding a bog full of bright red can provoke panic. Yeah, I forgot once. Anyway, that eliminates almost all need for cleaner.


NT