Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

On 19/09/2020 15:23, David Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

Is the landing light on a 2 way switch circuit from downstairs?

In article , David
Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting
circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is
on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?


Crossed live & neutral somewhere?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

David Paste wrote on 19/09/2020 :
Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is
OFF at the fuse board.

...and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 15:29:22 UTC+1, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:

Is the landing light on a 2 way switch circuit from downstairs?

I'm fairly certain, yeah.

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 15:57:21 UTC+1, charles wrote:

Crossed live & neutral somewhere?

Wouldn't that just trip the fuse board, or something?

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1, wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Thanks.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 08:21:36 -0700, David Paste wrote:

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1,
wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Thanks.

It seems obvious from what you describe that supplying power to the
upstairs light circuit prevents this light from working.

If you feel up to it you should trace the wires from downstairs to
upstairs and to the light fitting to make sure that there are no wires
from the upstairs lighting circuit connected at any place.

You would need some kind of MultiMeter to check for current and continuity.

However possibly better to leave this to an electrician unless you already
have a pretty clear idea of how house wiring works (or should work).

Cheers


Dave R

--
Dell Latitude 7280 with Full HD and Thunderbolt (woo hoo)

In article ,
David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1, wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Almost certainly a pro who did this bodge in the first place. ;-)

--
*I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 07:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
David Paste wrote:

Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit.
The landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs
lighting circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting
circuit is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights
operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

What does it do when it is not operating correctly?

On 19/09/2020 15:29, Jack Harry Teesdale wrote:
On 19/09/2020 15:23, David Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting
circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit
is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate
normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

Is the landing light on a 2 way switch circuit from downstairs?
two way stair light switching

On 19/09/2020 16:21, David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1, wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Its DIYable if you take it step by step...

Here is an overview of some of the common ways lighting circuits are wired:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nners#Lighting

and here are the common ways of doing 2 way switching (i.e. one lamp
switched from two (or more) locations):

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching



Now, one of the common bodges you will see done is to borrow a neutral
connection from the "other" circuit. (this is dangerous practice at best!)

Now in this case I am guessing that is how your circuit was wired, but
with the added complication that your "borrowed neutral" has actually
been connected to a live on the upstairs circuit and not a neutral.

So when the upstairs circuit is off at the fuse board, the live is left
floating, but will still be connected indirectly to neutral via any
lamps or other loads currently "on" on that circuit (and pulling a fuse
or turning off a MCB does not usually disconnect the neutral).

When did this problem first start?

Have there been any recent changes to the electrical system?




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19/09/2020 16:21, David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1, wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Thanks.

Depends really on your competence and confidence (in that order). It
might not be fixable just by swapping wires at the switches, you might
be missing one wire running between upstairs and downstairs (a plausible
DIY error that a professional wouldn't make). The fault may have been
introduced by a wiring modification.

Or it could be that the wires are there, they are just connected
slightly wrong (perhaps after someone replaced a broken switch).

"Proper" two way wiring will use cable with three insulated wires plus
an earth (used to be red, yellow, and blue but I think that has
changed). Or it can be done more wastefully with two sets of "twin plus
earth.

Easier to diagnose if you only have single switches top and bottom. A
bit more complicated if there are two or even three gang switches.

If it is just one switch at each end, unscrew the switches each end
(with the power off) and pull them out for a look. That may show if you
have "3+E" cable. If your consumer unit has a residual current trip on
the lighting circuit it's difficult to electrocute yourself even with
the power on. You will need a multimeter (or volt stick or, at a pinch,
neon screwdriver) to poke around in live circuitry to work out what is
going on. Plenty of diagrams on the web. Label the wires and draw a
diagram of what you have.

But remember you can't sue on the basis of advice from the net.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 08:19:44 -0700 (PDT), David Paste wrote:


Crossed live & neutral somewhere?

Wouldn't that just trip the fuse board, or something?

If it was a swap yes, but I think we are really just talking about a
wire being connnected to live when it should be connected to neutral
(or the opposite).

The light doesn't work because it has the same voltage either side of
it, be that voltage be effectively nothing (neutral both sides) or
230 V (live both sides).

When it works the current is finding another way to flow to complete
the ciruit. It might not be flowing in the direction you think it
ought to be as well.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 16:46:27 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live
of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed
to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a
professional?

Almost certainly a pro who did this bodge in the first place. ;-)

To be fair until the advent of RCDs everywhere the "borowed neutral"
for two way switching wasn't a problem. We have one here, though
using the term "professional" for who ever did the wiring in that
part of the building might be pushing it a bit.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 07:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
David Paste wrote:

Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit.
The landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs
lighting circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting
circuit is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights
operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

My guess is that the light has 2 lives (instead of live and neutral) and
only gets a path to neutral (through a shaver socket, or something of
the sort) when the upstairs circuit is not powered.

On 19/09/2020 17:12, John Rumm wrote:


How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Its DIYable if you take it step by step...

Here is an overview of some of the common ways lighting circuits are wired:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nners#Lighting

and here are the common ways of doing 2 way switching (i.e. one lamp
switched from two (or more) locations):

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching



Now, one of the common bodges you will see done is to borrow a neutral
connection from the "other" circuit. (this is dangerous practice at best!)

Now in this case I am guessing that is how your circuit was wired, but
with the added complication that your "borrowed neutral" has actually
been connected to a live on the upstairs circuit and not a neutral.

So when the upstairs circuit is off at the fuse board, the live is left
floating, but will still be connected indirectly to neutral via any
lamps or other loads currently "on" on that circuit (and pulling a fuse
or turning off a MCB does not usually disconnect the neutral).

When did this problem first start?

Have there been any recent changes to the electrical system?




I knew John would be along with an explanation and a Wiki link soon!

On 19 Sep 2020 at 15:23:35 BST, "David Paste" wrote:

Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is
OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is on, the landing
light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

Are you saying the landing light won't go on when the upstairs circuit is
powered, or that it won't turn off when the upstairs circuit is powered? When
the landing light comes on, is it normal brightness for the size of bulb used?
Is it an incandescent bulb or fluorescent or LED?

--
Roger Hayter

On 19/09/2020 19:04, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 19 Sep 2020 at 15:23:35 BST, "David Paste" wrote:

Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is
OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is on, the landing
light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

Are you saying the landing light won't go on when the upstairs circuit is
powered, or that it won't turn off when the upstairs circuit is powered? When
the landing light comes on, is it normal brightness for the size of bulb used?





Is it an incandescent bulb or fluorescent or LED?

Thanks for asking the question I was going to ask:-)


--
Adam

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:28:00 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:

However possibly better to leave this to an electrician unless you already
have a pretty clear idea of how house wiring works (or should work).

Yes, there s a tame one on hand, so he will be deployed sooner or later, I think!

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:53:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Almost certainly a pro who did this bodge in the first place. ;-)



Ah no, I have to say that the previous owner is the superstar who inflicted this, and many, MANY other eff-ups on the place. Gnashing of teeth is a frequent event.

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 17:12:34 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Its DIYable if you take it step by step...

Here is an overview of some of the common ways lighting circuits are wired:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nners#Lighting

and here are the common ways of doing 2 way switching (i.e. one lamp
switched from two (or more) locations):

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching



Now, one of the common bodges you will see done is to borrow a neutral
connection from the "other" circuit. (this is dangerous practice at best!)

Now in this case I am guessing that is how your circuit was wired, but
with the added complication that your "borrowed neutral" has actually
been connected to a live on the upstairs circuit and not a neutral.

So when the upstairs circuit is off at the fuse board, the live is left
floating, but will still be connected indirectly to neutral via any
lamps or other loads currently "on" on that circuit (and pulling a fuse
or turning off a MCB does not usually disconnect the neutral).

When did this problem first start?

Have there been any recent changes to the electrical system?

Cheers John.

It isn't my house, and one I only get to see every month or so. It is a family member who has recently moved in to it. The previous owner was a bit of a "let's have a go!" type. Some of his "improvements" are anything but.

It's a 1950s (or so) house, but none of us have any idea of the age of the wiring. The lighting circuit is using red & black wires though, from what I saw. There is also an electric car charging circuit.

The problem has been present since they moved in, so I suspect that it was never actually fixed from when the tic turd wired it in.

I just don't understand how the two circuits can be cross-contaminated if they are supposed to be separate.

Thanks for the links, I shall give them a thorough read.

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 17:15:30 UTC+1, newshound wrote:

Depends really on your competence and confidence (in that order).

I'm OK investigating things, I know my limitations. Actually rectifying anything will be taken a lot more cautiously.

But remember you can't sue on the basis of advice from the net.

Ha!

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:58:58 UTC+1, Pink wrote:

What does it do when it is not operating correctly?

Doesn't come on at all.

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 19:04:39 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:

Are you saying the landing light won't go on when the upstairs circuit is
powered,

Yes, that's right.

When the landing light comes on, is it normal brightness for the size of
bulb used?

Yes.

Is it an incandescent bulb or fluorescent or LED?

LED (from IKEA)

Thanks.

On 19 Sep 2020 at 23:37:29 BST, "David Paste" wrote:

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 19:04:39 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:

Are you saying the landing light won't go on when the upstairs circuit is
powered,

Yes, that's right.

When the landing light comes on, is it normal brightness for the size of
bulb used?

Yes.

Is it an incandescent bulb or fluorescent or LED?

LED (from IKEA)

Thanks.

Then I agree with the person who suggested that the landing light has no
neutral supply from its own circuit, but the neutral terminal of the actual
lamp holder is connected only to the live of the upstair circuit. When the
upstairs circuit is unpowered there is enough leakage from live to neutral
upstairs (through lights that are on or perhaps a transformer or something
else which is always on like a fan controller) to allow sufficient current
from the downstairs live (when the proper switches for the landing light are
in an on position) which is correctly connected through the landing light
bulb and then via the upstairs live (which is disconnected at the CU as you
say) to the upstairs neutral, which is still connected to the house neutral as
the MCB for the upstairs circuit is single pole. It doesn't take much current
to drive an LED.

Perhaps more complex miswiring could also account for the findings, but this
seems the most simple explanation! It is quite conventional to use twin and
earth cable to a switch so that both the red (in old wiring) conventionally
live wire and the black (in old wiring) conventionally neutral wire are
connected to live. In this case the black wire should have had red sleeving
near the terminal. It is quite possible that in borrowing a neutral from the
upstairs circuit (which is forbidden for many reasons) the person who wired
the landing light in fact connected his borrowed 'neutral' to a live black
wire in a handy nearby terminal. He may have missed the sleeving or may never
have used it.




Roger Hayter

On 19/09/2020 23:30, David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 17:12:34 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


When did this problem first start?

Have there been any recent changes to the electrical system?

Cheers John.

It isn't my house, and one I only get to see every month or so. It is
a family member who has recently moved in to it. The previous owner
was a bit of a "let's have a go!" type. Some of his "improvements"
are anything but.

It's a 1950s (or so) house, but none of us have any idea of the age
of the wiring. The lighting circuit is using red & black wires
though, from what I saw. There is also an electric car charging
circuit.

Its possible the lighting circuits are original... Once check would be
to see if they have earthing. Pre 1966 there was no requirement for
lighting circuits to be earthed.


The problem has been present since they moved in, so I suspect that
it was never actually fixed from when the tic turd wired it in.

ok that makes it a bit harder to identify likely places to look remotely!


I just don't understand how the two circuits can be
cross-contaminated if they are supposed to be separate.

One possibility is that the system uses a deprecated wiring
configuration like this:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Depricated.png

Where the live feed is taken from the switch downstairs, and then the
neutral for the lamp is connected to that of the circuit upstairs.

However in this case an error has connected it to a live from upstairs.
So it only works when power to the upstairs circuit is off, and it cans
"see" an neutral though the loads (i.e. other lamps) upstairs.

It would help to know what types of lamps are in use as well.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19/09/2020 17:15, newshound wrote:
On 19/09/2020 16:21, David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:17:02 UTC+1,
Â* wrote:

..and presumably when an upstairs light has been left turned on?

No, U/S circuit off, all U/S room light switches off.

Neutral for landing light, is connected to what would be the live of
the upstairs lighting circuit. The neutral needs to be directed to a
neutral of the downstair lighting cuircuit.

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Thanks.

Depends really on your competence and confidence (in that order). It
might not be fixable just by swapping wires at the switches, you might
be missing one wire running between upstairs and downstairs (a plausible
DIY error that a professional wouldn't make). The fault may have been
introduced by a wiring modification.

Or it could be that the wires are there, they are just connected
slightly wrong (perhaps after someone replaced a broken switch).

One very common problem can occur when someone fiddles with a ceiling
rose, and they get confused by the cable that connects to the switch,
since it has one live and one neutral, but in fact both are live - one
permanent and one switched.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, 19 September 2020 15:23:38 UTC+1, David Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Probably a "borrowed neutral"
ie a neutral that should be on the upstairs circuit is connected to the downstairs.

On 19/09/2020 17:23, Dave Liquorice wrote:


To be fair until the advent of RCDs everywhere the "borowed neutral"
for two way switching wasn't a problem.

Until you swap a light fitting.....



--
Adam

If its always done it sounds a bit like somebody has used a live from the do
upstairs circuit somewhere, I'm surprised all sorts of other funnies do not
occur as well, though but the two way switch might be to blame here.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jack Harry Teesdale" wrote in message
...
On 19/09/2020 15:23, David Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting
circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is
on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate
normally.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance,

David Paste.

Is the landing light on a 2 way switch circuit from downstairs?

Would not that result in a bit of a bang?
I was pondering though if its not something similar. What about putting
tungsten bulbs in, does that make any difference?I remember when our house
was rewired, the electrician had one light you could not actually turn off,
was just a crossed switch and live in the rose in the end he said.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , David
Paste wrote:
Hello,

I am not an electrician.

Upstairs landing light is part of the downstairs lighting circuit. The
landing light only operates (correctly) when the upstairs lighting
circuit is OFF at the fuse board. When the upstairs lighting circuit is
on, the landing light does not operate. All other lights operate
normally.

Anyone have any ideas?


Crossed live & neutral somewhere?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 09:47:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

To be fair until the advent of RCDs everywhere the "borowed
neutral"
for two way switching wasn't a problem.

Until you swap a light fitting.....

Sorry don't follow. I'm thinking of CU's with nothing but a main
switch and single pole MCBs/Fuses. All the neutrals are joined
together at the CU. Once you start separating the neutrals via RCD's,
RCBO's or a split load CU then you have to be careful.

"Fitting" to me is the fancy bit with the light bulbs etc connected
by just two wires, SW live and a neutral to the ceiling rose. (+
earth if the fitting is metallic).

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 20/09/2020 10:44, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 09:47:06 +0100, ARW wrote:

To be fair until the advent of RCDs everywhere the "borowed
neutral"
for two way switching wasn't a problem.

Until you swap a light fitting.....

Sorry don't follow. I'm thinking of CU's with nothing but a main
switch and single pole MCBs/Fuses. All the neutrals are joined
together at the CU. Once you start separating the neutrals via RCD's,
RCBO's or a split load CU then you have to be careful.

"Fitting" to me is the fancy bit with the light bulbs etc connected
by just two wires, SW live and a neutral to the ceiling rose. (+
earth if the fitting is metallic).


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Loop-in_Wiring

Remove that pendant on the upstairs light with the upstairs MCB off and
you could well soon be swearing when you find out the landing light is
on the downstairs circuit MCB and has borrowed a neutral from the
upstairs lighting circuit

--
Adam

On 20/09/2020 01:15, John Rumm wrote:

One very common problem can occur when someone fiddles with a ceiling
rose, and they get confused by the cable that connects to the switch,
since it has one live and one neutral, but in fact both are live - one
permanent and one switched.


Yes indeed. Many years ago I put in a "rise and fall" lamp for the
dinner table and my friend and neighbour decided he had to have one too.
A Cambridge trained medical doctor with research at Oxford, London, and
somewhere Ivy League. He could have equally successfully pursued
alternative careers as an opera singer or a professional golfer.

When he called me in, I found all the reds wired together, and all the
blacks.

In article ,
David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:53:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Almost certainly a pro who did this bodge in the first place. ;-)



Ah no, I have to say that the previous owner is the superstar who
inflicted this, and many, MANY other eff-ups on the place. Gnashing of
teeth is a frequent event.

Not usual to find funnies with lights on two floors with two way
switching. When there are separate circuits for the floors.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 11:46:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
David Paste wrote:
On Saturday, 19 September 2020 16:53:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

How would one identify and fix this, or is it a job for a professional?

Almost certainly a pro who did this bodge in the first place. ;-)



Ah no, I have to say that the previous owner is the superstar who
inflicted this, and many, MANY other eff-ups on the place. Gnashing of
teeth is a frequent event.

Not usual to find funnies with lights on two floors with two way
switching. When there are separate circuits for the floors.

When I was changing luminaires and going (almost) all LED I rewired the
landing and hall so that they are both supplied entirely by the downstairs
circuit. This circuit has about 60% of the lighting load on it but the total
for the two MCBs, inc. the florries in the loft, is around 200W so the 6A
MCBs aren't exactly overloaded.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Sunday, 20 September 2020 11:47:57 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not usual to find funnies with lights on two floors with two way
switching. When there are separate circuits for the floors.

This is what bothers me. It is such a stupid mistake to make, especially if it was the bloke who lived there who did the wiring. Means he's just lived with the bull**** rather than fixing his own mistakes. What else is lurking?!

On Sunday, 20 September 2020 01:07:54 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Its possible the lighting circuits are original... Once check would be
to see if they have earthing. Pre 1966 there was no requirement for
lighting circuits to be earthed.


The problem has been present since they moved in, so I suspect that
it was never actually fixed from when the tic turd wired it in.

ok that makes it a bit harder to identify likely places to look remotely!


I just don't understand how the two circuits can be
cross-contaminated if they are supposed to be separate.

One possibility is that the system uses a deprecated wiring
configuration like this:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Depricated.png

Where the live feed is taken from the switch downstairs, and then the
neutral for the lamp is connected to that of the circuit upstairs.

However in this case an error has connected it to a live from upstairs.
So it only works when power to the upstairs circuit is off, and it cans
"see" an neutral though the loads (i.e. other lamps) upstairs.

It would help to know what types of lamps are in use as well.


Thanks John. I will do a better recording of the details next time I am there.

newshound wrote:

all the reds wired together, and all the blacks

Neighbour had builders in, they dropped the kitchen ceiling, connected
all the loose wires exactly like that then left for the evening ...