Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:04:33 -0700, Keefiedee wrote:

Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected
to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come
on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch,
the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the
immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

We fit these at work, and they are very reliable:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Horstmann-E.../dp/B006E8BDTE

Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected
to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on
during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the
switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion
heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?


This is probably as simple and cheap as the come, without being of dubious
quality:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/greenbroo...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

It is an easy job, possibly just about ok part P wise ( the rules covering
notifiable work), but if you arent confident get someone in.

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote in
o.uk:

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is
connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just
to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of
knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be
wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to
the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the
other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.


Surely unless a Storage heater circuit then it is merly a dial tarrif
meter.

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:25:48 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

It is normal to connect the immersion to the general supply so you
can "boost" the hot water during the day... If it wasn't on the
general supply and you used all the stored hot water you'd have to
wait for the off peak period to get more hot water...

OP is looking for an immersion heater controller this incorporates a
time switch to switch it on during the offpeak period and a "boost"
button that switches it on for say an hour when pushed.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Max Demian wrote:
On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected
to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come
on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch,
the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the
immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.


I have E7. Everything is on it. The meter just records on the appropriate
dials at the appropriate times.

Useful for several things, including self cleaning oven, running the
washing machine, dishwasher overnight.

On Tuesday, 15 September 2020 17:04:38 UTC+1, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

A pin timer or segment timer. Digital electronic timers are less easy to use & less reliable.


NT

On 15/09/2020 17:54, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:25:48 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

It is normal to connect the immersion to the general supply so you
can "boost" the hot water during the day... If it wasn't on the
general supply and you used all the stored hot water you'd have to
wait for the off peak period to get more hot water...

OP is looking for an immersion heater controller this incorporates a
time switch to switch it on during the offpeak period and a "boost"
button that switches it on for say an hour when pushed.

Well when I had Economy 7 there was an immersion at the bottom of the
tank on offpeak, and another one at the top of the tank I could have on
any time I liked. The offpeak one was all I needed, but I did have an
electric shower, so the tank was only needed for hand and face washing
and washing up.

--
Max Demian

On 15/09/2020 17:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:25:48 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

I had E7 in my last property. The whole house went onto it between
midnight and 7AM, approximately. But the immersion heater was simply
plugged into a 13A socket in the airing cupboard, so was only on E7
during the night. The rest of the day it was on at the standard rate,
unless it was switched on/off manually, and someone remembered...
I just used a plug-in timer, one of these https://tinyurl.com/yykcfq3r


I used an earlier version of one of those when I had Economy 7. However
one day I worked out that I did not use enough off peak electricity for
the tariff to be worth while so I change to a normal tariff.

--
Michael Chare

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is
connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just
to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of
knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be
wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to
the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the
other side of the timer.

Simple?

Pretty much

So what sort of timer should I buy?

At risk of stating the obvious, its worth getting one designed for
immersion control. That way with the better ones you get things like a
"boost" capability where you can turn the immersion on manually for a
fixed period of time at any time. So if you realised you need more hot
water before the next nightly re-heat you can do it easily and not have
to worry about manually turning it off again.

Mechanical ones are simple and easy to use but dumb (usually don't have
battery backup to keep running in a power cut, or know what to swap to
and from daylight saving time etc). They are typically 24 hour only.
Many of them also make a certain amount of noise can sometimes be heard
in a quiet room or get transmitted though the fabric of the building.

Digital ones give more toys and flexibility, and posher ones allow for
different time settings on different days - which may or may not matter
depending on circumstances.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 07:16:56 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

Mechanical ones are simple and easy to use but dumb (usually don't
have
battery backup to keep running in a power cut, or know what to
swap to
and from daylight saving time etc).

In my case, the main E7/normal tariff control was a big mechanical
clock adjacent to the CU. It was always set on GMT - never changed for
BST,

Same here and the lack of battery backup with a mechnical timer means
you have to remember to at least keep an eye on it to make sure
culmlative power cuts haven't "adjusted" it's on time to oustide the
cheap rate period.

A proper E7 immersion control is the best solution and I suspect you
can get ones that deal with the two heaters situation as well. ie
have a "boost" that only powers the top heater and thus only heat the
top of the tank or "full boost" that powers the bottom heater and
thus heats the whole tank.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?
We have a hot-water tank with 2 immersion heaters, the upper one
connected to the normal 24/7 mains and the bottom one coming on as
above, same for the storage heater(s) presumably the "modern" approach
is to switch the whole house to E7 rate rather than specific appliances?

On 16 Sep 2020 at 10:20:49 BST, ""www.GymRatZ.co.uk""
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to
Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on
during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the
switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion
heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?

Not quite. There is only one meter for *all* the circuits in the house. The
Economy 7 switch does two things; it changes the meter setting so it records
on the low rate meter. And it connects loads that only need to be operated
during the economy 7 period. But during the low rate periods *all* the
electricity in the house is metered at the low rate. There are two advantages
of connecting something to the Economy 7 switch rather than the 24hour supply.
One is that you don't need a separate timer and switch, and quite a
considerable load is switched for you. But the other is that, at least in
some areas in the early days, the Economy 7 period could be varied in starting
time by the supplier so any other time switches would be likely to be
unsynchronised with the actual low rate. I am not sure if this is still
true, And, of course, time switches are cheaper and more available so there
is less point in wiriing things to the Economy 7 switch. It is a severe
nuisance not being able to use heaters wired to the Economy 7 switch at any
other time, and modern storage heaters are, I believe, wired to both supplies
so the can have the automatic switching at cheap rate times, but also have
their heat boosted with more expensive electricity if you so wish, for
instance in the evening. But at any given time all the electricity used in
the house is metered at the current rate.




We have a hot-water tank with 2 immersion heaters, the upper one
connected to the normal 24/7 mains and the bottom one coming on as
above, same for the storage heater(s) presumably the "modern" approach
is to switch the whole house to E7 rate rather than specific appliances?


--
Roger Hayter

On 16/09/2020 09:15, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 07:16:56 +0100, Chris Hogg wrote:

Mechanical ones are simple and easy to use but dumb (usually don't
have
battery backup to keep running in a power cut, or know what to
swap to
and from daylight saving time etc).

In my case, the main E7/normal tariff control was a big mechanical
clock adjacent to the CU. It was always set on GMT - never changed for
BST,

Same here and the lack of battery backup with a mechnical timer means
you have to remember to at least keep an eye on it to make sure
culmlative power cuts haven't "adjusted" it's on time to oustide the
cheap rate period.

Usually with that kind of setup, the E7 timer is what defines the cheap
rate period since its control output is also fed to the meter, and
controls which register the consumption is recorded against. They are
supposed to keep on going during power cuts, but don't always.

(we had one that just decided to stop one day, and leave it permanently
peak rate).

A proper E7 immersion control is the best solution and I suspect you
can get ones that deal with the two heaters situation as well. ie
have a "boost" that only powers the top heater and thus only heat the
top of the tank or "full boost" that powers the bottom heater and
thus heats the whole tank.

Yup, and if your wiring is split so that you have some parts only
energised during the cheap rate period, then wire the immersion heater
controller to the "always on" bit so that you have have boost during the
day.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 16/09/2020 11:21, Roger Hayter wrote:

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?

Not quite. There is only one meter for *all* the circuits in the house. The
Economy 7 switch does two things; it changes the meter setting so it records
on the low rate meter. And it connects loads that only need to be operated
during the economy 7 period. But during the low rate periods *all* the
electricity in the house is metered at the low rate. There are two advantages
of connecting something to the Economy 7 switch rather than the 24hour supply.
One is that you don't need a separate timer and switch, and quite a
considerable load is switched for you. But the other is that, at least in
some areas in the early days, the Economy 7 period could be varied in starting
time by the supplier so any other time switches would be likely to be
unsynchronised with the actual low rate. I am not sure if this is still
true, And, of course, time switches are cheaper and more available so there
is less point in wiriing things to the Economy 7 switch. It is a severe
nuisance not being able to use heaters wired to the Economy 7 switch at any
other time, and modern storage heaters are, I believe, wired to both supplies
so the can have the automatic switching at cheap rate times, but also have
their heat boosted with more expensive electricity if you so wish, for
instance in the evening. But at any given time all the electricity used in
the house is metered at the current rate.

Thanks for the explanation Roger, I hadn't really thought about it
before. Much appreciated.
Cheers - Pete

When you say its economy 7, is it connected to the economy 7 supply, as this
is in fact off during the day, so any timer used has to have a battery
backed up clock if you want it to be on for different times during the off
peak hours, ie just say for an hour, the than all the time economy 7 is live
controlled by its thermostat only. However if you have it supplied from the
normal supply, which mine is it can of course be controlled to come on any
time, including during economy 7 times. I like this as it allows me to boost
it should I need to at more expensive of course.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Keefiedee" wrote in message
...
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to
Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on
during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the
switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion
heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

On 16/09/2020 07:22, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:27:53 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:25:48 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

I had E7 in my last property. The whole house went onto it between
midnight and 7AM, approximately. But the immersion heater was simply
plugged into a 13A socket in the airing cupboard, so was only on E7
during the night. The rest of the day it was on at the standard rate,
unless it was switched on/off manually, and someone remembered...
I just used a plug-in timer, one of these https://tinyurl.com/yykcfq3r


I used an earlier version of one of those when I had Economy 7. However
one day I worked out that I did not use enough off peak electricity for
the tariff to be worth while so I change to a normal tariff.

It _is_ worth doing the calculation, because, in case the OP doesn't
realise, the daytime rate is a little more expensive than the 'normal'
tariff, and unless you use a lot of E7 electricity and not so much at
the daytime rate, being on E7 can work out more expensive. Mine was
borderline, so ICBA to change it.


I have a E7/daytime tariff meter.

I did a excel exercise to work out the breakeven point between e7
tariff/daytime tariff vs Standard tariff given the pence per kWh for
each tariff.

I plotted a graph where the x -axis showed the % to E7 to total
electricity running from 0% to 100% and a straight line plot of the
standard 24 hour tariff.

The graph showed that if 33% or more of your total electricity was
during E7 hours it was cheaper than 24/7 standard tariff.

I have kept an eye on my two sets of meter readings and for the past 9
years, 33% of my electricity consumption has been during E7 hours so my
bills literally sit on the breakeven point so both tariffs worked out
the same in the final billing!

On 15/09/2020 19:07, Radio Man wrote:
Max Demian wrote:
On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected
to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come
on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch,
the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the
immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.


I have E7. Everything is on it. The meter just records on the appropriate
dials at the appropriate times.

Useful for several things, including self cleaning oven, running the
washing machine, dishwasher overnight.


I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine on
timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

On 16 Sep 2020 at 15:13:54 BST, "No Name" wrote:

On 16/09/2020 07:22, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:27:53 +0100, Michael Chare
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:25:48 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected
to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come
on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers -
obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch,
the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the
immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

Surely if it's "connected to Economy 7" it'll already be controlled.
Perhaps you mean that your flat has an Economy 7 supply but the
immersion is connected to the general supply.

I had E7 in my last property. The whole house went onto it between
midnight and 7AM, approximately. But the immersion heater was simply
plugged into a 13A socket in the airing cupboard, so was only on E7
during the night. The rest of the day it was on at the standard rate,
unless it was switched on/off manually, and someone remembered...
I just used a plug-in timer, one of these https://tinyurl.com/yykcfq3r


I used an earlier version of one of those when I had Economy 7. However
one day I worked out that I did not use enough off peak electricity for
the tariff to be worth while so I change to a normal tariff.

It _is_ worth doing the calculation, because, in case the OP doesn't
realise, the daytime rate is a little more expensive than the 'normal'
tariff, and unless you use a lot of E7 electricity and not so much at
the daytime rate, being on E7 can work out more expensive. Mine was
borderline, so ICBA to change it.


I have a E7/daytime tariff meter.

I did a excel exercise to work out the breakeven point between e7
tariff/daytime tariff vs Standard tariff given the pence per kWh for
each tariff.

I plotted a graph where the x -axis showed the % to E7 to total
electricity running from 0% to 100% and a straight line plot of the
standard 24 hour tariff.

The graph showed that if 33% or more of your total electricity was
during E7 hours it was cheaper than 24/7 standard tariff.

I have kept an eye on my two sets of meter readings and for the past 9
years, 33% of my electricity consumption has been during E7 hours so my
bills literally sit on the breakeven point so both tariffs worked out
the same in the final billing!

This does depend on the particular supplier. They each have different E7
'discounts' and daytime extra charges. One I was with till their cheap tariff
ran out broke even at about 25%.
--
Roger Hayter

On 16/09/2020 11:21, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 16 Sep 2020 at 10:20:49 BST, ""www.GymRatZ.co.uk""
wrote:

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?

Not quite. There is only one meter for *all* the circuits in the house. The
Economy 7 switch does two things; it changes the meter setting so it records
on the low rate meter. And it connects loads that only need to be operated
during the economy 7 period. But during the low rate periods *all* the
electricity in the house is metered at the low rate. There are two advantages
of connecting something to the Economy 7 switch rather than the 24hour supply.
One is that you don't need a separate timer and switch, and quite a
considerable load is switched for you. But the other is that, at least in
some areas in the early days, the Economy 7 period could be varied in starting
time by the supplier so any other time switches would be likely to be
unsynchronised with the actual low rate. I am not sure if this is still
true, And, of course, time switches are cheaper and more available so there
is less point in wiriing things to the Economy 7 switch. It is a severe
nuisance not being able to use heaters wired to the Economy 7 switch at any
other time, and modern storage heaters are, I believe, wired to both supplies
so the can have the automatic switching at cheap rate times, but also have
their heat boosted with more expensive electricity if you so wish, for
instance in the evening. But at any given time all the electricity used in
the house is metered at the current rate.

There are dual heat storage heaters that have a separate element
connected to the always on supply, with an air thermostat. Useful if it
runs out of stored heat in the evening; hot air comes out immediately.

I don't know whether they are better nowadays, but when I had one
(installed in the late 80s I think), I had to set the control according
to the forecast temperature the following day, and the slider on top
that let out extra heat wasn't much use as by the time it's needed most
of the heat is gone.

You are more or less obliged to heat the place 24 hours: you can't turn
it off if you are going out for the day, and you can't turn it off (or
down) at night when you don't really need much space heating.

--
Max Demian

On 16/09/2020 12:11, www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 16/09/2020 11:21, Roger Hayter wrote:

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?

Not quite. There is only one meter for *all* the circuits in the house. The
Economy 7 switch does two things; it changes the meter setting so it records
on the low rate meter. And it connects loads that only need to be operated
during the economy 7 period. But during the low rate periods *all* the
electricity in the house is metered at the low rate. There are two advantages
of connecting something to the Economy 7 switch rather than the 24hour supply.
One is that you don't need a separate timer and switch, and quite a
considerable load is switched for you. But the other is that, at least in
some areas in the early days, the Economy 7 period could be varied in starting
time by the supplier so any other time switches would be likely to be
unsynchronised with the actual low rate. I am not sure if this is still
true, And, of course, time switches are cheaper and more available so there
is less point in wiriing things to the Economy 7 switch. It is a severe
nuisance not being able to use heaters wired to the Economy 7 switch at any
other time, and modern storage heaters are, I believe, wired to both supplies
so the can have the automatic switching at cheap rate times, but also have
their heat boosted with more expensive electricity if you so wish, for
instance in the evening. But at any given time all the electricity used in
the house is metered at the current rate.

Thanks for the explanation Roger, I hadn't really thought about it
before. Much appreciated.

Probably worth noting that you can also have a dual rate meter (that
replaces the separate time switch) and no load switching at all. So
basically all that happens is that from 00:00 to 07:00 (or whatever) it
records use against one counter, and then switches to the other counter
for the rest of the time.

That then relies entirely on the customer's controls to schedule use
when appropriate.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Wednesday, 16 September 2020 11:21:14 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 16 Sep 2020 at 10:20:49 BST, ""www.GymRatZ.co.uk""
wrote:
On 15/09/2020 17:04, Keefiedee wrote:

I thought Economy 7 had two separate meters and all the economy 7 stuff
was wired back to the E7 meter while the stuff you want on 24h/day went
to the normal meter. In effect 2 different mains circuits with the E7
appliances only getting power from the meter when E7 rate kicks in
sometime around 02:00?

Not quite. There is only one meter for *all* the circuits in the house. The
Economy 7 switch does two things; it changes the meter setting so it records
on the low rate meter. And it connects loads that only need to be operated
during the economy 7 period. But during the low rate periods *all* the
electricity in the house is metered at the low rate.

It can be done either way. What you describe is the more modern approach.


NT

On 15/09/2020 19:13, wrote:
On Tuesday, 15 September 2020 17:04:38 UTC+1, Keefiedee wrote:
Having moved into a flat, I have an immersion heater which is connected to Economy 7. I want to fit a timer so I can set it just to just come on during the night rate. I have no experience of knowledge of timers - obviously the feed wire needs to be able to be wired into the switch, the switch needs to be able to be screwed to the pattress, and the immersion heater feed needs to be wired to the other side of the timer.

Simple?

So what sort of timer should I buy?

A pin timer or segment timer. Digital electronic timers are less easy to use & less reliable.


NT

Not necessarily. I have a Smiths Timeguard digital immersion
timer. It has 4 on/off periods during the day, but I only use 1.
I've had it for 20 years and it has never gone wrong, but the
label says Made in England.

The Smiths Timeguard 13 amp plug-in digital timer that I run
my fridge from (after the Liebherr thermostat failed one month
after the warranty expired) randomly loses all its settings
unless it is plugged into an ex-BT exchange surge protector,
when it too is relibale. This one is Made in China though.

I've never worked out what is making it lose its settings
when plugged into the ring main directly.

(cheap) Pin timers do not have the ability to switch as the
waveform passes zero, which imposes a limit on the number
of on/off events. Ok for low current devices like bulbs.

On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine on
timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



--
Adam

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 17:16:51 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

There are dual heat storage heaters that have a separate element
connected to the always on supply, with an air thermostat. Useful if it
runs out of stored heat in the evening; hot air comes out immediately.

That's all you can buy now. Since 1.1.2018 they have to comply with the
Lot20 regs.
£600+
Supposedly better insulated, which I doubt is noticeable when used. They
are better controlled, but still expensive to run even on E7.

On Wednesday, 16 September 2020 15:15:11 UTC+1, No Name wrote:
I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine on
timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Does she sleep in the kitchen?

Owain

In article , ARW
writes
On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine
on timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



OK, What *do* you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
--
bert

On Thursday, 17 September 2020 at 20:34:09 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , ARW
writes
On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine
on timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



OK, What *do* you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
--
bert

What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

On 18/09/2020 08:37, Keefiedee wrote:
On Thursday, 17 September 2020 at 20:34:09 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , ARW
writes
On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine
on timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



OK, What *do* you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
--
bert

What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer. (Thames Valley Police used to give them away free for
some reason; I've got two I never use.)

--
Max Demian

In message , Max
Demian writes
On 18/09/2020 08:37, Keefiedee wrote:
On Thursday, 17 September 2020 at 20:34:09 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , ARW
writes
On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine
on timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



OK, What *do* you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
-- bert
What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will
fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use
to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer. (Thames Valley Police used to give them away free for
some reason; I've got two I never use.)

Perhaps so you could switch on some lights and a TV while you are away?


--
Tim Lamb

On Friday, 18 September 2020 at 14:19:33 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Max
Demian writes
On 18/09/2020 08:37, Keefiedee wrote:
On Thursday, 17 September 2020 at 20:34:09 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , ARW
writes
On 16/09/2020 15:15, No Name wrote:

I tried to persuade SWMBO to run the dishwasher and washing machine
on timers from midnight but the noise of the motors ruined her sleep!

Not persuaded her properly then.

What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?



OK, What *do* you say to a woman with 2 black eyes?
-- bert
What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will
fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use
to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer. (Thames Valley Police used to give them away free for
some reason; I've got two I never use.)
Perhaps so you could switch on some lights and a TV while you are away?


--
Tim Lamb

To Max Demian

I knew it would be bloody simple, but I'm not very active in the DIY field any more, and somehow couldn't get my head round it, was making it more complicated than it really was. Thank you.

Max Demian wrote:

Keefiedee wrote:

What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will
fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use
to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer.

Immersion fed via a 13A plug?

Sure a 3kW is the same load as a kettle, but it'll be on for much
longer, plug and socket will get hot I'd imagine ...

On 18/09/2020 14:15, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Max
Demian writes

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a
standard plug-in timer. (Thames Valley Police used to give them away
free for some reason; I've got two I never use.)

Perhaps so you could switch on some lights and a TV while you are away?

Do I leave the curtains open or closed? If closed during the daytime,
the property will appear unoccupied. If open during the night, when the
lights come on potential burglars will be able to see whether there's
anything worth nicking. And has anyone established whether intermittent
lights really do deter burglars?

--
Max Demian

In message , Max
Demian writes
On 18/09/2020 14:15, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Max
Demian writes

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a
standard plug-in timer. (Thames Valley Police used to give them away
free for some reason; I've got two I never use.)
Perhaps so you could switch on some lights and a TV while you are
away?

Do I leave the curtains open or closed? If closed during the daytime,
the property will appear unoccupied. If open during the night, when the
lights come on potential burglars will be able to see whether there's
anything worth nicking. And has anyone established whether intermittent
lights really do deter burglars?

Pass. Curtains open. Hall and landing light on at dusk and off at 11?

Consider unarmed burglar alarms!


--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 15:44:04 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Immersion fed via a 13A plug?

Sure a 3kW is the same load as a kettle, but it'll be on for much
longer, plug and socket will get hot I'd imagine ...

Yep, it's not so much the pins and sockets as the 13 A fuse.

Brand new SWFCU after feeding a 3 kW storage heater for not very
long, days/weeks.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12180205643
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179988825
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179991875

Hager, not some cheap no-name... All storage heaters now only have
20 A DP illuminated switches for connection. Overlaod protection is
the 16A MCB for each heaters 2.5 mm radial.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 18 Sep 2020 at 15:44:04 BST, "Andy Burns" wrote:

Max Demian wrote:

Keefiedee wrote:

What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will
fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use
to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer.

Immersion fed via a 13A plug?

Sure a 3kW is the same load as a kettle, but it'll be on for much
longer, plug and socket will get hot I'd imagine ...

Agreed. And I am not sure a cheap timer will be happy switching a 3kW load
regularly.

--
Roger Hayter

On Friday, 18 September 2020 20:13:07 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 15:44:04 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Immersion fed via a 13A plug?

Sure a 3kW is the same load as a kettle, but it'll be on for much
longer, plug and socket will get hot I'd imagine ...

Yep, it's not so much the pins and sockets as the 13 A fuse.

Brand new SWFCU after feeding a 3 kW storage heater for not very
long, days/weeks.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12180205643
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179988825
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179991875

Hager, not some cheap no-name... All storage heaters now only have
20 A DP illuminated switches for connection. Overlaod protection is
the 16A MCB for each heaters 2.5 mm radial.

Ouch. Is that circuit RCDed? If not the immersion might be conducting through the water, overloading the sfcu.


NT

On Friday, 18 September 2020 20:21:30 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
On 18 Sep 2020 at 15:44:04 BST, "Andy Burns" wrote:

Max Demian wrote:

Keefiedee wrote:

What I really want to know is is there a timer out there which will
fit on the present single pattress AND has an outlet I can easily use
to connect to the wire from the immersion heater.

Can't you fit a 13A socket on the pattress? Then you can fit a standard
plug-in timer.

Immersion fed via a 13A plug?

Sure a 3kW is the same load as a kettle, but it'll be on for much
longer, plug and socket will get hot I'd imagine ...

Agreed. And I am not sure a cheap timer will be happy switching a 3kW load
regularly.

Millions of basic pin timers have been doing just that in immersion systems around the country for decades.

Yes, timers to fit a single pattress are available.


NT

On Sat, 19 Sep 2020 13:19:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Yep, it's not so much the pins and sockets as the 13 A fuse.

Brand new SWFCU after feeding a 3 kW storage heater for not very
long, days/weeks.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12180205643
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179988825
https://www.flickr.com/photos/allsorts-60/12179991875

Hager, not some cheap no-name... All storage heaters now only
have
20 A DP illuminated switches for connection. Overlaod protection
is
the 16A MCB for each heaters 2.5 mm radial.

Ouch. Is that circuit RCDed?

No.

If not the immersion might be conducting through the water, overloading
the sfcu.

Unlikely, this was a feed to a night storage heater. B-)

Posted illustrate that the 13 A fuses that get "warm" when passing 3
kW for a few hours.

--
Cheers
Dave.