So,

I got a chance to go back to the Mobility Scooter we have on approval
from a friend, hopefully for my Mum.

It looks to have been suffering problems with the electric brake since
my mate bought it (second hand, local Mobility shop, no longer there),
but only saw it in the form of reduced range. ;-(

Long short, with brake removed for testing (it mostly provides a
holding function like a parking brake) the range is much much better
and all seemed well apart some hesitating briefly on the last test
trip and then cutting out completely on the same, till I had a wiggle
of the 3 plugs where they joined the speed controller (that also
appears to be mounted incorrectly (not on a slant, as per
manufacturers instructions [1])). ;-(

As we got home with it last test, it cut out again at the footpath
crossover into our property and I'd left it for a couple of days
because of the weather.

I just tried it again and it did the same as it had done pre connector
wiggle and that was it jolted forward a bit then cut out. At least I
had a semi-permanent intermittent fault. ;-)

Trying the connectors and throttle in turn it appeared to be the motor
connector (and that was half expected, considering the failure mode)
and so I disconnected everything, took the controller off and have
opened it up.

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

On Tuesday, 18 August 2020 19:57:16 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
So,

I got a chance to go back to the Mobility Scooter we have on approval
from a friend, hopefully for my Mum.

It looks to have been suffering problems with the electric brake since
my mate bought it (second hand, local Mobility shop, no longer there),
but only saw it in the form of reduced range. ;-(

Long short, with brake removed for testing (it mostly provides a
holding function like a parking brake) the range is much much better
and all seemed well apart some hesitating briefly on the last test
trip and then cutting out completely on the same, till I had a wiggle
of the 3 plugs where they joined the speed controller (that also
appears to be mounted incorrectly (not on a slant, as per
manufacturers instructions [1])). ;-(

As we got home with it last test, it cut out again at the footpath
crossover into our property and I'd left it for a couple of days
because of the weather.

I just tried it again and it did the same as it had done pre connector
wiggle and that was it jolted forward a bit then cut out. At least I
had a semi-permanent intermittent fault. ;-)

Trying the connectors and throttle in turn it appeared to be the motor
connector (and that was half expected, considering the failure mode)
and so I disconnected everything, took the controller off and have
opened it up.

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:41:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 19/08/2020 07:13:40, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:41:49 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)

Using soldered wires on any item subject to vibration is not ideal.

There are some PCB mounted crimp connectors where you can dispense with
a troublesome spade connector.

Just an idea:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-c...ories/3922240/

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:59:44 +0100, Fredxx wrote:

snip

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

snip

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)

Using soldered wires on any item subject to vibration is not ideal.

Agreed, if rigid and unsupported.

There are some PCB mounted crimp connectors where you can dispense with
a troublesome spade connector.

Just an idea:
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pcb-c...ories/3922240/

That is an idea but I'm not sure what actual advantages it would give
over soldering and supporting a short flying lead / 45A Powerpole
plug?

I mean, I get this is 'a vehicle' as such but it's not a rally car,
has inflatable tyres and suspension (of sorts) so as long as any
cables are supported and not allowed to flap about, I can't see
anything failing?

I'm going to de-solder the spades in a while and then I can measure
the holes to see how I might proceed.

I could either solder 3 thinner wires (conductors filling the holes on
the PCB) and joining them together into one flying connector, into 3
individual connectors (powerpoles can interlock into one plug but each
individual can still be passed though the metal case if required) or
using a larger conductor split into three with each soldered though a
different PCB hole (of the original spade pins) and intro one plug
pole of some sort?

I can 3d print a frame to represent the outside of the original plug
(with some slack) and then fill it with hot-melt glue or silicone
once complete and tested. Or 3D print a 3 part 'guide' that goes in
and supports the wires. That way the wires would be supported but I
could still get the ally case off (also the heatsink) if I needed to
get to any other connectors in the future?

Cheers, T i m

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 07:13:42 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:41:49 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I'd have fixed it ages ago.


NT

On 19/08/2020 10:59, Fredxx wrote:
..
Using soldered wires on any item subject to vibration is not ideal.


Does rather depend on how well it is done, though. I'm sure that many of
those here assembled will, in their youth, bought ex-WD stuff in the
local market to disassemble for the useful bits and pieces.

You get very used to the "wrapped round three times before soldering"
spec that WD/MOD had for tag strips, valve bases, etc.

I still keep one set of spanners in a box that used to be labelled
"First Aid Kit, Large, for Armoured Fighting Vehicles".

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)


I'd have fixed it ages ago.

Oh I'm sure you would, then when some poor ******* tries to disconnect
the controller in the future ...

And since when was it 1) 'a race' or 2) have you seen the weather out
there recently (so neither I nor Mum would want to be out in it).

Anyway, I've ordered some AWG16 silicone flex cable and will solder 3
lengths into where each of the spade connectors went for the each of
the motor cables and another pair for the electric brake coil. A bit
of sleeving over the cables and boots on the plugs / sockets and it
should be a flexible, safe, upgraded job I'd be proud to have my
signature on.

Not a 'who the f bodged this up and soldered the plug in ...' ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. When I had the desoldering tool out earlier to do the scooter
controller I also replaced the switch on an Aldi/Lidl charger for a
mate and powered up the 'dead' scooter charger with a strand of copper
wire across the blown fuse to see if it was just the fuse (it wasn't).

T i m wrote:
So,

I got a chance to go back to the Mobility Scooter we have on approval
from a friend, hopefully for my Mum.

It looks to have been suffering problems with the electric brake since
my mate bought it (second hand, local Mobility shop, no longer there),
but only saw it in the form of reduced range. ;-(

Long short, with brake removed for testing (it mostly provides a
holding function like a parking brake) the range is much much better
and all seemed well apart some hesitating briefly on the last test
trip and then cutting out completely on the same, till I had a wiggle
of the 3 plugs where they joined the speed controller (that also
appears to be mounted incorrectly (not on a slant, as per
manufacturers instructions [1])). ;-(

As we got home with it last test, it cut out again at the footpath
crossover into our property and I'd left it for a couple of days
because of the weather.

I just tried it again and it did the same as it had done pre connector
wiggle and that was it jolted forward a bit then cut out. At least I
had a semi-permanent intermittent fault. ;-)

Trying the connectors and throttle in turn it appeared to be the motor
connector (and that was half expected, considering the failure mode)
and so I disconnected everything, took the controller off and have
opened it up.

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.


Solder is not recommended for high current connections. A good crimped or
other mechanical connection beats solder, more so if the solder joint isnt
well made and/or there is vibration.

Id clean the spades, a fibre glass brush is good. If replacing terminals,
use decent ones and a proper crimp tool. (The simple flat plate type dont
count.) While I cant be sure, the photo suggests moisture has got on the
terminals. If there are other signs, find out where that is coming from.

As for Powerpoles, excellent connectors but again, use the right tool.

Solder joints go €˜dry if stressed by temperature cycles and especially if
vibration is added. The temperatures dont need to be anywhere near high
enough to melt solder just hot to touch. You see it in old power supplies.

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 19:53:28 -0000 (UTC), Radio Man
wrote:

snip

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.


Solder is not recommended for high current connections.

Whilst you are probably right (as in 'good advice'), I have been
soldering and running fairly high current (for the size of the
conductor / connector) devices for many many years and I can't think
I've ever had an issue with a soldered only connection failing or
breaking?

A good crimped or
other mechanical connection beats solder, more so if the solder joint isn’t
well made

Ah, well I guess like all things there are things that become problems
because of poor workmanship and / or design / implementation.

and/or there is vibration.

How would you consider the vibration of an RC 4WD electric car that
flattens 7.2V / 3Ah NiMh cells in 5 minutes or so?

I’d clean the spades, a fibre glass brush is good.

If I could find replacement PCB mounted spades and the correct inserts
for the plug and a new plug body, I might consider returning it to
stock ... on the grounds that once they are burned there isn't much
chance of ever getting them back as they were new.

If replacing terminals,
use decent ones and a proper crimp tool. (The simple flat plate type don’t
count.)

What I tend to do is crimp the strands within the connector, then
solder then crimp and sheath support / retaining 'legs' round. If
going into an extreme environment I might also apply some heatshrink
around the conductor and connector to 'support' the joint.

While I can’t be sure, the photo suggests moisture has got on the
terminals.

Whilst not impossible, the speed controller is mounted very high in
the rear of the scooter with a plastic cover that goes down over all 4
sides and all that is under the rear 'boot' of the scooter.

If there are other signs, find out where that is coming from.

I think the 'cause' of the discolouration of the spade connector and
matching burning of the plastic plug body is the faulty parking brake
[1] dragging over many miles and causing long term high currents and
so overheating.

As for Powerpoles, excellent connectors but again, use the right tool.

I do, a soldering iron [2]. ;-)

Solder joints go ‘dry’ if stressed by temperature cycles and especially if
vibration is added.

I can appreciate they can, not something I've ever experienced of my
own soldering. [3]

The temperatures don’t need to be anywhere near high
enough to melt solder just hot to touch. You see it in old power supplies.

It looks like at least one of the PCB spade terminals got hot enough
to soften the solder as the burned one was showing it's pins on the
back of the PCB. By remoting the plug / socket connection and using a
good high current (and gold plated), should it get warm (and I doubt
they would) they can do so away from the controller PCB. All the Model
car / plane / boat speed controllers I have come across are used this
way, with the (very heavy) conductors soldered directly to the speed
controller (and often the motor) and an inline plug / socket on the
battery connections.

Cheers, T i m

[1] A neighbour bought the scooter second hand for his wife from a
local mobility shop (since gone) and 1) paid extra to have it serviced
prior collection and 2) hadn't had one before so didn't know what to
expect from it performance wise. Because he got a very poor range, I
took the batteries and did a bench capacity test on them
(individually) for him and concluded that whilst they weren't up to
new spec, they were 'ok'. He obviously wasn't convinced and I suspect
would have bought a new pair of batteries, had his wife not passed
away. Only since I have had it have I diagnosed the failed parking
brake but some of the 'damage' (overheated connectors) has been done.

[2] I am due to make up some car battery sized cables (for an electric
outboard) and may well crimp them as I have a 'good' crimping tool for
that size. The issue soldering them is simply getting an iron big /
hot enough to be able to make the joint quickly and efficiently enough
(and I prefer to not use a blowlamp).

[3] I was 'BT Trained' but in reality I had been soldering for a long
time before I joined them. Whilst in their training school we had to
solder up a 100 terminal block, each wire initially wrapped between 1
and 1.5 times, nicely flowed solder with no blobs or spikes and no
insulation runbacks. I was the only trainee to get 100% and my test
piece was still in the training room display cabinet when I left 5
years later. ;-)

What is the peak current of the motor if the unit gets stuck? Does it have
an over current cut out? Those can be pesky. I remember a tricicle design a
friend had was doing this until the cut out module was replaced.
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
So,

I got a chance to go back to the Mobility Scooter we have on approval
from a friend, hopefully for my Mum.

It looks to have been suffering problems with the electric brake since
my mate bought it (second hand, local Mobility shop, no longer there),
but only saw it in the form of reduced range. ;-(

Long short, with brake removed for testing (it mostly provides a
holding function like a parking brake) the range is much much better
and all seemed well apart some hesitating briefly on the last test
trip and then cutting out completely on the same, till I had a wiggle
of the 3 plugs where they joined the speed controller (that also
appears to be mounted incorrectly (not on a slant, as per
manufacturers instructions [1])). ;-(

As we got home with it last test, it cut out again at the footpath
crossover into our property and I'd left it for a couple of days
because of the weather.

I just tried it again and it did the same as it had done pre connector
wiggle and that was it jolted forward a bit then cut out. At least I
had a semi-permanent intermittent fault. ;-)

Trying the connectors and throttle in turn it appeared to be the motor
connector (and that was half expected, considering the failure mode)
and so I disconnected everything, took the controller off and have
opened it up.

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:23:16 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)


I'd have fixed it ages ago.

Oh I'm sure you would, then when some poor ******* tries to disconnect
the controller in the future ...

I see you didn't want to complete that sentence.


And since when was it 1) 'a race'

it's usually not, but even a snail gets the job done in 1 day.


or 2) have you seen the weather out
there recently (so neither I nor Mum would want to be out in it).

ditto, we still have things to do though


Not a 'who the f bodged this up and soldered the plug in ...' ;-)

no-one recommended soldering plugs in.


NT

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:23:16 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)


I'd have fixed it ages ago.

Oh I'm sure you would, then when some poor ******* tries to disconnect
the controller in the future ...

I see you didn't want to complete that sentence.

You saw nothing ... it really didn't need finished did it?


And since when was it 1) 'a race'

it's usually not,

And isn't now?

but even a snail gets the job done in 1 day.

Dump those old clockwork clocks and get new ones.


or 2) have you seen the weather out
there recently (so neither I nor Mum would want to be out in it).

ditto, we still have things to do though

This is the 'left brainer' you you mean, not the right brainer me
doing all sorts of others things in the background anyway?


Not a 'who the f bodged this up and soldered the plug in ...' ;-)

no-one recommended soldering plugs in.

So what did you recommend then?

" [1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by
a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

Cummon, fast answer, no time wasting trying to make one up whilst back
peddling ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 20 August 2020 16:56:20 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:23:16 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)


I'd have fixed it ages ago.

Oh I'm sure you would, then when some poor ******* tries to disconnect
the controller in the future ...

I see you didn't want to complete that sentence.

You saw nothing ... it really didn't need finished did it?


And since when was it 1) 'a race'

it's usually not,

And isn't now?

but even a snail gets the job done in 1 day.

Dump those old clockwork clocks and get new ones.


or 2) have you seen the weather out
there recently (so neither I nor Mum would want to be out in it).

ditto, we still have things to do though

This is the 'left brainer' you you mean, not the right brainer me
doing all sorts of others things in the background anyway?


Not a 'who the f bodged this up and soldered the plug in ...' ;-)

no-one recommended soldering plugs in.

So what did you recommend then?

" [1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by
a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

Cummon, fast answer, no time wasting trying to make one up whilst back
peddling ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Why do idiots like you want to waste so much time with so much bs?
Clearly you have failed to find anywhere I suggested soldering a plug: maybe just maybe because I did not suggest that.
Good bye.

On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 at 20:53:31 UTC+1, Radio Man wrote:
T i m wrote:
So,

I got a chance to go back to the Mobility Scooter we have on approval
from a friend, hopefully for my Mum.

It looks to have been suffering problems with the electric brake since
my mate bought it (second hand, local Mobility shop, no longer there),
but only saw it in the form of reduced range. ;-(

Long short, with brake removed for testing (it mostly provides a
holding function like a parking brake) the range is much much better
and all seemed well apart some hesitating briefly on the last test
trip and then cutting out completely on the same, till I had a wiggle
of the 3 plugs where they joined the speed controller (that also
appears to be mounted incorrectly (not on a slant, as per
manufacturers instructions [1])). ;-(

As we got home with it last test, it cut out again at the footpath
crossover into our property and I'd left it for a couple of days
because of the weather.

I just tried it again and it did the same as it had done pre connector
wiggle and that was it jolted forward a bit then cut out. At least I
had a semi-permanent intermittent fault. ;-)

Trying the connectors and throttle in turn it appeared to be the motor
connector (and that was half expected, considering the failure mode)
and so I disconnected everything, took the controller off and have
opened it up.

The issue seems to be at least one of the 6.3 x .8 x 3 prong PCB
mounted spade males has 'burned' and so has the plastic around the
plug on the in-line socket.

https://ibb.co/8MLF6DR

Now, I have looked (but can't find as yet) a replacement spade
terminal (and I'd have to do the same for the flying socket) but I
really don't like spade terminals in such roles. ;-(

These are similar but are two prong and not three.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/spade...ctors/0534834/

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor). I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

The motor is 500W and at 24V that means ~20A so a pair of 30/45A
Powerpoles should able handle it ok?

Or other solutions?

Cheers, T i m

[1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

Solder is not recommended for high current connections. A good crimped or
other mechanical connection beats solder, more so if the solder joint isnt
well made and/or there is vibration.

Id clean the spades, a fibre glass brush is good. If replacing terminals,
use decent ones and a proper crimp tool. (The simple flat plate type dont
count.) While I cant be sure, the photo suggests moisture has got on the
terminals. If there are other signs, find out where that is coming from.

As for Powerpoles, excellent connectors but again, use the right tool.

Solder joints go €˜dry if stressed by temperature cycles and especially if
vibration is added. The temperatures dont need to be anywhere near high
enough to melt solder just hot to touch. You see it in old power supplies..
B

And yet I ran around 200 amps through flexible cables with soldered on lugs in a shore to ship power supply (to drive compressors for pneumatic transfer of starch from ship to shore silos.)

On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 23:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

snip

Solder joints go ‘dry’ if stressed by temperature cycles and especially if
vibration is added. The temperatures don’t need to be anywhere near high
enough to melt solder just hot to touch. You see it in old power supplies.
B

And yet I ran around 200 amps through flexible cables with soldered on lugs in a shore to ship power supply (to drive compressors for pneumatic transfer of starch from ship to shore silos.)

Talking to a mate on this yesterday and he has also solder all such
connections all his life a never had a problem either.

In fact, after suffering an intermittent problem on his car for years,
he was doing some volt tests on a multi-plug connector and a wire just
fell out of it's *crimped* connector.

Even if a connector was crimpable, he like me would crimp it first and
then solder and never had it then fracture / fail.

Now, I'm not suggesting there aren't environments where crimping might
be better, just that I can't think of one in my day to day usage.

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, 20 August 2020 16:56:20 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 07:43:19 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 August 2020 20:23:16 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

'Just solder it' what?

'Soldering' was my suggestion in the form of soldering some suitable
wires in where the spades were and remoting a better connection, so
that I can still disconnect the controller / motor if required?

And I don't call 'doing a good job' 'time wasting'? ;-)


I'd have fixed it ages ago.

Oh I'm sure you would, then when some poor ******* tries to disconnect
the controller in the future ...

I see you didn't want to complete that sentence.

You saw nothing ... it really didn't need finished did it?


And since when was it 1) 'a race'

it's usually not,

And isn't now?

but even a snail gets the job done in 1 day.

Dump those old clockwork clocks and get new ones.


or 2) have you seen the weather out
there recently (so neither I nor Mum would want to be out in it).

ditto, we still have things to do though

This is the 'left brainer' you you mean, not the right brainer me
doing all sorts of others things in the background anyway?


Not a 'who the f bodged this up and soldered the plug in ...' ;-)

no-one recommended soldering plugs in.

So what did you recommend then?

" [1] The bottom of the controller isn't sealed, only protected by
a
fairly loose fitting flush cover and so the gasket round the three
plugs (power, motor and control) is just to stop water running into
the top of the controller. There are slots in the side of the
connector socket recesses to allow any water that may (say) run down
the cables and to the PCB to run out again.

why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting

Cummon, fast answer, no time wasting trying to make one up whilst back
peddling ... ;-)


Why do idiots like you want to waste so much time with so much bs?

Likewise? Finished wasting peoples time here with yer obsolete old
novelty clockwork clocks after admitting you were getting someone who
has a clue in?

Clearly you have failed to find anywhere I suggested soldering a plug:

I haven't looked, I've asked you to state what you were suggesting I
should 'just solder it', given we were talking of the cables and
connectors between the loom(s) and the speed controller at the time?

You can squirm all you like you will only go deeper. That's what
happens when you jump in with both feet and think you could do better
/ faster when you couldn't ... and speed wasn't the issue.

maybe just maybe because I did not suggest that.

So what is there left to solder that would leave the controller tied
to the main loom or motor? Cummon, you know all the answers so this
should be easy for you?

Good bye.

Aww, he has shot himself in the foot again and is now hopping away.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I really think a minority here have some sort of bi-polar
disorder, fine one minute and then fly off the handle then next. ;-(

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 23:37:13 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

snip

Solder joints go 'dry if stressed by temperature cycles and
especially if vibration is added. The temperatures dont need to be
anywhere near high enough to melt solder just hot to touch. You see
it in old power supplies.
B

And yet I ran around 200 amps through flexible cables with soldered on lugs in a shore to ship power supply (to drive compressors for pneumatic transfer of starch from ship to shore silos.)

Talking to a mate on this yesterday and he has also solder all such
connections all his life a never had a problem either.

In fact, after suffering an intermittent problem on his car for years,
he was doing some volt tests on a multi-plug connector and a wire just
fell out of it's *crimped* connector.

Even if a connector was crimpable, he like me would crimp it first and
then solder and never had it then fracture / fail.

Now, I'm not suggesting there aren't environments where crimping might
be better, just that I can't think of one in my day to day usage.

As a student, I worked with various parts of the SESEB. All underground
joints were soldered.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:39:48 +0100, charles
wrote:

snip

Even if a connector was crimpable, he like me would crimp it first and
then solder and never had it then fracture / fail.

Now, I'm not suggesting there aren't environments where crimping might
be better, just that I can't think of one in my day to day usage.

As a student, I worked with various parts of the SESEB. All underground
joints were soldered.

Interesting, ta. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Saturday, 22 August 2020 10:49:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

Why do idiots like you want to waste so much time with so much bs?

Likewise? Finished wasting peoples time here with yer obsolete old
novelty clockwork clocks after admitting you were getting someone who
has a clue in?

So you're making up yet more bs.

Your inability to solve such a simple connection in minutes is too pathetic for me.

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:30:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, 22 August 2020 10:49:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

Why do idiots like you want to waste so much time with so much bs?

Likewise? Finished wasting peoples time here with yer obsolete old
novelty clockwork clocks after admitting you were getting someone who
has a clue in?

So you're making up yet more bs.

And you are still weaseling around not stating what your 'advice' was
specifically suggesting.

Your inability to solve such a simple connection in minutes is too pathetic for me.

Bwhahaha ... like everything else that's beyond you, like some
clockwork apparently! ;-)

But hey, you have shot yourself in the foot and are now limping round
in circles ... till you explain exactly what your:

"why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting" was actually
referring to?

Or maybe you didn't have any more of a clue of the scenario then than
you do now?

As for the 'time wasting', the weather is still sufficiently
unpredictable as to not want me to have Mum out on the scooter miles
away from anywhere and I'm still waiting for the cable to turn up. Is
that an issue for anyone other than you, thinking everything has to be
in a rush because your left brain view of the world means that's the
only way you can do things, even if it means bodging it? ;-(

So, again, speak up or STFU (as there is nothing *you* could add or
assist with that I couldn't have done myself on day one, had I wanted
to (bodge it).

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:17:25 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

What is the peak current of the motor if the unit gets stuck?

It's all a bit of a mixed set of number in general Brian. The motor
plate states '6.5A max' but is rated at 500W at 24V (21A?)? The
controller is rated at 110A (at 24V) and would have a typical /
continuous motor output of 43A with a peak of 110A. The programming in
the controllers suggests a 20A continuous current.

Does it have
an over current cut out?

It has an over current switch (50-75A, according to the manual) and a
straight fuse, over and above what the controller might do.

Those can be pesky.

The controller is fully programmable with half of the 80 page manual
dedicated to that. The max / boost current seem to be programmable
with no stated value but the continuous motor current is stated as
defaulting to 20A.

I remember a tricicle design a
friend had was doing this until the cut out module was replaced.

In this case it definitely the crappy PCB mounted spade terminal as
when it cutout, wiggling that connector (motor / parking brake) got it
going again. It had become burned from the continuous running with a
dragging parking brake (mostly unwittingly by the PO it seems as he
used it like that on multiple runs, even taking it to the shop to have
it checked and them not picking up on the fault).

Still, I'm going to replace the two spades for a decent flying plug /
socket (that will pass though the hole in the case / heatsink) that
have a 90A rating, rather than the 35A supposedly provided by the std
connector pin insert (AMP 556880-2).

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 23 August 2020 10:22:41 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:30:57 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 22 August 2020 10:49:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:37:12 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

Why do idiots like you want to waste so much time with so much bs?

Likewise? Finished wasting peoples time here with yer obsolete old
novelty clockwork clocks after admitting you were getting someone who
has a clue in?

So you're making up yet more bs.

And you are still weaseling around not stating what your 'advice' was
specifically suggesting.

Your inability to solve such a simple connection in minutes is too pathetic for me.

Bwhahaha ... like everything else that's beyond you, like some
clockwork apparently! ;-)

But hey, you have shot yourself in the foot and are now limping round
in circles ... till you explain exactly what your:

"why not just solder it? Saves a lot of time wasting" was actually
referring to?

Or maybe you didn't have any more of a clue of the scenario then than
you do now?

As for the 'time wasting', the weather is still sufficiently
unpredictable as to not want me to have Mum out on the scooter miles
away from anywhere and I'm still waiting for the cable to turn up. Is
that an issue for anyone other than you, thinking everything has to be
in a rush because your left brain view of the world means that's the
only way you can do things, even if it means bodging it? ;-(

So, again, speak up or STFU (as there is nothing *you* could add or
assist with that I couldn't have done myself on day one, had I wanted
to (bodge it).

Cheers, T i m

don't think I've ever seen you be this stupid before.
And which part of I haven't asked about any clockwork did you not understand.
Don't bother answering.

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

snip

So, again, speak up or STFU (as there is nothing *you* could add or
assist with that I couldn't have done myself on day one, had I wanted
to (bodge it).


don't think I've ever seen you be this stupid before.

That's a nice mirror you have there. If it wasn't you would be all to
keen to *explain* what you meant.

And which part of I haven't asked about any clockwork did you not understand.

The bit about how the length of a pendulum affects the timekeeping ...
you know, that bit (for starters, you are *such* a weasel).

Don't bother answering.

Why not, still not got an answer (of course you haven't)?

Cheers, T i m

On Monday, 24 August 2020 10:33:45 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

And which part of I haven't asked about any clockwork did you not understand.

The bit about how the length of a pendulum affects the timekeeping ...

I have no clue what you're talking about. It seems clear you haven't either.
I won't waste time on the rest.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 13:11:32 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, 24 August 2020 10:33:45 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 17:47:26 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

And which part of I haven't asked about any clockwork did you not understand.

The bit about how the length of a pendulum affects the timekeeping ...

I have no clue what you're talking about.

You would if you read other threads here.

It seems clear you haven't either.

Don't worry, wrong (innocent) person.

I won't waste time on the rest.

Which of course is the actual point.

So, 'just solder it' you said, should be so very easy to explain
'what' you would solder, *if* you had a clue of course.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:59:36 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 19/08/2020 10:59, Fredxx wrote:
.
Using soldered wires on any item subject to vibration is not ideal.


Does rather depend on how well it is done, though.

Quite.

I'm sure that many of
those here assembled will, in their youth, bought ex-WD stuff in the
local market to disassemble for the useful bits and pieces.

Yup, and BT kit (for a job). ;-)

You get very used to the "wrapped round three times before soldering"
spec that WD/MOD had for tag strips, valve bases, etc.

In BT it was 1 to 1.5 times for a joint to be then soldered (as
opposed to a straight 'wrapped' joint).

I still keep one set of spanners in a box that used to be labelled
"First Aid Kit, Large, for Armoured Fighting Vehicles".

;-)

I was playing with another Mobility Scooter on Sunday. It was my Dads,
'second' and we sold it to a neighbour when Mum finally got rid of the
static caravan they had.

He had an issue with stuck brushes (I sorted for him) and then it 'cut
out' and he bought a bigger one (for his Mrs) that is the reason
behind this thread.

I offered to look at it for him but he wasn't particularly bothered
when but it got into our back garden under a cover and sat there ever
since saying that if I couldn't sort it I could dump it. He'd kept the
batteries and charger and that made it sorta difficult to easily check
out.

The other day I'd got everything together, batteries (bought by me to
test the scooter but nicked by daughter for the electric fence on her
rabbit hutch) a new Optimate 12/24V charger, the key and a dry spell.
;-)

As soon as I connected the batteries I noticed just one of the battery
gauge LEDS on but not like a fault indicator. I disconnected the
battery and pulled all the electronics and wiring to just make sure
nothing was lose or broken and it looked ok so I just re-assembled it
again.

As I re-fitted a multi pole-connector to one of the PCB's, I noted one
of the pins fell out the back of the plug ... re-fitting it correctly
in the plug shell made the light go off and everything seemed to work
ok? ;-)

Yesterday we gave it a 3.5m test / dog walk and it was fine.

It had only dropped to 2 of the 4 battery bars (indicating still above
50% charge) but when I put them on the Optimate it suggested they were
very low.

Reading the instructions for the Curtis controller it seems you can
calibrate the battery meter by charging the batteries from low whilst
on the scooter and with the 'ignition' switch on, allowing it to
monitor the charge process and hence determine the capacity.

I've ordered a couple of small / waterproof panel voltmeters that I
might fit in a box or onto the scooter directly that can show the
terminal voltage on each battery, [1] that way I can get a better idea
of what level of charge we are actually at (till it's calibrated
especially).

I like playing with electric vehicles. ;-) [2]

Cheers, T i m

[1] When I designed, built and raced and 'electric motorcycle' (more
endurance than speed etc) I used a general purpose voltmeter to
display (via a couple of toggle switches), B1V, B2V, B1+B2V, Current
(voltage drop over the longest battery conductor) and speed in mph
(voltage out of a F to V converter from a magnetic inductance sensor
running over a final drive gear teeth).

[2] Watching with interest the recent push on legislation on PLEVs for
lower Covid (if nothing else) transport risk. A mate had sold a few
Reid E4 scooters and they look quite well designed. I also like how
they show you how to replace everything suggesting all the parts would
be available for d-i-y replacement (should you need and in contrast
with the Mobility scooter market).

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 19:57:14 +0100, T i m wrote:

snip

So, I was thinking of de-soldering the spades and finding some
suitable stranded / silicone flex

(16AWG as it happens)

that will fill each of the prong
holes on the PCB and bring each wire out of the controller 200mm or so
and into 2 off XT150 connectors ...(and on the motor).

I went for XT90's as they better matched the existing cabling and I
already have some.

I can do
similar on the other pair of spades to a smaller connector as they are
only 24V / 1.5A to feed said electric brake.

I used XT60's on them as they are very good connectors, are very snug
and I had some of them as well. ;-)

I can then cut the rubber gasket around the wires and then run some
hot melt glue or silicone to support the wires where they exit the PCB
(and then with a cable tie to the chassis). [1]

Yup, worked out as hoped. I actually 3D printed a little frame to line
the hole in the case / heatsink so that the hot-melt-glue didn't stick
to that, in case I ever wanted to get the PCB out again.

One oddity though. Looking at the wiring diagram for the Rhino
controller shows the polarity for the motor connectors as being round
one way but the motor was wired to the (slightly melted) plug with the
red / black the other way round. I applied 12V to the motor following
the colours (red being +ve) and the wheels ran forwards? So it looks
like the motor connector was wired the wrong way round and the
function reversed in the controller or the wigwag controller?

The same applied to the connector for the electric brake (+Ve with red
wire) but the wires coming off the brake itself are both black. Would
it make any difference which way round the solenoid coil was connected
as the (electro) magnetism should work either way round (attracting
the plate to release the spring pressure on the brake)?

Anyway, earlier we did nearly 7 miles walking the dog and the Mrs on
the scooter and we had only lost one (of 8) bars from the battery
meter by our return. ;-)

I'm going to replace all the spade connectors on the battery leads
with XT90's because 1) I think there are likely to be less lossy and
more reliable and 2) I already have other gear (inc the Wattmeter)
equipped with XT90 connectors so it makes sense.

Cheers, T i m