I have an idea to mount the stairs switches sideways.

Because having a switch up usually means its off,
but this is not so with 2 way stairs lights etc.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching

I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,
this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

What does the panel think, for and against?

George

On 12/08/2020 21:50, George Miles wrote:
I have an idea to mount the stairs switches sideways.

Because having a switch up usually means its off,
but this is not so with 2 way stairs lights etc.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching

I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,
this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

What does the panel think, for and against?

Japs do that but it's something to do with earthquakes I think.

--
Max Demian

On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:50:06 UTC+1, George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

That's their silly fault then.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,

If yu mount them properly, yes. Some people don't bother.

this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

Or learn how to change bulbs without sticking fingers into the shiny sparky bits of the luminaire.

Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".

Owain

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:50:06 UTC+1, George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

That's their silly fault then.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,

If yu mount them properly, yes. Some people don't bother.

this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

Or learn how to change bulbs without sticking fingers into the shiny
sparky bits of the luminaire.

Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".

So are the switches in MCBs not double-pole? What about the switch in an
RCD - is that double-pole?

I prefer to play it safe. A couple of years ago I got a mains shock
(thankfully the RCD tripped) because I made an embarrassingly stupid
mistake. I was replacing old GU10 sockets with ones that looked better. We
had Philips Hue bulbs in the GU10 fittings. Seeing that the bulbs were not
lit, I thought that the power was off - at least at the wall switch. For all
the other fittings I'd switched off the wall switch and gone downstairs to
turn off the lighting MCB (*), and after doing about 10 of the fittings, I
must have been getting tired. I'd forgotten the important thing: Philips Hue
bulbs can be turned off internally (remotely controlled by Android app or
Alexa) even when there is power to the fitting. It was only a shock through
one hand, not across my chest, otherwise I probably wouldn't be here, given
that after having a heart attack about 10 years ago my heart is possibly
more sensitive than other people's to electric shocks.

I did a similar thing when I was in my teens. I was repairing an old
mains-powered reel-to-reel tape recorder. I turned it off at the appliance
switch, but stupidly left the mains lead plugged in. The appliance itself
was totally safe - but I got a shock from the live pin on the mains switch,
where the power lead was soldered to it. Luckily my only injury was a nasty
stab-and-gash wound on my finger from a sharp bit of solder on the switch
terminal as I yanked my hand away. It took several days for the tingling in
my arm to go away. Forty five years later I've still got two little lumps
either side of the joint on my index finger where it touched the live
terminal and the chassis which was either at neutral or earth potential.


(*) You can never be too careful. When I'm cleaning out the garden shredder,
after shredded waste has got clogged up on the output side of the rotating
blade, I always pull the plug out of the extension cable. I know the
appliance is turned off at its switch, and I know there is a safety
interlock that will not let it turn on if the waste bin is removed. but I'm
taking no chances: if I can't see the plug is not plugged into the power, I
won't go near the dangerous bits.

On Thursday, 13 August 2020 17:16:14 UTC+1, NY wrote:
Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".
So are the switches in MCBs not double-pole? What about the switch in an
RCD - is that double-pole?

MCBs are single-pole
RCDs are double-pole
RCBOs may be either

*usually*


I did a similar thing when I was in my teens. I was repairing an old
mains-powered reel-to-reel tape recorder. I turned it off at the appliance
switch, but stupidly left the mains lead plugged in.

I did better than that. I was listening to a valve radio while I was soldering new capacitors into it!!!

Owain

NY wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:50:06 UTC+1, George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

That's their silly fault then.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,

If yu mount them properly, yes. Some people don't bother.

this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

Or learn how to change bulbs without sticking fingers into the shiny
sparky bits of the luminaire.

Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".

So are the switches in MCBs not double-pole? What about the switch in an
RCD - is that double-pole?

No to both usually, MCBs and RCBOs are single pole. Some RCD main
switches are double pole.

--
Chris Green
·

On 13/08/2020 19:13, Chris Green wrote:
NY wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:50:06 UTC+1, George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

That's their silly fault then.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,

If yu mount them properly, yes. Some people don't bother.

this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

Or learn how to change bulbs without sticking fingers into the shiny
sparky bits of the luminaire.

Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".

So are the switches in MCBs not double-pole? What about the switch in an
RCD - is that double-pole?

No to both usually, MCBs and RCBOs are single pole. Some RCD main
switches are double pole.



All RCD main switches must be double pole switched.

--
Adam

On 12/08/2020 21:50, George Miles wrote:
I have an idea to mount the stairs switches sideways.

Because having a switch up usually means its off,
but this is not so with 2 way stairs lights etc.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching

I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,
this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

What does the panel think, for and against?



I honestly believe you making it up.


--
Adam

On 13/08/2020 16:19, wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:50:06 UTC+1, George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

That's their silly fault then.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,

If yu mount them properly, yes. Some people don't bother.

this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

Or learn how to change bulbs without sticking fingers into the shiny sparky bits of the luminaire.

Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".


It's acceptable for a TN supply:-)


--
Adam

George Miles wrote:

I have an idea to mount the stairs switches sideways.

Because having a switch up usually means its off,
but this is not so with 2 way stairs lights etc.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching

I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.

But then again if all the switches are off it should be off,
this is not possible if they are mounted sideways , left/right,
so someone changing the bulb would have to turn off the MCB.

What does the panel think, for and against?

George

I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
George Miles wrote:
I thought of someone changing the bulb thinking it was off,
because the nearest switch was up.


They'd have to be super stupid not to have noticed they can be either way
on a two or more way switched circuit.
So best to get a man in to change the bulb?

--
*Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the 'off'
position, how can it change?

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the 'off'
position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell which is
ON and which is OFF

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:05:18 +0100, charles wrote:

I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a
particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with
three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the
'off'
position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell which
is ON and which is OFF

Don't think you can wire two two way switches such that the "Off"
position is always "Off" for a given switch *and* either can *always*
control the state of the load.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The clue is in the name.
It got very complicated here when I put in a delay switch to turn on the
landing lights at intervals on a switch in with the two way one I already
had. Even I forget which is which.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the 'off'
position, how can it change?

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the 'off'
position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell which is
ON and which is OFF

Then how to you tell if a one way is off - if the bulb has blown?

--
*Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:05:18 +0100, charles wrote:

I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a
particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with
three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the
'off'
position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell which
is ON and which is OFF

Don't think you can wire two two way switches such that the "Off"
position is always "Off" for a given switch *and* either can *always*
control the state of the load.

Of course you can. Assuming a switch you can see is 'up' or down'. Even
with a dozen switches on the same circuit. If the light is off with all
the switches in the off postion, then nothing can change that.

--
*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:56:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a
particular way so you knew when they were off, because this
does not
work with three (or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the
'off' position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell
which
is ON and which is OFF

Don't think you can wire two two way switches such that the "Off"
position is always "Off" for a given switch *and* either can
*always*
control the state of the load.

Of course you can.

Diagram? To fulfill:

Any switch can be operated at any time.
An operation meaning moving from the switch from the postion
indicating
"off" to that indicating "on" or vice versa.

Any switch must always toggle the state of the load.
ie on off or off on.

Any switches position must always indicate the true state of the
load.

Manual switches only, no use of relays or other similar devices. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:56:41 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a
particular way so you knew when they were off, because this
does not
work with three (or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the
'off' position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell
which
is ON and which is OFF

Don't think you can wire two two way switches such that the "Off"
position is always "Off" for a given switch *and* either can
*always*
control the state of the load.

Of course you can.

Diagram? To fulfill:

Any switch can be operated at any time.
An operation meaning moving from the switch from the postion
indicating
"off" to that indicating "on" or vice versa.

Any switch must always toggle the state of the load.
ie on off or off on.

Any switches position must always indicate the true state of the
load.

But he did not say that. He said only that they can be wired so that
if all switches are up the load will be off. And, on reflection, I am
sure he is right. The ambiguity I claimed for 2 switch systems
resides only in not knowing for certain how many swiitches there are.
But it is still a dangerous ambiiguity; if you assume for instance that
there are three and there are more than three you may be misled.




Manual switches only, no use of relays or other similar devices. B-)


--

Roger Hayter

On 13/08/2020 17:20, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 August 2020 17:16:14 UTC+1, NY wrote:
Turning off the MCB doesn't disconnect the neutral, so isn't "isolation".
So are the switches in MCBs not double-pole? What about the switch in an
RCD - is that double-pole?

MCBs are single-pole
RCDs are double-pole
RCBOs may be either

*usually*


Extractor fan isolator switches ????


I did a similar thing when I was in my teens. I was repairing an old
mains-powered reel-to-reel tape recorder. I turned it off at the appliance
switch, but stupidly left the mains lead plugged in.

I did better than that. I was listening to a valve radio while I was soldering new capacitors into it!!!

Owain

On 16/08/2020 12:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
I would deliberately avoid wiring two way switches in a particular way
so you knew when they were off, because this does not work with three
(or more) way switches.

Why? If the circuit is off with *all* the switches in it in the 'off'
position, how can it change?

because with two way and an intermediate switch nobody can tell which is
ON and which is OFF

Then how to you tell if a one way is off - if the bulb has blown?

I wonder why they don't have a switch that you just push to change its
state (like the push on push off switches some table lamps have, but
doing the changeover), so they would never be "wrong". Each switch could
have a neon indicator to indicate that the load is (or should be) on,
but this would need extra wiring.

--
Max Demian

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
But he did not say that. He said only that they can be wired so that
if all switches are up the load will be off. And, on reflection, I am
sure he is right. The ambiguity I claimed for 2 switch systems
resides only in not knowing for certain how many swiitches there are.
But it is still a dangerous ambiiguity; if you assume for instance that
there are three and there are more than three you may be misled.

I know I'm right because that's how I've always done it. All switches on
that circuit in the off postition, and the light is off.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.