Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

[george]

On 15/12/2019 16:47, George Miles wrote:
Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nners#Lighting


--
Adam

thanksm
someone please add this link to
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting


[g]

On Sunday, December 15, 2019 at 4:54:45 PM UTC, ARW wrote:
On 15/12/2019 16:47, George Miles wrote:
Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...nners#Lighting


--
Adam

On 15/12/2019 18:34, George Miles wrote:
thanksm
someone please add this link to
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

ok added.

(has to be said, the "More topics" section of the lighting article are
pretty much content free lists of stuff, and would probably be better in
the Talk page rather than the article itself)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

George Miles wrote:

Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

3) single and earth

where you feed a neutral round the light fittings, and a live around the
switches, plus switched lives between switches light fittings; councils
do/did like this method apparently.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/House_Wiring_for_Beginners#Single_&_Earth

On 15/12/2019 16:58, Andy Burns wrote:
George Miles wrote:

Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue
masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

3) single and earth

where you feed a neutral round the light fittings, and a live around the
switches, plus switched lives between switches light fittings; councils
do/did like this method apparently.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/House_Wiring_for_Beginners#Single_&_Earth


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's time
he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core strapper
for 2 way switching).

TBH in such a house it would have used less cable to have looped in at
the switches upstairs as the landing and two bedroom switches were so
close to each other.



--
Adam

On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's time
he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core strapper
for 2 way switching).


I wonder if that's health and safety driven. IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings
'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things
- people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the
switch off.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/12/2019 17:22, Robin wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's
time he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core
strapper for 2 way switching).


I wonder if that's health and safety driven.Â* IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings
'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things
- people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the
switch off.


I think that it's because people seldom fit white plastic pendants these
days and it's a lot easier with just one T&E (or two if there are
multiple lights on that switch) at the light fitting.

The OP is correct that it makes the wiring simple to follow if debugging
so that helps out the apprentices. However you do need to watch the back
box depth due to the number of cables on multi gang switches especially
if they are 2 wayed.




Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g
light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched)
plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three
core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.

Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to modify the above 3g/2g
light switch setup using clear thinking and a bit of electrical
knowledge to have a more balanced number of cables at each switch.


This is a real set up on some newbuilds I did. You walked into the
lounge/diner and there was a 2g light switch for the lounge and kitchen
lights at the living room end. At the kitchen end there was a 3g light
switch for the lounge, kitchen and under cupboard lights.

--
Adam

Looping in at the switch probably suited wiring with singles. The current trend using T&E means a lot of cables in the back box. My daughter in her new build has loop in at the switches one in particular in her kitchen/diner is a 2g with one switch 2 way and the box is absolutely rammed.

Richard

ARW wrote:

On 15/12/2019 17:22, Robin wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's
time he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core
strapper for 2 way switching).


I wonder if that's health and safety driven. IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings
'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things
- people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the
switch off.


I think that it's because people seldom fit white plastic pendants these
days and it's a lot easier with just one T&E (or two if there are
multiple lights on that switch) at the light fitting.

The OP is correct that it makes the wiring simple to follow if debugging
so that helps out the apprentices. However you do need to watch the back
box depth due to the number of cables on multi gang switches especially
if they are 2 wayed.




Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g
light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched)
plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three
core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.

Coincidentally I have precisely such a switch (surface mounted), an
additional complication being that there are two separate circuits,
and replacing it required (AFAIAC) a 33mm backbox, untidy as it might
be.



Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to modify the above 3g/2g
light switch setup using clear thinking and a bit of electrical
knowledge to have a more balanced number of cables at each switch.

Rewiring was not an option.



This is a real set up on some newbuilds I did. You walked into the
lounge/diner and there was a 2g light switch for the lounge and kitchen
lights at the living room end. At the kitchen end there was a 3g light
switch for the lounge, kitchen and under cupboard lights.

--
Adam


--

Roger Hayter

On 15/12/2019 18:14, ARW wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:22, Robin wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's
time he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core
strapper for 2 way switching).


I wonder if that's health and safety driven.Â* IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling
fittings 'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do
such things - people might change a fitting thinking that it's all
safe with the switch off.


I think that it's because people seldom fit white plastic pendants these
days and it's a lot easier with just one T&E (or two if there are
multiple lights on that switch) at the light fitting.

That's one reason I've been fitting Ashley JB's behind dry-lining boxes
here as and when I've rewired/replaced ceiling fittings. But that still
involves working at height which I guess might be another H&S argument
against loop in at lights.

The OP is correct that it makes the wiring simple to follow if debugging
so that helps out the apprentices. However you do need to watch the back
box depth due to the number of cables on multi gang switches especially
if they are 2 wayed.




Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g
light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched)
plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three
core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.

Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to modify the above 3g/2g
light switch setup using clear thinking and a bit of electrical
knowledge to have a more balanced number of cables at each switch.

I'll get back to you on that when I'm more sober, though that may not be
for quite some time: having given up tobacco 20 years ago "3 pipe
problems" have taken on a whole new c.500 litre dimension!

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/12/2019 18:14, ARW wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:22, Robin wrote:
On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented
2nd year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's
time he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the
switches seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core
strapper for 2 way switching).


I wonder if that's health and safety driven.Â* IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling
fittings 'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do
such things - people might change a fitting thinking that it's all
safe with the switch off.


I think that it's because people seldom fit white plastic pendants these
days and it's a lot easier with just one T&E (or two if there are
multiple lights on that switch) at the light fitting.

The OP is correct that it makes the wiring simple to follow if debugging
so that helps out the apprentices. However you do need to watch the back
box depth due to the number of cables on multi gang switches especially
if they are 2 wayed.




Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g
light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched)
plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three
core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.

My parents' house wasn't that bad, but it did have live and neutral
looped through each ceiling rose, with the switches connected there too
and all in rubber sheathed singles, so touching anything caused the
insulation to disintegrate.

I planned ahead for future decorating/changes of light fitting, so all
my looping through, drops to switches and to lights is done in junction
boxes and just a single T&E goes to each light fitting.

I do have two 4g light switches in the living room, with all four ways
double switched - it's a bit busy in the backboxes, even with the
minimum number of cores.

SteveW

On 15/12/2019 18:14, ARW wrote:
snip


Imagine a 3g light switch where two of the ways are two wayed to a 2g
light switch. You could end up with 5 T&E (two perm LNE and 3 switched)
plus 2 three core and earth cables in a single back box and just 2 three
core and earths in the other light switch if you are not careful.

Your task, should you wish to accept it, is to modify the above 3g/2g
light switch setup using clear thinking and a bit of electrical
knowledge to have a more balanced number of cables at each switch.


As expected it was a suicide mission. (If Id ever had a Star Trek
uniform it would have been "The Red Shirt security guy".)

I could reduce the number of Twin & Earths by one by making the 3-gang
the end of the radial. But thats a bodger as it presumably uses more
cable.

I could (I think) move the 2 Twin & Earths which feed the lounge and
kitchen light fittings from the 3-gang to the 2-gang if I run a single
for the neutral alongside the 2 3-core & Earths. But thats a bodger as
again it presumably uses more cable. (Hope provision of a neutral at
the 2-gang would count for something though €“ eg apprentice allowed to
walk home /with/ trousers.)

This poster will self-destruct within a few years €“ probably.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 15/12/2019 17:15, ARW wrote:


I did a landlords 2 bed rewire last year and I was given the talented 2nd
year apprentice to work with.

My instructions were "teach him how to loop in at the lights, it's time
he knew". Nothing other than running T&E with the neutral to the switches
seems to be taught or used these days (plus the 3 core strapper for 2 way
switching).

I wonder if that's health and safety driven. IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings

Thats bull****, they dont.

'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things
people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the switch
off.

The wiring rules dont work like that.

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 12:50:43 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


I wonder if that's health and safety driven. IIRC I was told in Oz in
2010 they deprecate (if not ban) permanent lives at the ceiling fittings

That¢s bull****, they don¢t.

'cos - even though the citizenry there aren't supposed to do such things
people might change a fitting thinking that it's all safe with the switch
off.

The wiring rules don¢t work like that.

He didn't say it does, you auto-contradicting senile mental case!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On 15/12/2019 16:47, George Miles wrote:
Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

[george]


It is there in brief at least. Go to

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Loop-in_Wiring

Then scroll down to the heading "Other Wiring Options" - or just search
on the page for "Switch loop through".

I don't know if it's covered in more detail. But then loop at the light
was first explained to me on the lines of "you know how to do loop at
the light, and you know how to do things arse upwards, so ..."



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
George Miles wrote:
Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

[george]

Taking power to the switch is generally much more wasteful of cable, as
you generally don't need a neutral there. The exception may be when
running table light circuits.

--
*Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/12/2019 16:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
George Miles wrote:
Methinks there are 2 ways of wiring lights-
1) power to the light fittings, and a wire to the switch with blue masked with brown
2) power to the switches, then wires to the light fittings.

I'm doing way 2 as I have lots of switches going to individual light fittings,
and i think its simpler and clearer,
easier to debug,
and blues are always neutrals.

But I cant find anything about this in the DIY Wiki
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Lighting

[george]

Taking power to the switch is generally much more wasteful of cable, as
you generally don't need a neutral there. The exception may be when
running table light circuits.


You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace
upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light
switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed
coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass. The
small front bedroom light switch is usually only a doors width away from
these switches and so uses less cable to go to the switch and then up to
the light than to the light and back down to the switch. That just
leaves the bathroom. Well you can save even more cable by feeding that
from the light switch in the bedroom closest to it.

In new builds, especially big ones it wastes loads of cable.

--
Adam

In article ,
ARW wrote:
You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace
upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light
switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed
coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass.

Ah. I generally have the landing lights on a different circuit to the
bedroom ones.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/12/2019 11:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace
upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light
switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed
coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass.

Ah. I generally have the landing lights on a different circuit to the
bedroom ones.


That would not actually make any difference to the amount of cable IF
the landing lights were wired in the way Robin worked out in the task I
set him.



--
Adam

On 17/12/2019 11:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace
upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light
switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed
coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass.

Ah. I generally have the landing lights on a different circuit to the
bedroom ones.

In ours the hall, stairs and landing lights are on the upstairs circuit
- very useful if you come in in the early hours of the morning, switch
the hall light on and the bulb blows, taking out the breaker as well ...
opening the kitchen or living room door and switching that light on
gives enough illumination to find and disarm the alarm before the whole
street is woken up!

SteveW

On 17/12/2019 18:53, Steve Walker wrote:
On 17/12/2019 11:29, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* ARW wrote:
You would normally save cable in your typical (Yorkshire?) 3 bed terrace
upstairs circuit. Normally the landing and 2 of the bedrooms have light
switches that are so close together that you can just have one feed
coming up from the CU and nail all three as with a single pass.

Ah. I generally have the landing lights on a different circuit to the
bedroom ones.

In ours the hall, stairs and landing lights are on the upstairs circuit
- very useful if you come in in the early hours of the morning, switch
the hall light on and the bulb blows, taking out the breaker as well ...
opening the kitchen or living room door and switching that light on
gives enough illumination to find and disarm the alarm before the whole
street is woken up!


Are you still using incandescent lamps?

I have seen CFLs take out a MCB when they fail (only twice) but so far I
have not seen an LED do that.


--
Adam