Hi All

I am fitting a new bathroom sink. I usually do this by fitting an isolation valve (one where you turn it on / off with a flat head screwdriver) between the incoming supply (terminated with a tap connector) and the flexible hose to the tap.

I am having trouble with one that constantly leaks no matter what I do. The tap connector side is fine but the connection with the flexible hose leaks. I have so far tried the following
1. The tap and hose came with a filter type rubber washer so used that first
2. Tried replacing that washer with a normal flat rubber washer
3. Put PTFE tape on the thread and used the washer.

All options still result in a leak. It looks like it is coming from the centre of the nut (as opposed to the thread) but can't be sure.

Anyone have any ideas what could be wrong?

Thanks

Lee

I cannot quite picture your arrangement but if you are connecting your flexible tap connector directly on to the isolator valve then I am not surprised you are experiencing leakage problems. The isolator has connections that involve the use of an olive to provide the water tight seal the end of the thread has a chamfer on the inside to mate with an olive whilst the very end does not have a flat surface to mate with anything tending to be rather sharp too.

What I suspect you need is something like these:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/tesla-bra...x-2-pack/2665r

The plain end goes in your compression fitting on the isolator with an olive off course and your tap connector on the threaded end with the rubber washer you mentioned initially.

A link to a photo of what you have got would help

Richard

Sorry Richard should have mentioned that I file the ends of the isolation valve flat before fitting. Wonder if this one I didn't do it enough. Will take a look at your fitting sounds like it is just the job although I hate compression fittings as mine take several attempts before they are sealed

Lee Nowell wrote:

Sorry Richard should have mentioned that I file the ends of the isolation valve flat before fitting.

You can get combined flexible tab connector with isolator ...

On 09/11/2019 15:37, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I cannot quite picture your arrangement but if you are connecting
your flexible tap connector directly on to the isolator valve then I
am not surprised you are experiencing leakage problems. The isolator
has connections that involve the use of an olive to provide the water
tight seal the end of the thread has a chamfer on the inside to mate
with an olive whilst the very end does not have a flat surface to
mate with anything tending to be rather sharp too.

Conversely I always use a normal full bore service valve with the
backnut and olive removed to mate with the flexi connector, and have
never had a leak. So long as the end of the valve is smooth and
continuous, then it should seal against the flat washer. A narrower
cross section just means it will seal with less torque.

I think in the OPs case I would replace the flexi.


--
Cheers,

John.

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Yes also some of those flex things seem to have very deformable ends so when
one does it up it can ovalise and end up leaking. I had one on our sink like
that. Bah Humbug.
Brian

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"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
I cannot quite picture your arrangement but if you are connecting your
flexible tap connector directly on to the isolator valve then I am not
surprised you are experiencing leakage problems. The isolator has
connections that involve the use of an olive to provide the water tight seal
the end of the thread has a chamfer on the inside to mate with an olive
whilst the very end does not have a flat surface to mate with anything
tending to be rather sharp too.

What I suspect you need is something like these:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/tesla-bra...x-2-pack/2665r

The plain end goes in your compression fitting on the isolator with an olive
off course and your tap connector on the threaded end with the rubber washer
you mentioned initially.

A link to a photo of what you have got would help

Richard

The tread is never part of the seal. The seal is the rubber washer
(Probably damaged by overtightening) or an olive - but never the thread.

John wrote:

The tread is never part of the seal. The seal is the rubber washer
(Probably damaged by overtightening) or an olive - but never the thread.

Except, of course, when it is. Quite common with brass, 'iron' or mild
steel fittings to similar metal fittings or pipes.

--

Roger Hayter

(Roger Hayter) wrote in news:1ogug0g.qrw7lapelwpkN%
:

John wrote:

The tread is never part of the seal. The seal is the rubber washer
(Probably damaged by overtightening) or an olive - but never the thread.

Except, of course, when it is. Quite common with brass, 'iron' or mild
steel fittings to similar metal fittings or pipes.


Of course - but the use of PTFE tape on everything with a thread is not the
solution to leaks. Most domestic modern applications - other than radiator
tails will not use the fittings you suggest.

Of course - but the use of PTFE tape on everything with a thread is not the
solution to leaks. Most domestic modern applications - other than radiator
tails will not use the fittings you sug

Got to agree with you John, I have never found a compression fitting designed to seal with an olive make a satisfactory seal with anything else no matter how much PTFE tape you put on the thread. A tap connector with a fibre washer no chance, a rubber washer I will grant you a maybe.

Richard

Trouble with flexible connectors is a number of things can go wrong other than the connection to a pipe fitting. As I think Brian has pointed out the rubber inner can fracture through age or overtightening and if this is an already used connector then it maybe a case of fixing it with a new one.

Richard

On 11/11/2019 12:00, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Of course - but the use of PTFE tape on everything with a thread is
not the solution to leaks. Most domestic modern applications -
other than radiator tails will not use the fittings you sug

Got to agree with you John, I have never found a compression fitting
designed to seal with an olive make a satisfactory seal with anything
else no matter how much PTFE tape you put on the thread.

Since compression fittings don't seal on the threads, that is not
surprising.

PTFE on threads can serve a purpose as a lubricant however - sometimes
making it easier to correctly tighten a coupling in a restricted space
or with a short spanner etc.

However the issue I expect that was being take was with John's use of
the rather absolute word "never", when there are a few examples of
domestic plumbing fittings where you need to make a seal on the threads.




--
Cheers,

John.

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The essentials of good fittings a Cleanliness, No burrs or scratches, no
cuts in washers.I cant help but think that ptfe as a lubricant is a bit of
a comfort blanket / snake oil. Why not a spray of oil? Remember to witdraw
a pipe from the compression fitting by a few mm before tightening so that
both ends of the olive see the force (ie. The pipe is not bottomed)


In my house only the radiator tails need tape as they seal on the thread. I
am just suggesting that people should consider - what is there to provide a
clamping force and what is there to create a seal. Spending time trying to
add stuff to the clamping medium when it is not the means of sealing is not
a great idea.

I had assumed that the pipe had to be all the way in to exert the nut tightening force in the olive.

Lee Nowell wrote in
:

I had assumed that the pipe had to be all the way in to exert the nut
tightening force in the olive.


By backing off slightly, the tightning force will be applied to both sides
of the olive. If the pipe is pushed all the way in then there is no
movement possible at the inner end so nearly all the final
deformation will be at the outer end of the olive. Think it through for
yourself and see if you agree.

On 09/11/2019 16:35, Lee Nowell wrote:
Sorry Richard should have mentioned that I file the ends of the isolation valve flat before fitting. Wonder if this one I didn't do it enough. Will take a look at your fitting sounds like it is just the job although I hate compression fittings as mine take several attempts before they are sealed

Nobody seen these? Made for the job.

https://www.toolstation.com/tap-tail-adaptors/p14081

--
Dave
The Medway Handyman

On 11/11/2019 13:03, John wrote:

The essentials of good fittings a Cleanliness, No burrs or scratches, no
cuts in washers.I cant help but think that ptfe as a lubricant is a bit of
a comfort blanket / snake oil.

I find it works well on the occasions that some lubrication is required,
and also eliminates the loud squeak you can sometimes get on tightening
compression fittings, which may be important in some circumstances.

Why not a spray of oil?

Less mess, no risk of contamination in the water, and less chance of
making the spanner surfaces of the nuts slippery.

Remember to witdraw
a pipe from the compression fitting by a few mm before tightening so that
both ends of the olive see the force (ie. The pipe is not bottomed)

I can't see that will make any significant difference. The nut will tend
to compress the back of the olive and also drive it into the gap between
fitting and pipe which compresses the front of it. The forces on both
sides will be largely similar and in balance. From a sealing point of
view its the front face that's closing the gap between pipe and fitting
that is doing the work anyway.

In my house only the radiator tails need tape as they seal on the thread. I
am just suggesting that people should consider - what is there to provide a
clamping force and what is there to create a seal. Spending time trying to
add stuff to the clamping medium when it is not the means of sealing is not
a great idea.

I am sure the OP, has got that message by now.



--
Cheers,

John.

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I am sure the OP, has got that message by now.




I also have a bee in my bonnet about exterior PIR lights that are aimed
horizontally!

I can't see that will make any significant difference. The nut will
tend to compress the back of the olive and also drive it into the gap
between fitting and pipe which compresses the front of it. The forces
on both sides will be largely similar and in balance. From a sealing
point of view its the front face that's closing the gap between pipe
and fitting that is doing the work anyway.



....but the front of the olive can only close up if it can slide further
down the pipe.

John wrote:

Lee Nowell wrote in
:

I had assumed that the pipe had to be all the way in to exert the nut
tightening force in the olive.


By backing off slightly, the tightning force will be applied to both sides
of the olive. If the pipe is pushed all the way in then there is no
movement possible at the inner end so nearly all the final
deformation will be at the outer end of the olive. Think it through for
yourself and see if you agree.


And especially likely to catch you out if you use the same nut and olive
on a new fitting (e.g. radiator valve) with a slightly shallower pipe
recess; without excessive deforming force the side of the olive away
from the nut will be held away ffrom the fitting by the length of the
pipe. The remedy is to take mm or two off the end of the pitpe, but
that is a nuisance.

--

Roger Hayter

On 11/11/2019 23:36, John wrote:

I am sure the OP, has got that message by now.




I also have a bee in my bonnet about exterior PIR lights that are aimed
horizontally!

:-) Yup with you on that...

(not to mention using 500W when a 60W would do the same job just as well!)


--
Cheers,

John.

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(Roger Hayter) wrote in
:

John wrote:

Lee Nowell wrote in
:

I had assumed that the pipe had to be all the way in to exert the
nut tightening force in the olive.


By backing off slightly, the tightning force will be applied to both
sides of the olive. If the pipe is pushed all the way in then there
is no movement possible at the inner end so nearly all the final
deformation will be at the outer end of the olive. Think it through
for
yourself and see if you agree.


And especially likely to catch you out if you use the same nut and
olive on a new fitting (e.g. radiator valve) with a slightly shallower
pipe recess; without excessive deforming force the side of the olive
away from the nut will be held away ffrom the fitting by the length of
the pipe. The remedy is to take mm or two off the end of the pitpe,
but that is a nuisance.


Good point.

I also have a bee in my bonnet about exterior PIR lights that are
aimed horizontally!

:-) Yup with you on that...

(not to mention using 500W when a 60W would do the same job just as
well!)



.....and many fitted by professionals.

On 11/11/2019 23:41, John wrote:

I can't see that will make any significant difference. The nut will
tend to compress the back of the olive and also drive it into the gap
between fitting and pipe which compresses the front of it. The forces
on both sides will be largely similar and in balance. From a sealing
point of view its the front face that's closing the gap between pipe
and fitting that is doing the work anyway.



...but the front of the olive can only close up if it can slide further
down the pipe.

A new olive will slide down the pipe easily - its the process of forcing
it into the socket on the fitting that results in the compression onto
the pipe, by which time its already in the right place.

To be fair, this is not a suggestion I have heard in the past, and so
have never tried doing it intentionally, but then again I have not had
any difficulty making successful compression joints in the vast majority
cf cases either.

While I accept that having a slight withdrawal of the pipe (oh err!) is
unlikely have any deleterious effect in most cases, I would also note
that it is contrary to the manufacturers instructions, which normally
stipulate that the pipe should be hard against the end stop. E.g.

http://www.pegleryorkshire.co.uk/MED...te_600_900.pdf

(see 1a)

or

http://www.conexbanninger.com/upload...14088edb0e.pdf

See section 2.1.3


--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote in


See section 2.1.3



I read the tip on here and it gave me a Eureka sensation!

On 12/11/2019 08:57, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/11/2019 23:36, John wrote:

I am sure the OP, has got that message by now.




I also have a bee in my bonnet about exterior PIR lights that are aimed
horizontally!

:-) Yup with you on that...

One of mine is almost horizontal, but a) that is because I need it to
light the full distance from the front of my garage, along the back
driveway and up to the back door of the house (especially as my wife has
poor night vision, balance problems and joint problems, so she is likely
to fall and struggle to get up again if she steps on a ball or something
in the dark) and b) our side gates are solid and tall, so the houses
opposite are not really affected.

(not to mention using 500W when a 60W would do the same job just as well!)

Ours is LED these days, but there was originally a 500W unit, partly to
get sufficient light some distance away, but also because I use the area
in front of the garage for marking out and cutting and don't want to be
stopped or make a mistake due to poor lighting on a winter evening.

SteveW

Steve Walker wrote in
:

On 12/11/2019 08:57, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/11/2019 23:36, John wrote:

I am sure the OP, has got that message by now.




I also have a bee in my bonnet about exterior PIR lights that are
aimed horizontally!

:-) Yup with you on that...

One of mine is almost horizontal, but a) that is because I need it to
light the full distance from the front of my garage, along the back
driveway and up to the back door of the house (especially as my wife
has poor night vision, balance problems and joint problems, so she is
likely to fall and struggle to get up again if she steps on a ball or
something in the dark) and b) our side gates are solid and tall, so
the houses opposite are not really affected.

(not to mention using 500W when a 60W would do the same job just as
well!)

Ours is LED these days, but there was originally a 500W unit, partly
to get sufficient light some distance away, but also because I use the
area in front of the garage for marking out and cutting and don't want
to be stopped or make a mistake due to poor lighting on a winter
evening.

SteveW


Consider the proportion of the light that is not hitting your property
at all. At least 50% will be going upwards. You may even have a dark
spot und
er the lamp. Surely aiming the centre of the "beam" at the place where
you are working will be an improvement. Better still - the edge of the
beam at the outer edge of your property to limit overspill.

My wife also has poor vision and this is made worse by having a bright
source of light in her field of vision. Our driveway light is under the
house eaves and points almost directly downwards - it is perfect for all
reasons.

On 12/11/2019 10:10, John wrote:
My wife also has poor vision and this is made worse by having a bright
source of light in her field of vision. Our driveway light is under the
house eaves and points almost directly downwards - it is perfect for all
reasons.

Our garage is the length of the back garden away from the house, so the
light needs to be strong at the front of the garage for me to work
there, but reasonably strong right along to the house and past to the
back door of the house, which is actually some way along the side.

The light is not actually horizontal, but is angled high enough that the
upper cut-off is near horizontal.

She does not suffer from problems with a bright light source, but
struggles with a lack of light - I have often guided her on unlit paths
or across campsites in the dark, where she can't see anything at all and
has to be warned of kerbs, etc., while I can see fine.

I am intending to put up lights at the side of the house - at which
point the garage light will only need to light in front of the garage
and part of the way along the garden, but that cannot be done until I am
ready to redecorate the kitchen, as wiring will need to come from there
and through the wall.

SteveW

On 12/11/2019 09:47, John wrote:
John Rumm wrote in


See section 2.1.3



I read the tip on here and it gave me a Eureka sensation!

It just gives me an "unnecessary complication that is more likely to
result in a leaking joint" sensation!

(i.e. pull it out too far and you will get a mechanically weak joint,
and poorer sealing since the olive will be too close to the end of the
pipe, which will then deform too much under tightening)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote in
o.uk:

On 12/11/2019 09:47, John wrote:
John Rumm wrote in


See section 2.1.3



I read the tip on here and it gave me a Eureka sensation!

It just gives me an "unnecessary complication that is more likely to
result in a leaking joint" sensation!

(i.e. pull it out too far and you will get a mechanically weak joint,
and poorer sealing since the olive will be too close to the end of the
pipe, which will then deform too much under tightening)



I did suggest (pass on) a millimetre or two.

When I used to read up on lighting (I was involved in stage lighting) the
mantra was to see the effect of the light but never the source of the
light.(as it results in the eye's iris closing down and everywhere else
appearing darker)

On 12/11/2019 12:56, John wrote:
John Rumm wrote in
o.uk:

On 12/11/2019 09:47, John wrote:
John Rumm wrote in


See section 2.1.3



I read the tip on here and it gave me a Eureka sensation!

It just gives me an "unnecessary complication that is more likely to
result in a leaking joint" sensation!

(i.e. pull it out too far and you will get a mechanically weak joint,
and poorer sealing since the olive will be too close to the end of the
pipe, which will then deform too much under tightening)



I did suggest (pass on) a millimetre or two.

A mm or two is easy when sat in my chair typing, but much harder to be
consistent with when scrunched into corner, working under a floor etc.

There is a little more certainty with "push it all the way in"!


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 09/11/2019 16:35, Lee Nowell wrote:
Sorry Richard should have mentioned that I file the ends of the isolation valve flat before fitting. Wonder if this one I didn't do it enough. Will take a look at your fitting sounds like it is just the job although I hate compression fittings as mine take several attempts before they are sealed

Nobody used these? Made for the job.

https://www.toolstation.com/tap-tail-adaptors/p14081

--
Dave
The Medway Handyman