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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals.
When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? John M |
#2
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Power sockets with 3 cables
John Miller wrote:
Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? John M It's probably the only way. It helps to strip them the right length, and make sure you can see all three ends of the insulation below the edge of the plastic hole over the terminal all the time you are tightening them. Possibly twisting them together is a good idea if you can do it reproducibly, but I'm not convinced. I'd be interested in what the professionals do. -- Roger Hayter |
#3
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Roger Hayter laid this down on his screen :
Possibly twisting them together is a good idea if you can do it reproducibly, but I'm not convinced. I'd be interested in what the professionals do. Never a good idea with modern cables. Just push each wire in, one at a time and tighten the terminal screw. |
#4
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 00:44, John Miller wrote:
Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3.* Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? John M UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. Then you have to be sure the screw is clamping the unbent bit and not the bit you have bent over as it could break later due to thermal creep and vibration. I never fold them over, if they don't fit and grip its time to use a different brand of fitting. |
#5
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 09:39, dennis@home wrote:
UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Rubbish. The better quality brands allow two ends of a ring to be folded over. If you must buy cheap crap from Homebase, the thats your problem. |
#6
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Why don't sockets have a system where a plate is tightened down on the wire
or wires like we used to see in terminal blocks of old. I'd have though that was a more positive method, since you would have to have the space for all three in such a socket. No not seen any either. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "Andrew" wrote in message ... On 17/10/2019 09:39, dennis@home wrote: UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Rubbish. The better quality brands allow two ends of a ring to be folded over. If you must buy cheap crap from Homebase, the thats your problem. |
#7
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Power sockets with 3 cables
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message ... Why don't sockets have a system where a plate is tightened down on the wire or wires like we used to see in terminal blocks of old. I'd have though that was a more positive method, since you would have to have the space for all three in such a socket. No not seen any either. The reason you havent seen any is because you are blind, silly. "Andrew" wrote in message ... On 17/10/2019 09:39, dennis@home wrote: UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Rubbish. The better quality brands allow two ends of a ring to be folded over. If you must buy cheap crap from Homebase, the thats your problem. |
#8
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Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL
On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 08:53:01 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again: The reason you havent seen any is because you are blind, silly. Shut your senile gob, senile cretin! -- about senile Rot Speed: "This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage." MID: |
#9
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Brian Gaff wrote:
Why don't sockets have a system where a plate is tightened down on the wire or wires like we used to see in terminal blocks of old. I'd have though that was a more positive method, since you would have to have the space for all three in such a socket. No not seen any either. It then needs to be wide enough for all the cables though doesn't it? I agree, I prefer the type you describe as well but often have the problem that the wires get the wrong side of the plate. -- Chris Green · |
#10
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 09:11, Chris Green wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote: Why don't sockets have a system where a plate is tightened down on the wire or wires like we used to see in terminal blocks of old. I'd have though that was a more positive method, since you would have to have the space for all three in such a socket. No not seen any either. It then needs to be wide enough for all the cables though doesn't it? I agree, I prefer the type you describe as well but often have the problem that the wires get the wrong side of the plate. You can do it using an rectangular terminal recess, where the width matches the scree diameter - so its not easy for wires to be "missed" by the screw, but the length still allows for plenty of wires. These GET Ultimate ones I find are easy to get 4 wires into: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...rminations.jpg -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#11
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Chris Green wrote:
Brian Gaff wrote: Why don't sockets have a system where a plate is tightened down on the wire or wires like we used to see in terminal blocks of old. I'd have though that was a more positive method, since you would have to have the space for all three in such a socket. No not seen any either. It then needs to be wide enough for all the cables though doesn't it? I agree, I prefer the type you describe as well but often have the problem that the wires get the wrong side of the plate. I find you can avoid that by starting with the terminal screw fully unscrewed, at least with most types. -- Roger Hayter |
#12
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 11:11, Andrew wrote:
On 17/10/2019 09:39, dennis@home wrote: UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Rubbish. The better quality brands allow two ends of a ring to be folded over. If you must buy cheap crap from Homebase, the thats your problem. Why do you always post contradictions that have no relevance to what you are posting about rod? Just because the hole is big enough doesn't mean they are designed to do something. Its so you can fit three or more cables in. |
#13
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 22:57:45 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: On 17/10/2019 11:11, Andrew wrote: On 17/10/2019 09:39, dennis@home wrote: UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Rubbish. The better quality brands allow two ends of a ring to be folded over. If you must buy cheap crap from Homebase, the thats your problem. Why do you always post contradictions that have no relevance to what you are posting about rod? It's because he is a lonely troll, killfiled by many (and hence all the aliases) and because he is mostly ignored, has taken on a 'peanut gallery' approach, mostly for his own entertainment. It's similar with whisky-dave, other than at least he's posting from this country (even if he's from a different planet). ;-) Cheers, T i m |
#14
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Power sockets with 3 cables
In article ,
dennis@home wrote: On 17/10/2019 00:44, John Miller wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? John M UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Eh? Can you explain further? Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. You must search far and wide to find wire of such poor quality. Then you have to be sure the screw is clamping the unbent bit and not the bit you have bent over as it could break later due to thermal creep and vibration. Screwing it down properly will centralise the cable gripping both equally. Just as happens with two separate cables. I never fold them over, if they don't fit and grip its time to use a different brand of fitting. Only time I'd fold a cable is where it is a single - like on a spur. No need with two or three. -- *Give me ambiguity or give me something else. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#15
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 14:48, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , dennis@home wrote: On 17/10/2019 00:44, John Miller wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? John M UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Eh? Can you explain further? Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. You must search far and wide to find wire of such poor quality. All copper cables work harden. Then you have to be sure the screw is clamping the unbent bit and not the bit you have bent over as it could break later due to thermal creep and vibration. Screwing it down properly will centralise the cable gripping both equally. Just as happens with two separate cables. What about the other cables or are you just talking about a spur? How do you check? I never fold them over, if they don't fit and grip its time to use a different brand of fitting. Only time I'd fold a cable is where it is a single - like on a spur. No need with two or three. No need on a spur either. |
#16
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Power sockets with 3 cables
dennis@home pretended :
All copper cables work harden. True, but only if they are 'worked', as in continually flexed. In a normal fixed installation cables do not become work hardened. |
#17
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Power sockets with 3 cables
I think the terminal specs. are deliberately tight to stop people inserting four 2.5mm2 cables in and creating two spurs off one socket. I do seem to recall terminals used to be wider maybe back in the day when stranded wires were used or maybe with age they look smaller these days😁
Richard |
#18
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Power sockets with 3 cables
In article ,
dennis@home wrote: Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. You must search far and wide to find wire of such poor quality. All copper cables work harden. Then only bend them once. I do accept this needs the skill to get it right first time. -- *If I worked as much as others, I would do as little as they * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#19
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Power sockets with 3 cables
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated :
Only time I'd fold a cable is where it is a single - like on a spur. No need with two or three. +1 |
#20
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 10:15, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Dave Plowman (News) formulated : Only time I'd fold a cable is where it is a single - like on a spur. No need with two or three. +1 All the original sockets in my 1976-build house had the ends of power cables folded over. |
#21
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On Thursday, 17 October 2019 09:39:32 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. don't think I've ever had that happen. Being nicked by cutters can do it, but not bending it over, even if then pliered tight. Then you have to be sure the screw is clamping the unbent bit and not the bit you have bent over as it could break later due to thermal creep and vibration. I don't think so. Don't think I've ever encountered any vibrating wall sockets either. I never fold them over, if they don't fit and grip its time to use a different brand of fitting. Or fold the cable end over. Seems more sensible to me anyway. NT |
#22
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Power sockets with 3 cables
dennis@home explained on 17/10/2019 :
UK sockets aren't designed to have the ends folded over. Folding the single core enough to get it in will probably result in stress fractures. Then you have to be sure the screw is clamping the unbent bit and not the bit you have bent over as it could break later due to thermal creep and vibration. Folding works fine, where there is only one wire to go in the terminal and the hole is too large. Idea is to fill up the hole, to promote best contact between wire, terminal and screw. |
#23
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On Thursday, 17 October 2019 00:44:20 UTC+1, John Miller wrote:
Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. For 3 cables twisting seems to make things harder. Owain |
#24
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Power sockets with 3 cables
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#25
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:26:24 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
If there was room in the box/pattress, would it be in line with the regs to use a 3-way Wago with the ring mains connected to that rather than the socket screw, and the single "output" connected to the screw terminal of the ring socket together with the spur wire to the new socket? That would be equivalent to putting two sockets on a single spur off the ring which is not allowed. John |
#26
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Power sockets with 3 cables
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#27
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 11:10, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 17/10/19 10:36, wrote: On Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:26:24 UTC+1, Jeff Layman* wrote: If there was room in the box/pattress, would it be in line with the regs to use a 3-way Wago with the ring mains connected to that rather than the socket screw, and the single "output" connected to the screw terminal of the ring socket together with the spur wire to the new socket? That would be equivalent to putting two sockets on a single spur off the ring which is not allowed. John Indeed. Hadn't thought of that. What about a different layout: Ring in to current socket screw - new wire from that screw to 3-way Wago - one of the two remaining Wago connections to the other ring main, and the final Wago connection to the new spur? That makes the Wago part of the ring, and the spur is off that. I wondered about doing the same just the other day... |
#28
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Power sockets with 3 cables
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#30
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 10:36, wrote:
On Thursday, 17 October 2019 10:26:24 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote: If there was room in the box/pattress, would it be in line with the regs to use a 3-way Wago with the ring mains connected to that rather than the socket screw, and the single "output" connected to the screw terminal of the ring socket together with the spur wire to the new socket? That would be equivalent to putting two sockets on a single spur off the ring which is not allowed. No, that is the equivalent of putting one double socket on the end of an unfused spur, and that *is* allowed. (one double is allowed since the nominal load is taken as 20A, and the minimum installed cable current carrying capacity on a ring circuit is 20A) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#31
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Power sockets with 3 cables
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#32
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 17/10/2019 16:38, Michael Chare wrote:
On 17/10/2019 10:07, wrote: On Thursday, 17 October 2019 00:44:20 UTC+1, John Miller* wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3.* Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. Is there really no BS standard? There are for sockets, but they don't mandate the size and capacity of the terminals beyond being adequate. IME modern socket terminals are easier to wire than older ones, especially the type with rectangular recesses. That way the width of the recess can be a fairly close match to the width of the terminal screw, and so its much easier to clamp a single wire without risk of it slipping out to the side from under the screw, but you also have plenty of capacity for 4 x 2.5mm^2 wires due to the length of the recess. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#33
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Power sockets with 3 cables
Michael Chare wrote:
On 17/10/2019 10:07, wrote: On Thursday, 17 October 2019 00:44:20 UTC+1, John Miller wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. Is there really no BS standard? Surely BS1363 applies, whether that covers the size of terminals I don't know though. -- Chris Green · |
#34
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 09:36, Chris Green wrote:
Michael Chare wrote: On 17/10/2019 10:07, wrote: On Thursday, 17 October 2019 00:44:20 UTC+1, John Miller wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. Is there really no BS standard? Surely BS1363 applies, whether that covers the size of terminals I don't know though. I only have the 2003 edition: "11.5 Line and neutral terminals in fixed socket-outlets shall permit the connection, without special preparation, of one, two or three 2.5 mm2 solid or stranded or of one or two 4 mm2 stranded conductors. 11.5.1 Compliance shall be checked by inspection and by fitting the appropriate conductors. 11.6 Earthing terminals in fixed socket-outlets shall permit the connection, without special preparation, of one, two or three 1.5 mm2 or 2.5 mm2 solid or stranded or of one or two 4 mm2 stranded conductors. 11.6.1 Compliance shall be checked by inspection and fitting the appropriate conductors." Of course fitting 3 x 2.5mm on the bench in good light with freshly stripped new cable may be a bit different from replacing a socket on old cable with bugger all slack, with a permanent wave, inside a cupboard. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#35
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 10:05, Robin wrote:
Of course fitting 3 x 2.5mm on the bench in good light with freshly stripped new cable may be a bit different from replacing a socket on old cable with bugger all slack, with a permanent wave, inside a cupboard. well get a short back and sides then! -- Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill |
#36
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 10:05, Robin wrote:
I only have the 2003 edition: "11.5 Line and neutral terminals in fixed socket-outlets shall permit the connection, without special preparation, of one, two or three 2.5 mm2 solid or stranded or of one or two 4 mm2 stranded conductors. I'm assuming that folding the end over counts as "special preparation" which would imply that there should never be any need to fold the ends. |
#37
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Power sockets with 3 cables
On 18/10/2019 09:36, Chris Green wrote:
Michael Chare wrote: On 17/10/2019 10:07, wrote: On Thursday, 17 October 2019 00:44:20 UTC+1, John Miller wrote: Interested to know how others do this, particularly the professionals. When spurring off a socket on the ring, there's always 3 cables to fit into the holes. In the past I've tried twisting the 3 together, usually with pliers, but not always successfully, folding individual cables back on themselves just don't seems to fit even clamping them up tightly with pliers- 2 OK but not 3. Fitting them with a single strand seems to be the easiest way but is it a good idea? Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. Is there really no BS standard? Surely BS1363 applies, whether that covers the size of terminals I don't know though. BS 1363-2:2016 says: "11.5 Line and neutral terminals in fixed socket-outlets shall permit the connection, without special preparation, of one, two or three 2.5 mm2 solid or stranded or of one or two 4 mm2 stranded conductors as given in Table 4 of [BS 6004:20121." "11.8 Terminal screws shall have a declared outside diameter of not less than 3 mm or be not smaller than 6 B.A." There are quite a number of specs on sockets with screewless connections as well. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#38
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Power sockets with 3 cables
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#39
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Power sockets with 3 cables
"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message ... laid this down on his screen : Sockets vary widely in their terminal sizes - some will accept 3 x 2.5mm easily, others won't, even if they should. Never come across that! For 3 cables twisting seems to make things harder. Obviously, if they are twisted then the diameter will be increased due to the bunching. No it does not. It will also make them more prone to breakage due to the stress of twisting. Never had that. If they don't break on first installation, they certainly will if they have to be disconnected and reconnected after testing Yes, that's the real downside with twisting, doesn't allow easy testing, but that's only really necessary with a ring, not a spur. - never twist them. Twisting is much better when the wires are much smaller than the terminal hole can take. You can see one of the wires get up the side of the screw you don't twist them in that situation. Twisting used to be necessary with the old Imperial stranded sizes, And still is when the wire gauge is much smaller than the terminal hole can take with more than one wire. |
#40
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More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed!
On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 05:00:54 +1100, ZakJames, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote: FLUSH senile asshole's latest troll**** 05:00 am in Australia? Were you on tenterhooks waiting for 05:00, so you wouldn't post a 04:something, you ridiculous miserable clinically insane asshole? LOL -- Richard addressing Rot Speed: "**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll." MID: |
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