Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to what the situation
in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!



On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:05:26 -0700, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than
it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in
the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30
million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that
distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household
in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly
makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would
be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement
of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no
separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral
is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be
grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is
considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would
be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the
grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard
to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground
and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this
a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is
prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging
capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in
public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and
parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny
compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their
word for that one.

Rick C.





--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

Cursitor Doom wrote...


Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to
what the situation in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!

Well, R.C. was told, so we'll just have to leave it at that.


--
Thanks,
- Win

On 16/06/2019 14:18, Winfield Hill wrote:
Cursitor Doom wrote...


Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to
what the situation in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!

Well, R.C. was told, so we'll just have to leave it at that.

The number he has might well be right as a time average across a year
for a household. Typical numbers for various sorts and sizes of UK house
are online here in terms of energy use in kWhr per household per year.

It is about 3-4MWhr per year per household or 8-11kWhr/day on average.

That translates to a 300-500W average daily load which seems a bit high
to me. My own daily peak load is about 350W average and night time base
load is well under 100W unless I am running something on the computers.

Interesting that several green sites quote the 6kWhr/day figure when
working out how many homes a new green energy PV farm can supply.
(at least when the sun is shining or the wind blowing hard enough)

But I am fairly sure that the distribution system is good for delivering
considerably more than that as peak transient load without any problems
at all. It happens with 3kW kettles at half time every cup final day.

They have to prep the generating system ready for the exact moment and
then engage the rapid response kit and pumped storage at full tilt.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

I'm a little worried about charging devices on lamp posts. With the idiots
we have, I'd fully expect these to be vandalised in short order.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Winfield Hill" wrote in message
...
Cursitor Doom wrote...


Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to
what the situation in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!

Well, R.C. was told, so we'll just have to leave it at that.


--
Thanks,
- Win

On 16/06/2019 10:42, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to what the situation
in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!



On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:05:26 -0700, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than
it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in
the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30
million vehicles for 50 miles.

That does rather assume there is not also a move to shift domestic
heating away from gas or oil to electric. We would certainly need more
generating capacity for any significant shift.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that
distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household
in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly
makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would
be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement
of a lot of distribution cabling.

Distribution networks are sized based on statistical models - so they
will calculate an average load over 24 hours to assess total demand.
However they do also anticipate significantly higher peak demands. New
properties are typically built with a 24kW electrical supply (1 phase,
100A, 240V). Older properties may have 80, 60 or in some cases only 40A
supplies. Typical home charging stations will run at 6kW, although those
with smaller EVs may opt to use a 13A (~3kW) charging lead plugged into
a socket. As EV battery capacities grow this kind of charging solution
may become less practical for some.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no
separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.

PME (Protective Multiple Earthing) distribution systems supply the
property with a "PEN" conductor - Protective Earth and Neutral. This is
the main neutral as derived at the substation - however as its name
suggests it is bonded to earth at the substation, and then at regular
intervals along the distribution network. Its the preferred solution
for new supplies since it delivers a reliable and low impedance earth
path. Many older properties however will have TN-S earthing systems,
(i.e. separate earth delivered from the sub station to the property).
Older rural properties may well have no earth supply from the network at
all (TT systems)

For more detail see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_Types

This neutral
is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be
grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is
considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would
be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the
grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage.

Generally more caution is used when exporting a PME earth to outside
circuits. The risk of neutral disconnection (and not line also) is
considered a fairly low likelihood event. However precautions taken
typically include extending the equipotential zone to where you are
exporting power. This is not ideally suited for EV charge points outside.

This does make it hard
to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground
and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this
a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is
prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

No not really. In many cases you simply convert to TT with local RCD
(GFCI). Hence any ground rod only needs a stable earth impedance under
the low hundreds of ohms, and that is relatively easy to achieve.

See:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...rting_an_earth

Note also that there are specific additional rules for EV charging point
protection (special classed of RCD etc) designed to mitigate some of the
perceived problems.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging
capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in
public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and
parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny
compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their
word for that one.

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve without significant
new infrastructure. Hopefully at some point there ought to be a larger
network of fast chargers that can be used to charge on demand, rather
than overnight. Making for something closer to the current normal
practice of stopping off at a filling station to refuel.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 15:09:11 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

[...]

Thanks, John. Nice to have advice from someone that actually knows what
they're talking about for a change.



--
Leave first - THEN negotiate!

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.


--
Thanks,
- Win

On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:58:07 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.

Seems like a business opportunity here. Block access and move for a
"small" fee. Much better than a lemonade stand (cities are cracking
down on those).

On 16/06/2019 22:58, John Rumm wrote:

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.



They do that a lot in ikea.

It wouldn't happen as much if they didn't put the charging spaces next
to the door.

Pretty soon they are going to be in trouble as the spaces are too small
for disabled spaces so they have no charging spaces for the disabled.

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:04:35 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 16/06/2019 22:58, John Rumm wrote:

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.



They do that a lot in ikea.

It wouldn't happen as much if they didn't put the charging spaces next
to the door.

Pretty soon they are going to be in trouble as the spaces are too small
for disabled spaces so they have no charging spaces for the disabled.



This Tesla charging station is seldom used (it's up in the mountains
where Teslas rarely dare to go, especially in winter)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i8ufcz1mq...sla_1.jpg?dl=0

so when Safeway is crowded, real cars park in the slots.

That's my Audi. It loves mountains and snow. We can make it from San
Francisco to Truckee on one tank of gas, in a blizzard, with the
heater and headlights on. With 4wd and snow tires, we just smile at
the chain control checkpoint folks.







--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

John Rumm posted
On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of
those get blocked by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking
permits would quadruple to £400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for
diesels, but fall to zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they
said) to encourage people to dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to
electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents
who needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the
street, and such people couldn't have electric vehicles because it
wouldn't be lawful to charge them at the kerbside.

Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be
one of the killers.

--
Evremonde

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 15:54:28 +0100, The Marquis Saint Evremonde
wrote:

John Rumm posted
On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of
those get blocked by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking
permits would quadruple to £400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for
diesels, but fall to zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they
said) to encourage people to dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to
electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents
who needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the
street, and such people couldn't have electric vehicles because it
wouldn't be lawful to charge them at the kerbside.

Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be
one of the killers.

San Francisco is governed by its Board of Stupidvisors.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

On 17/06/19 15:54, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
John Rumm posted
On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
Â*Â* I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
Â* car spots of my driveway.Â* Apartment dwellers in a
Â* crowded city have a problem.Â* Several are like that
Â* here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only some on
street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those get blocked
by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking permits
would quadruple to £400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for diesels, but fall to
zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they said) to encourage people to
dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents who
needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the street, and such
people couldn't have electric vehicles because it wouldn't be lawful to charge
them at the kerbside.

I can quite see why charging at the kerbside is, er,
problematic (see my other posts), but what makes it illegal.


Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be one of
the killers.

Joined up thinking? They've heard of it.

On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:05:31 -0400, wrote:

On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

John Larkin wrote:

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.

You have been driving for hours, check into a motel and find you cannot
recharge your car?

Go across the street to another motel that advertises charge hookups. Just
add the cost to your room bill.

On 17/06/2019 04:51, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:05:31 -0400, wrote:

On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.



The title does actually say "Charging in the UK" and trailing
mains cables carrying 230V across pavements is definately
not allowed, from the trip hazard alone. In the UK we have
a growing 'Compo culture' from a group collectively
referred to (by supermarket and shops) as 'Slippers and trippers'

On 17/06/2019 03:05, wrote:
On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

No, can't see that being looked upon favourably. There are a few
kerbside charging points on the street though.

Here is a relatively new example:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...dded-into-kerb



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

There are a few kerbside charging points on the street though.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...dded-into-kerb

Wonder if the council has been sued for installing these trip hazards yet?

On 17/06/2019 10:36, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/06/2019 03:05, wrote:
On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway.Â* Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem.Â* Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

No, can't see that being looked upon favourably. There are a few
kerbside charging points on the street though.

Here is a relatively new example:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-ne...dded-into-kerb




That looks like it's dead in the water.... How long before it gets
trashed by vandals/water/dirt etc?.Madness and a trip hazard to all
those who walk with a mobile welded to their ear... LOL

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus