Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall plate,
and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led to
thought about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would
itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just
have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse,
etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't need
three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the same
time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or distorted
when the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the connections
without the front of the box being on to make sure it all worked before
screwing the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it. Ceiling-mounted
pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement, and, although not
exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have always had
the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the removable front.

--

Jeff

I think often its one of space for the connections. Particularly important
on RF of course as you need to preserve impedance matches, and with thick
mains cables its often easier to do it with it all open and then bend the
wires so they do not get crushed when assembled.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall plate,
and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led to thought
about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate? Why
aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on or in
the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be mains
cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it could be
connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would itself be
screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just have holes in
it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse, etc, and that
would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't need
three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the same
time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or distorted when
the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the connections without
the front of the box being on to make sure it all worked before screwing
the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it. Ceiling-mounted
pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement, and, although not
exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have always had
the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the removable front.

--

Jeff

On 4/15/2019 8:26 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would
itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just
have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse,
etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

That's how it's done in North America - certainly makes decor changes
easier...

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 09:08:28 +0100, S Viemeister
wrote:

On 4/15/2019 8:26 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which
would itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would
just have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch,
fuse, etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

That's how it's done in North America - certainly makes decor changes
easier...

And in some (?all?) parts of EU - .pt is a case in point

Avpx

--
Windle shook his head sadly. Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of
an insane mind.
(Reaper Man)
09:25:02 up 39 days, 18:21, 9 users, load average: 2.15, 1.63, 1.24

On 15/04/2019 08:26, Jeff Layman wrote:
Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall plate,
and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led to
thought about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would
itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just
have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse,
etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't need
three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the same
time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or distorted
when the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the connections
without the front of the box being on to make sure it all worked before
screwing the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it. Ceiling-mounted
pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement, and, although not
exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have always had
the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the removable front.


ISTM you only avoid the need for three hands if you screw the switch etc
to the back of the box /before/ you connect the cable(s). That seems to
me to create challenges for (a) where cables are connected - eg it's not
a good idea to have them where they can be touched if the front plate
comes off or is loose and (b) cable management - especially if cable
enters through the back of the box.

Separate "decor" covers is another matter - as eg with screwless fittings.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall plate,
and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led to thought
about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate? Why
aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on or in
the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be mains
cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it could be
connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would itself be
screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just have holes in
it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse, etc, and that
would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't need
three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the same
time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or distorted when
the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the connections without
the front of the box being on to make sure it all worked before screwing
the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it.

Yes, it really doesnt work with mains sockets which
work a lot better the the socket on the faceplate

Ceiling-mounted pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement, and,
although not exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have
always had the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the
removable front.

Yes, it really doesnt work with mains sockets which work a lot
better the the socket on the faceplate. Same with light switches.

On 15/04/2019 10:10, Robin wrote:
On 15/04/2019 08:26, Jeff Layman wrote:
Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall
plate, and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led
to thought about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted
on or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could
be mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box,
it could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which
would itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would
just have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch,
fuse, etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't
need three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the
same time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or
distorted when the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the
connections without the front of the box being on to make sure it all
worked before screwing the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it. Ceiling-mounted
pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement, and, although not
exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have always
had the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the removable
front.


ISTM you only avoid the need for three hands if you screw the switch etc
to the back of the box /before/ you connect the cable(s).Â* That seems to
me to create challenges for (a) where cables are connected - eg it's not
a good idea to have them where they can be touched if the front plate
comes off or is loose and (b) cable management - especially if cable
enters through the back of the box.

It is worse if the cables are plastered in and can't be moved back and
forth:

a) it is easier to make the connections outside and then bend the excess
core length as you put the fitting in. You'd have less movement with
shorter lengths of cable and it'd likely be harder to get the longer
lengths out of the way while you work when the accessory is already in
place.

b) different manufacturers have the terminals in different places and
shorter lengths may not easily move to a different location upon
replacement.

c) if the end of the cable becomes damaged you have spare on the longer
lengths, although the faceplate is then closer to the wall while you are
working and it beomes harder.

Another alternative is modular units, where you can feed the cables
through the faceplate, mount it, connect the modules and then clip them
into the faceplate - which is easier than manouevring two cables at once
(for a double ethernet accessory for example).

What would make a great deal of sense is standardised back boxes across
all manufacturers, with built in, high quality connectors that will
last. Having connectors with terminal screws (braid clamps or IDC
connectors depending upon service type) in standard positions, with
fixed connectors. All the accessories to plug directly in and mains
connectors to be recessed. Homeowners could then remove any accessory
safely for decorating or replacement without touching the wiring (rather
like central heating controller backplates).

By careful positioning, it should be possible for more than one
connection to be incorporated at the same time - allowing say for
satellite or TV and ethernet (as required by many set-top boxes).

The same IDC connectors would work for phone or ethernet.

All a bit too much I know.

SteveW

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:31:48 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Yes,

BRUAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Yes,

BRUAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Are you sick or what? LOL

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On 15/04/2019 08:26, Jeff Layman wrote:

Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall plate,
and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly, led to
thought about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would
itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just
have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse,
etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't need
three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the same
time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or distorted
when the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the connections
without the front of the box being on to make sure it all worked before
screwing the front on.

Having the ability to reposition / rotate the faceplate etc is sometimes
very handy for getting it into a position you can actually see or reach
to wire.

I suspect that main problem however would be the system you describe
would lack the flexibility of the current arrangement - where you can
use the same faceplate with a variety of back box designs to suit the
application (e.g. surface, solid wall, dry lined wall etc).

Also modern building practice will tend to first fix the electricals,
often before the plastering is done. Its bad enough when the plasterer
half fills your metal back box with plaster that you have to clear out
before adding the electrical bit. You would have more of a job trying to
protect a backbox with built in electrical contacts and switch gear etc.


I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it. Ceiling-mounted
pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement,

Some do, some don't...

and, although not
exactly the same (and now not used much), junction boxes have always had
the connectors fixed to the back of the box, not to the removable front.

In the past there was a fairly common range of MK made surface mount
mains sockets that had everything built into back bit and worked as you
describe. They were in reality often harder to wire since there was less
leeway in the length of wires etc - they had to be exactly right to fit
since there was little scope to fold excess wires back into the back
box. Also you had to wire them before fixing the whole thing to the
wall, which was more cumbersome that just holding the loose face plate
since the whole thing was much larger.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 15/04/2019 10:46, Steve Walker wrote:
On 15/04/2019 10:10, Robin wrote:
On 15/04/2019 08:26, Jeff Layman wrote:
Reading the recent thread about connecting coaxial inside a wall
plate, and how to make sure the coax outer was connected properly,
led to thought about these wall box connections in general.

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front
plate? Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is
fitted on or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and
that could be mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side
of the box, it could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or
whatever which would itself be screwed to the back of the box. The
front cover would just have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket,
coax socket, switch, fuse, etc, and that would be fixed to the box in
the usual manner.

There seem to me several advantages to this. Firstly, you wouldn't
need three hands to hold the box front, cable, and screwdriver at the
same time. Secondly, The cables wouldn't get moved, crushed, or
distorted when the front is screwed on. Thirdly, you could test the
connections without the front of the box being on to make sure it all
worked before screwing the front on.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but can't see it.
Ceiling-mounted pull switches for bathrooms have this arrangement,
and, although not exactly the same (and now not used much), junction
boxes have always had the connectors fixed to the back of the box,
not to the removable front.


ISTM you only avoid the need for three hands if you screw the switch
etc to the back of the box /before/ you connect the cable(s).Â* That
seems to me to create challenges for (a) where cables are connected -
eg it's not a good idea to have them where they can be touched if the
front plate comes off or is loose and (b) cable management -
especially if cable enters through the back of the box.

It is worse if the cables are plastered in and can't be moved back and
forth:

a) it is easier to make the connections outside and then bend the excess
core length as you put the fitting in. You'd have less movement with
shorter lengths of cable and it'd likely be harder to get the longer
lengths out of the way while you work when the accessory is already in
place.

b) different manufacturers have the terminals in different places and
shorter lengths may not easily move to a different location upon
replacement.

c) if the end of the cable becomes damaged you have spare on the longer
lengths, although the faceplate is then closer to the wall while you are
working and it beomes harder.

Another alternative is modular units, where you can feed the cables
through the faceplate, mount it, connect the modules and then clip them
into the faceplate - which is easier than manouevring two cables at once
(for a double ethernet accessory for example).

Yup, I am a big fan of modular connections for signal grade stuff
(network, phone, TV, sat etc), easy to wire, easy to repair, and very
flexible without needing a big stock of obscure faceplates.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Yes but your switch could be padres mounted or on a wall box set into the
wall, and at the moment the screw spacing is the same for both so the switch
comes separately. If you look around new builds you see the boxes in the
walls with no sockets fitted yet and just wires poking out, then along comes
the guy with the switches, hoping nobody made the circuit live yet. grin.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"S Viemeister" wrote in message
...
On 4/15/2019 8:26 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

Basically, why are the components fitted to the removable front plate?
Why aren't they fixed to the back of the box (whether that is fitted on
or in the wall)? It seems to me that as the wiring - and that could be
mains cable or coax - enters through the back of side of the box, it
could be connected directly to a switch, socket, or whatever which would
itself be screwed to the back of the box. The front cover would just
have holes in it to accept the 3-pin socket, coax socket, switch, fuse,
etc, and that would be fixed to the box in the usual manner.

That's how it's done in North America - certainly makes decor changes
easier...