I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front and
back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft cross-brace;
those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side brace. On one side,
the braces have come loose from the holes in the legs, making the chair
rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in case
I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a joint
where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I can
extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play to
remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on
straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing
glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then pushing it
back together.

On Saturday, 17 November 2018 15:36:39 UTC, NY wrote:
I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front and
back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft cross-brace;
those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side brace. On one side,
the braces have come loose from the holes in the legs, making the chair
rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in case
I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a joint
where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I can
extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play to
remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on
straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing
glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then pushing it
back together.

You won't get a secure joint unless you remove all traces of the original glue.
Even if it means completely dismantling the chair.
You need some means of clamping the parts together until the glue sets.
If the joints have a lot of play, you need a gap filling glue (not PVA)
eg resin

On Saturday, 17 November 2018 15:36:39 UTC, NY wrote:
I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front and
back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft cross-brace;
those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side brace. On one side,
the braces have come loose from the holes in the legs, making the chair
rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in case
I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a joint
where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I can
extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play to
remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on
straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing
glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then pushing it
back together.

On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:
I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front
and back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft
cross-brace; those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side
brace. On one side, the braces have come loose from the holes in the
legs, making the chair rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but
the glue joint broke almost immediately (after letting it set for
several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in
case I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a
joint where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I
can extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play
to remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to
rely on straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace,
smearing glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and
then pushing it back together.

GIYF

This one is OK

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Veritas-C...-/312254602208

Drill access holes as required with a small drill (less than 2 mm). A
dremel type drill is useful for this.

Araldite is what I have used in the past. It didn't last, I've found that once chairs start to get rickety there is no saving them with glue, even screws do not give it much more life. I haven't tried completely dismantling one and regluing but I suspect that that is what you need to do.

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 07:59:39 -0800, Rednadnerb wrote:

Araldite is what I have used in the past. It didn't last, I've found
that once chairs start to get rickety there is no saving them with glue,
even screws do not give it much more life. I haven't tried completely
dismantling one and regluing but I suspect that that is what you need to
do.

I did this with four dining room chairs about ten years ago. I used
Cascamite.

They have been rock solid ever since.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:

I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front
and back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft
cross-brace; those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side
brace. On one side, the braces have come loose from the holes in the
legs, making the chair rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but
the glue joint broke almost immediately (after letting it set for
several hours).

The only glue that will cope with joints that are not snug fitting is
epoxy. PVA has not gap filling capacity.

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in
case I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a
joint where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I
can extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play
to remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to
rely on straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace,
smearing glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and
then pushing it back together.

Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.

For really good pull out resistance on a mortice and tenon joint, you
would need a wedged or "foxed" tenon. With chair leg joints you normally
have blind mortices, and so need hidden wedges.

Kind of like a round version of :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Blind_Mortices

(typically the mortice in the leg is widened toward its base, and then
the tenon on the stretcher, has a saw kerf cut down it across its
diameter. The wedge is then placed into the kerf once everything is
glued up, and the joint assembled and driven home)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:36:39 PM UTC, NY wrote:
I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front and
back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft cross-brace;
those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side brace. On one side,
the braces have come loose from the holes in the legs, making the chair
rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in case
I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a joint
where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I can
extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play to
remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on
straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing
glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then pushing it
back together.


I would get it all steam-damp with hot water and pull apart all the leg joints, then reassemble using traditional glue (which is plant based now not animal based). I'd use spanish windlasses to bind it together while the glue sets. Using old fashioned glue like this means that there is no need to get every last smidgeon of original glue out because it will be bound in when the new hot glue goes in.

But whatever glue you use, remember to have the chair standing on a good flat floor (or use a flat board if the chair is upside down) as you glue it so the four legs will touch the floor properly.

Robert

On 18/11/2018 15:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:


Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.

For really good pull out resistance on a mortice and tenon joint, you
would need a wedged or "foxed" tenon. With chair leg joints you normally
have blind mortices, and so need hidden wedges.

Kind of like a round version of :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Blind_Mortices

(typically the mortice in the leg is widened toward its base, and then
the tenon on the stretcher, has a saw kerf cut down it across its
diameter. The wedge is then placed into the kerf once everything is
glued up, and the joint assembled and driven home)



Interesting. That's never been obvious to me in any of the chairs that I
have had come loose, but then I guess they don't come loose!

What do you think of these things like Chair Doctor that are supposed to
make stuff swell up and then set? They have worked OK for me in a few
things, but I do normally try to clean out the old glue fairly well, and
I am pretty good at strapping things up tight either with tourniquets or
with multiple luggage elastics while they set.

On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 3:47:48 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:

I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front
and back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft
cross-brace; those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side
brace. On one side, the braces have come loose from the holes in the
legs, making the chair rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but
the glue joint broke almost immediately (after letting it set for
several hours).

The only glue that will cope with joints that are not snug fitting is
epoxy. PVA has not gap filling capacity.

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in
case I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a
joint where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I
can extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play
to remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to
rely on straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace,
smearing glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and
then pushing it back together.

Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.

For really good pull out resistance on a mortice and tenon joint, you
would need a wedged or "foxed" tenon. With chair leg joints you normally
have blind mortices, and so need hidden wedges.

Kind of like a round version of :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Blind_Mortices

(typically the mortice in the leg is widened toward its base, and then
the tenon on the stretcher, has a saw kerf cut down it across its
diameter. The wedge is then placed into the kerf once everything is
glued up, and the joint assembled and driven home)


In some chairs, where the holes in the elm seat go righ through, you can see that kind of wedge. But in others I think the motice in the seat don't go all through. Did they sometimes hide a wedge inside the mortice before driving the leg in? That would be neat. I'm talking here about those typical bentwood chairs I suppose.

On 18/11/2018 16:44, newshound wrote:
On 18/11/2018 15:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:


Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.

For really good pull out resistance on a mortice and tenon joint, you
would need a wedged or "foxed" tenon. With chair leg joints you
normally have blind mortices, and so need hidden wedges.

Kind of like a round version of :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Blind_Mortices

(typically the mortice in the leg is widened toward its base, and then
the tenon on the stretcher, has a saw kerf cut down it across its
diameter. The wedge is then placed into the kerf once everything is
glued up, and the joint assembled and driven home)



Interesting. That's never been obvious to me in any of the chairs that I
have had come loose, but then I guess they don't come loose!

Well possibly - I don't know how commonly its done on modern chairs. I
would expect allot of modern stuff might just have a pin nail fired
through the side of the mortice and into the tenon.

What do you think of these things like Chair Doctor that are supposed to
make stuff swell up and then set? They have worked OK for me in a few
things, but I do normally try to clean out the old glue fairly well, and
I am pretty good at strapping things up tight either with tourniquets or
with multiple luggage elastics while they set.

If it makes the tenon swell, then its kind of doing a similar thing
(although without the undercut in the mortice, you don't get quite the
same mechanical lock).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/11/2018 17:22, wrote:
On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 3:47:48 PM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:

I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with
front and back legs on each side held from splaying out by a
fore-and-aft cross-brace; those two braces are themselves joined
by a side-to-side brace. On one side, the braces have come loose
from the holes in the legs, making the chair rickety. I tried
gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

The only glue that will cope with joints that are not snug fitting
is epoxy. PVA has not gap filling capacity.

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other
joints (in case I make things worse). What is the best glue to
use for sticking a joint where one wooden piece fits into a hole
in the side of another? I can extract the cross-brace by about 10
mm, but there isn't enough play to remove the brace totally to
line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on straining the
joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing glue
around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then
pushing it back together.

Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.

For really good pull out resistance on a mortice and tenon joint,
you would need a wedged or "foxed" tenon. With chair leg joints you
normally have blind mortices, and so need hidden wedges.

Kind of like a round version of :

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...Blind_Mortices

(typically the mortice in the leg is widened toward its base, and
then the tenon on the stretcher, has a saw kerf cut down it across
its diameter. The wedge is then placed into the kerf once
everything is glued up, and the joint assembled and driven home)


In some chairs, where the holes in the elm seat go righ through, you
can see that kind of wedge. But in others I think the motice in the
seat don't go all through. Did they sometimes hide a wedge inside the
mortice before driving the leg in? That would be neat. I'm talking
here about those typical bentwood chairs I suppose.

Yup, exactly (pretty much what is shown in the last photo on the wiki
page). The wedge bottoms out in the mortice, and then as you drive the
tenon home, it spreads itself on the wedge. So once in, its locked in
place.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 18/11/2018 16:25, wrote:
On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:36:39 PM UTC, NY wrote:
I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with front and
back legs on each side held from splaying out by a fore-and-aft cross-brace;
those two braces are themselves joined by a side-to-side brace. On one side,
the braces have come loose from the holes in the legs, making the chair
rickety. I tried gluing them with PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost
immediately (after letting it set for several hours).

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in case
I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a joint
where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another? I can
extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough play to
remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have to rely on
straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the brace, smearing
glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both ends) and then pushing it
back together.


I would get it all steam-damp with hot water and pull apart all the leg joints, then reassemble using traditional glue (which is plant based now not animal based). I'd use spanish windlasses to bind it together while the glue sets. Using old fashioned glue like this means that there is no need to get every last smidgeon of original glue out because it will be bound in when the new hot glue goes in.

But whatever glue you use, remember to have the chair standing on a good flat floor (or use a flat board if the chair is upside down) as you glue it so the four legs will touch the floor properly.


I'm interested in your remarks about traditional glue. I've been using
hot hide glue for decades now and - probably because I still have a
mountain of pearls in stock and haven't needed to buy any for ages - I
hadn't noticed that it's plant-based now.

What's it like to use? Does it have the same/similar properties as hide
glue eg, self-clamping and adhesive properties that vary according to
dilution? Does it keep as well or better? I know when not to reheat a
pot "one more time" and wondered if the vegetable glue gives off the
same sorts of clues about its condition.

Thanks,

Nick

On 18/11/18 15:47, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/11/2018 15:36, NY wrote:

I have a wooden chair with four legs that fit into the seat, with
front and back legs on each side held from splaying out by a
fore-and-aft cross-brace; those two braces are themselves joined by a
side-to-side brace. On one side, the braces have come loose from the
holes in the legs, making the chair rickety. I tried gluing them with
PVA glue but the glue joint broke almost immediately (after letting it
set for several hours).

The only glue that will cope with joints that are not snug fitting is
epoxy. PVA has not gap filling capacity.

I don't want to have to unglue and re-glue any of the other joints (in
case I make things worse). What is the best glue to use for sticking a
joint where one wooden piece fits into a hole in the side of another?
I can extract the cross-brace by about 10 mm, but there isn't enough
play to remove the brace totally to line the hole with glue, so I have
to rely on straining the joints to expose as much of the ends of the
brace, smearing glue around the exposed part of the brace (at both
ends) and then pushing it back together.

Disassembly, clean-up and re-gluing is probably the best approach.


Good advice, as is the epoxy. If you can, drill a small cross hole and
add a small pin/nail to hold while the epoxy sets. Drill from the
underside and it doesn't show. A couple of belts or rope will act as
clamps, if you don't have a proper clamp.

--


Smile for the camera ;-)
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Remarkable Coincidences:
The Stock Market Crashes of 1929 and 2008 happened on the same
date in October. In Oct 1907, a run on the Knickerbocker Trust
Company led to the Great Depression.

On 18/11/2018 22:15, Nick Odell wrote:

I'm interested in your remarks about traditional glue. I've been using
hot hide glue for decades now and - probably because I still have a
mountain of pearls in stock and haven't needed to buy any for ages - I
hadn't noticed that it's plant-based now.


Pearls! Wow that takes me back. My grandfather who died in the 1950's
had some in his workshop. My father was less of a carpenter, but I
remember him using it a few times in the 1960s. I can still recall the
smell!

I still have a large wooden plane that my grandfather was supposed to
have made, but I havn't used it for 30 years.