I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a
reference for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate
for higher or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering
if incorrect exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced
Ni-Cads now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable
Ni-MH cells or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:05:40 +0100, Nick Odell
wrote:

I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a
reference for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate
for higher or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering
if incorrect exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced
Ni-Cads now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable
Ni-MH cells or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicads as you surmise are lower Voltage 4.8 for a pack as opposed to 6

Flash units were often adorned with warnings about nicads being
unsuitable. Possibly because the current drawn is high leading to a
very short period of us for rechargeables. The additional problem may
be that the current being very high used the batteries internal
resistance to limit it to safe values. A nicad giving its full whack
of current is a lot more spectacular than an alkaline equivalent :-)

AB

On Thursday, 9 August 2018 03:05:43 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:

I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a
reference for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate
for higher or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering
if incorrect exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced
Ni-Cads now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable
Ni-MH cells or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

There are 2 problems with using NiCd or NiMH in this app.
1. Flash units often relied on the battery to limit charge current. Without that limit it dies.
2. Terminal voltage. Old cameras often shut down with most of the charge still in the battery if NiCd or NiMH are used. That's not a problem if you can use 5 rechargeables in lieu of 4 alkalines.

Presumably a suitable power resistor might solve 1, but I don't know of what value & haven't tried it.


NT

I think you need to find out what voltage its made to use. Normally using
nicad or the newer equivalent you end up with nominally 1.25v per cell, I
have noticed that some circuits simply indicate low battery if you shove
rechargeable into them.
Depends very much on the design.
Brian

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"Nick Odell" wrote in message
news
I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one for a
6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do not
use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a reference
for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate for higher
or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering if incorrect
exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced Ni-Cads
now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable Ni-MH cells
or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

Yes there is that. For example if its a film winding system. the jam which
occurs at the end is current limited on alkaline but on rechargeable it can
easily cause heating of motor and anything else.
Also of course as I said before they may see 4.8v as end of life for the
battery, in which case it just wont operate.

I had a Pentax that was like this. A cannon was not very fussy however.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 9 Aug 2018 03:05:40 +0100, Nick Odell
wrote:

I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a
reference for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate
for higher or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering
if incorrect exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced
Ni-Cads now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable
Ni-MH cells or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicads as you surmise are lower Voltage 4.8 for a pack as opposed to 6

Flash units were often adorned with warnings about nicads being
unsuitable. Possibly because the current drawn is high leading to a
very short period of us for rechargeables. The additional problem may
be that the current being very high used the batteries internal
resistance to limit it to safe values. A nicad giving its full whack
of current is a lot more spectacular than an alkaline equivalent :-)

AB

On Thursday, 9 August 2018 08:37:57 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes there is that. For example if its a film winding system. the jam which
occurs at the end is current limited on alkaline but on rechargeable it can
easily cause heating of motor and anything else.
Also of course as I said before they may see 4.8v as end of life for the
battery, in which case it just wont operate.

I had a Pentax that was like this. A cannon was not very fussy however.
Brian

Well I have an old canon winder that can go at 5FPS and takes 12 AA batteries
they supply a differnt holder for AA and ni-cds. The Alkaline holder has a label on it indicating that ni-cds can't be used.

Here in the lab we have a fujifinepix camera that can take 4 AA alkalines of Ni-MH cells but you need to indiocate what ones you;ve inserted by settign one of the menu options, which seems a bit primative for a digital camera....

On 09/08/18 08:37, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes there is that. For example if its a film winding system. the jam which
occurs at the end is current limited on alkaline but on rechargeable it can
easily cause heating of motor and anything else.
Also of course as I said before they may see 4.8v as end of life for the
battery, in which case it just wont operate.

I had a Pentax that was like this. A cannon was not very fussy however.
Brian

These cameras are Pentaxii (what's the plural of Pentax anyway?) and I
think the current limiting characteristic is probably spot on. One of
the cameras let out its magic smoke and as the camera was new to me, I
wasn't sure if it had just expired due to old age or due to my disregard
of the battery warning. Everything still works except the flash unit.
The eyepiece has smoked up - which makes it handy for taking pictures of
the sun, wouldn't you say?[1]

Nick
[1]Joke!

On 09/08/18 12:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 9 August 2018 08:37:57 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes there is that. For example if its a film winding system. the jam which
occurs at the end is current limited on alkaline but on rechargeable it can
easily cause heating of motor and anything else.
Also of course as I said before they may see 4.8v as end of life for the
battery, in which case it just wont operate.

I had a Pentax that was like this. A cannon was not very fussy however.
Brian

Well I have an old canon winder that can go at 5FPS and takes 12 AA batteries
they supply a differnt holder for AA and ni-cds. The Alkaline holder has a label on it indicating that ni-cds can't be used.

Here in the lab we have a fujifinepix camera that can take 4 AA alkalines of Ni-MH cells but you need to indiocate what ones you;ve inserted by settign one of the menu options, which seems a bit primative for a digital camera....

I've got a Finepix S-series camera like that. It might be a little bit
primitive but at least it doesn't a) fry the electrics when you try to
use it or b) shut down due to low voltage after five shots. Or a) and b).

Nick

On 09/08/18 08:16, wrote:
On Thursday, 9 August 2018 03:05:43 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:

I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

I'm familiar with the concept of a known voltage being used as a
reference for metering and shutter operation and can usually compensate
for higher or lower voltages in the ISO/ASA settings and I'm wondering
if incorrect exposures is the only reason I'm being warned off Ni-Cads?

Is there anything about the characteristic discharge of a Ni-Cad cell or
anything else about it that could damage the circuitry of a 1989 camera?
What about Ni-MH cells which have more-or-less completely replaced
Ni-Cads now? Would it be safe to use much more convenient rechargeable
Ni-MH cells or should I just stick with Lithium or alkaline?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Thanks,

Nick

There are 2 problems with using NiCd or NiMH in this app.
1. Flash units often relied on the battery to limit charge current. Without that limit it dies.
2. Terminal voltage. Old cameras often shut down with most of the charge still in the battery if NiCd or NiMH are used. That's not a problem if you can use 5 rechargeables in lieu of 4 alkalines.

Presumably a suitable power resistor might solve 1, but I don't know of what value & haven't tried it.


I could probably do that: there's plenty of room in the battery pack.
But I probably won't and will just keep some alkali cells in reserve in
case the Lithium battery pack runs down.

Supplementary question if I may: can I presume that rechargeable Li-on
are safe to use in this context or do they share the characteristics of
Ni-MH etc? As well as single-use 6v Lithium cells I've got some
rechargeable ones and it would be quite handy to use these in those cameras.

Thanks,

Nick

Nick Odell wrote:
Supplementary question if I may: can I presume that rechargeable Li-on
are safe to use in this context or do they share the characteristics of
Ni-MH etc? As well as single-use 6v Lithium cells I've got some
rechargeable ones and it would be quite handy to use these in those cameras.

You might get away with it with a couple of LiFePO4, nominal voltage 3.2v
per cell, max about 3.6v Lithium ion (nominal 3.6-3.7v, max 4.2v) would
likely be too low for one cell and too high for two.

If you're going to do that, get cells with integral protection, because the
camera could discharge them beyond a safe voltage (about 2.5v per cell).

They can give a lot of current, so if the application relies on the cells
self-limiting they might not be ideal.

Theo

On 09/08/18 19:43, Theo wrote:
Nick Odell wrote:
Supplementary question if I may: can I presume that rechargeable Li-on
are safe to use in this context or do they share the characteristics of
Ni-MH etc? As well as single-use 6v Lithium cells I've got some
rechargeable ones and it would be quite handy to use these in those cameras.

You might get away with it with a couple of LiFePO4, nominal voltage 3.2v
per cell, max about 3.6v Lithium ion (nominal 3.6-3.7v, max 4.2v) would
likely be too low for one cell and too high for two.

If you're going to do that, get cells with integral protection, because the
camera could discharge them beyond a safe voltage (about 2.5v per cell).

They can give a lot of current, so if the application relies on the cells
self-limiting they might not be ideal.



Thanks

The 6v cell is a 2CR5 and I've got some "protected" rechargeable 3v
Lithium ones (123???) To swing this onto a D-I-Y theme, I've been making
my own rechargeable 2CR5s by taking out the old cells from the battery
case and soldering in new contacts.

Good to know that they are (probably) safe to use in these cameras.

Nick

Nick Odell wrote:
Thanks

The 6v cell is a 2CR5 and I've got some "protected" rechargeable 3v
Lithium ones (123???) To swing this onto a D-I-Y theme, I've been making
my own rechargeable 2CR5s by taking out the old cells from the battery
case and soldering in new contacts.

Good to know that they are (probably) safe to use in these cameras.

The idea of a 3.0v lithium rechargeable puzzled me for a minute - LiFePO4
are 3.2v and lithium ion are 3.6v, so how do you get 3.0?

However it turns out that the 3.0v ones are 3.6v lithium ion with a series
diode to drop 0.7v. So I suppose that would work, if you don't mind wasting
20% of the energy...

Theo

On Thursday, 9 August 2018 19:23:08 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:
On 09/08/18 08:16, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 9 August 2018 03:05:43 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:

I have some cameras from 1989 which have alternative power packs: one
for a 6v Lithium cell and the other is for a set of 4 alkaline AA cells.

Printed inside the AA pack and in the instruction manual it reads "Do
not use Ni-Cad cells."

Supplementary question if I may: can I presume that rechargeable Li-on
are safe to use in this context or do they share the characteristics of
Ni-MH etc? As well as single-use 6v Lithium cells I've got some
rechargeable ones and it would be quite handy to use these in those cameras.

Thanks,

Nick

No & no. Lithium have very different characteristics to alkaline, NiCd and NiMH. Terminal voltage varies widely in use, starting much above nominal voltage.


NT

replying to Nick Odell, Nick Odell wrote:
Grovelling apologies for turning up under HomeOwnersHub: I was using Google to
search for this old thread and HomeOwnersHub is what it served me.

Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells. Of course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads are okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

Thanks,

Nick

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...h-1307091-.htm

On 09/10/18 19:44, Nick Odell wrote:
Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an
operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but
this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells. Of
course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads are
okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

yes. they are, excpet with respect to charging, interchangeable with NiCd.

But Id use a 3 cell lithium ion with that voltage




--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 09/10/18 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/10/18 19:44, Nick Odell wrote:
Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an
operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but
this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells. Of
course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads are
okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

yes. they are, excpet with respect to charging, interchangeable with NiCd.

But Id use a 3 cell lithium ion with that voltage




Thanks for that.

It's got eight slots -in two banks of four - for AA cells so I'd need
to perform some jiggery pokery to do that. Or use the socket for an
external power source which would reduce the portability even mo as
it is you need to do a course of weight training before you can lift the
blessed thing. (Bronica ETRS with all the bells and whistles)

Nick

On Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:44:07 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:
replying to Nick Odell, Nick Odell wrote:
Grovelling apologies for turning up under HomeOwnersHub: I was using Google to
search for this old thread and HomeOwnersHub is what it served me.

most won't see it

Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells. Of course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads are okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

Thanks,

Nick

yes usually. NiCd hung on for years due to ability to kick out more current, so if the cells are very hard pressed you might find NiMH feebler.

Charging is similar but not identical. A NiMH charger will keep them lasting longer than the old NiCd trickle charger, and charge faster


NT

On 10/10/18 01:11, Nick Odell wrote:
On 09/10/18 21:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/10/18 19:44, Nick Odell wrote:
Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an
operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but
this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells.
Of course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads
are okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

yes. they are, excpet with respect to charging, interchangeable with
NiCd.

But Id use a 3 cell lithium ion with that voltage




Thanks for that.

It's got eight slotsÂ* -in two banks of four - for AA cells so I'd need
to perform some jiggery pokery to do that. Or use the socket for an
external power source which would reduce the portability even mo as
it is you need to do a course of weight training before you can lift the
blessed thing. (Bronica ETRS with all the bells and whistles)

Nick
Oh well cheap and cheerful NiMh it is then


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On 10/10/18 03:03, wrote:
On Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:44:07 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:
replying to Nick Odell, Nick Odell wrote:
Grovelling apologies for turning up under HomeOwnersHub: I was using Google to
search for this old thread and HomeOwnersHub is what it served me.

most won't see it

Another piece of camera equipment: this time a motor drive with an operating
voltage range between 9-12v. Again it dates back to the eighties but this time
the manual specifically says to use either alkaline or NiCad cells. Of course
NiMh cells didn't exist in those days so I want to know: if NiCads are okay,
will NiMh cells do too?

Thanks,

Nick

yes usually. NiCd hung on for years due to ability to kick out more current, so if the cells are very hard pressed you might find NiMH feebler.

Charging is similar but not identical. A NiMH charger will keep them lasting longer than the old NiCd trickle charger, and charge faster



Thanks!

Nick
(Back on Eternal September now I've found the thread again)