I have previously helped a mate fix his domestic aircon unit but now
(some years later) it's stopped working completely. They got an aircon
engineer in who declared it as 'non repairable' so he's ordered a new
unit.

I think he confirmed the issue being 'needing re gassing (because of a
leak presumably) and it not being worth it.

Now, whilst I've examined / cleaned out a few different AC / fridge /
cooler units and compressor pumps I've not even repaired or re-gassed
anything so not sure what the deal is.

Like, I think I have seen these smaller / cheaper (~£650) units they
seem to be 'factory gassed' and the pipe seal off, rather than
re-gassable via a connector of some sort, as in most cars?

So, assuming this system was empty of gas, would it be possible to fit
it with a car gassing point ... as my mate has a car AC re gassing
unit?

Is the gas (or are the gasses) and lubricants used on cars the same as
those in domestic units?

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
I have previously helped a mate fix his domestic aircon unit but now
(some years later) it's stopped working completely. They got an aircon
engineer in who declared it as 'non repairable' so he's ordered a new
unit.

I think he confirmed the issue being 'needing re gassing (because of a
leak presumably) and it not being worth it.

Now, whilst I've examined / cleaned out a few different AC / fridge /
cooler units and compressor pumps I've not even repaired or re-gassed
anything so not sure what the deal is.

Like, I think I have seen these smaller / cheaper (~£650) units they
seem to be 'factory gassed' and the pipe seal off, rather than
re-gassable via a connector of some sort, as in most cars?

So, assuming this system was empty of gas, would it be possible to fit
it with a car gassing point ... as my mate has a car AC re gassing
unit?

Is the gas (or are the gasses) and lubricants used on cars the same as
those in domestic units?

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).

Cheers, T i m

It all depends on what is wrong - sorry blindingly obvious statement!
If it is just a leak in a pipe then it does rather depend on where and
how accessible the pipe is whether it can be economically repaired.
If the engineer has assessed it as having one actual leak but a whole
load of potentially leaks in waiting due to corrosion say, then
professionally he would be right to condemn it and fit new for a two
visit definite fix.
The compressor could be FUBAR and being a compact unit only the makers
bespoke unit would fit in and that could be made of unobtainium.

Or the engineer is giving a Foxtrot Oscar response as he does not want
to fix it and prefers only to fit new. Given the weather, he has
possibly more work than he can cope with and this is the quickest fix
for him?

Bob Minchin wrote:
T i m wrote:
I have previously helped a mate fix his domestic aircon unit but now
(some years later) it's stopped working completely. They got an aircon
engineer in who declared it as 'non repairable' so he's ordered a new
unit.

I think he confirmed the issue being 'needing re gassing (because of a
leak presumably) and it not being worth it.

Now, whilst I've examined / cleaned out a few different AC / fridge /
cooler units and compressor pumps I've not even repaired or re-gassed
anything so not sure what the deal is.

Like, I think I have seen these smaller / cheaper (~£650) units they
seem to be 'factory gassed' and the pipe seal off, rather than
re-gassable via a connector of some sort, as in most cars?

So, assuming this system was empty of gas, would it be possible to fit
it with a car gassing point ... as my mate has a car AC re gassing
unit?

Is the gas (or are the gasses) and lubricants used on cars the same as
those in domestic units?

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).

Cheers, T i m

It all depends on what is wrong - sorry blindingly obvious statement!
If it is just a leak in a pipe then it does rather depend on where and
how accessible the pipe is whether it can be economically repaired.
If the engineer has assessed it as having one actual leak but a whole
load of potentially leaks in waiting due to corrosion say, then
professionally he would be right to condemn it and fit new for a two
visit definite fix.
The compressor could be FUBAR and being a compact unit only the makers
bespoke unit would fit in and that could be made of unobtainium.

Or the engineer is giving a Foxtrot Oscar response as he does not want
to fix it and prefers only to fit new. Given the weather, he has
possibly more work than he can cope with and this is the quickest fix
for him?

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

On Monday, 6 August 2018 12:08:58 UTC+1, FMurtz wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
T i m wrote:

I have previously helped a mate fix his domestic aircon unit but now
(some years later) it's stopped working completely. They got an aircon
engineer in who declared it as 'non repairable' so he's ordered a new
unit.

I think he confirmed the issue being 'needing re gassing (because of a
leak presumably) and it not being worth it.

Now, whilst I've examined / cleaned out a few different AC / fridge /
cooler units and compressor pumps I've not even repaired or re-gassed
anything so not sure what the deal is.

Like, I think I have seen these smaller / cheaper (~£650) units they
seem to be 'factory gassed' and the pipe seal off, rather than
re-gassable via a connector of some sort, as in most cars?

So, assuming this system was empty of gas, would it be possible to fit
it with a car gassing point ... as my mate has a car AC re gassing
unit?

Is the gas (or are the gasses) and lubricants used on cars the same as
those in domestic units?

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).

Cheers, T i m

It all depends on what is wrong - sorry blindingly obvious statement!
If it is just a leak in a pipe then it does rather depend on where and
how accessible the pipe is whether it can be economically repaired.
If the engineer has assessed it as having one actual leak but a whole
load of potentially leaks in waiting due to corrosion say, then
professionally he would be right to condemn it and fit new for a two
visit definite fix.
The compressor could be FUBAR and being a compact unit only the makers
bespoke unit would fit in and that could be made of unobtainium.

Or the engineer is giving a Foxtrot Oscar response as he does not want
to fix it and prefers only to fit new. Given the weather, he has
possibly more work than he can cope with and this is the quickest fix
for him?

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

though there are older ones that ran on R12 then in the 90s some intermediates.


NT

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 11:13:53 +0100, Bob Minchin
wrote:

snip

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).


It all depends on what is wrong - sorry blindingly obvious statement!

;-)

If it is just a leak in a pipe then it does rather depend on where and
how accessible the pipe is whether it can be economically repaired.

Agreed, I suspect only likely in flexible hose (and it's couplings) or
rigid pipe at a fatigue point or joint?

If the engineer has assessed it as having one actual leak but a whole
load of potentially leaks in waiting due to corrosion say, then
professionally he would be right to condemn it and fit new for a two
visit definite fix.

Understood.

The compressor could be FUBAR and being a compact unit only the makers
bespoke unit would fit in and that could be made of unobtainium.

Check.

Or the engineer is giving a Foxtrot Oscar response as he does not want
to fix it and prefers only to fit new.

Possibly, given it was a 'cheap' (as these things go) unit.

Given the weather, he has
possibly more work than he can cope with and this is the quickest fix
for him?

Again, perfectly possible and I'll further question my mate if he can
remember exactly what the guy did and said.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:
snip

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).



Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.

Good result. And did you do anything else, other than the re-gassing?

Didn't I read that the supposedly 'better' gasses have smaller
molecules so more likely to be lost via migration though the hoses
etc?

I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Handy. ;-)

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

So, could these gasses all be used interchangeably for a given AC
solution or are they typically designed (functionally) for one gas or
another?

Would it be possible (conceptually) to fit a 'sealed' AC system with
the port(s) used on typical car systems (eBay / breakers) and fill the
system with the gas currently used in vehicle AC units or are they too
different for some reason?

The idea is once re-gassed I can check for leaks (assuming it tests as
ok in the first place)?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
Agreed, I suspect only likely in flexible hose (and it's couplings) or
rigid pipe at a fatigue point or joint?
A vast proportion of the pipe will be surrounded by fins and folded back
on itself. If this has failed with a pinhole, the replacemetn might well
also be unobtainable.

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 19:23:26 +0100, Bob Minchin
wrote:

T i m wrote:
Agreed, I suspect only likely in flexible hose (and it's couplings) or
rigid pipe at a fatigue point or joint?

A vast proportion of the pipe will be surrounded by fins and folded back
on itself. If this has failed with a pinhole, the replacemetn might well
also be unobtainable.

True, but might it be repairable?

If the pipe was copper and it was just a pinhole in one place,
couldn't the fins be moved away in that location and the hole say
soldered over?

Or if ally, the hole covered with a metal epoxy?

As I said, I think the first task (after getting the unit) would be
seeing if it was possible to gas up somehow and then look to see where
any leaks were. Obviously, if there were any obvious signs of
corrosion in 'bad places' I may not bother with the re-gassing.

If I could inject 'a' gas (like town gas or acetylene) somehow that
could be mechanically sniffed, that might be easier as long as it
didn't affect anything negatively?


Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 19:54:34 +0100, T i m wrote:

As I said, I think the first task (after getting the unit) would be
seeing if it was possible to gas up somehow and then look to see where
any leaks were.

UV dye is often used for this. A google for "air conditioning uv dye"
will turn up a few hits.

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 23:17:33 +0100, Caecilius
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 19:54:34 +0100, T i m wrote:

As I said, I think the first task (after getting the unit) would be
seeing if it was possible to gas up somehow and then look to see where
any leaks were.

UV dye is often used for this. A google for "air conditioning uv dye"
will turn up a few hits.

Yes, I already have some from when I did the car and it can work well,
especially if that was the only leak and it was big enough to get
enough of the dye in one place.

In the end we actually pinned the leak down with an electronic
'sniffer' and it was in the middle of the AC condenser / rad, caused
by what looked like the remains of a big bug. ;-(

If I knew what sort of pressure these things run at I was wondering if
I could just pump it up with air and see if it loses any pressure,
before wasting refrigerant gas on it?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 23:37:03 +0100, T i m wrote:

If I knew what sort of pressure these things run at I was wondering if
I could just pump it up with air and see if it loses any pressure,
before wasting refrigerant gas on it?

I think you need to be careful not to introduce moisture, so
compressed air is probably a bad idea.

I think air con shops pull a vaccum to get rid of old refrigerant and
moisture. If you can get hold of a suitable vacuum pump, pulling a
vacuum and seeing whether it holds might be a decent test for leaks.

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 23:48:41 +0100, Caecilius
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 23:37:03 +0100, T i m wrote:

If I knew what sort of pressure these things run at I was wondering if
I could just pump it up with air and see if it loses any pressure,
before wasting refrigerant gas on it?

I think you need to be careful not to introduce moisture, so
compressed air is probably a bad idea.

Noted, thanks.

I think air con shops pull a vaccum to get rid of old refrigerant and
moisture.

If there is a leak and you pull a vacuum, wouldn't you be dragging
ordinary moisture carrying air into the system anyway?

If you can get hold of a suitable vacuum pump, pulling a
vacuum and seeing whether it holds might be a decent test for leaks.

As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges). I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training. They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old. The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Theo

Theo Wrote in message:
T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges). I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training. They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old. The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Theo


Given that the Chinese are still spewing out banned CFCs in
industrial quantities, will venting one Aircon unit make any
difference? ;-)

Tim
--

On 07/08/2018 14:24, Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges). I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training. They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old. The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Theo


The problem with hot and humid places is that the aluminium-based
components like cooling fins on the evaporators, just rot away.

You need to spend some time in a coastal, tropical area to see
how quickly stuff is affected by sun, rain and salt.

On Tuesday, 7 August 2018 15:16:20 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 07/08/2018 14:24, Theo wrote:
T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges). I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training. They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old. The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Theo


The problem with hot and humid places is that the aluminium-based
components like cooling fins on the evaporators, just rot away.

You need to spend some time in a coastal, tropical area to see
how quickly stuff is affected by sun, rain and salt.

There was something on the news about a nuclear power station reducing generating capacity as the water from the local river was warmner so could be used as effecintly to cool it down.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN1KF2CO

On 07 Aug 2018 14:24:10 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges).

That was my thought Theo.

I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training.

Quite.

They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old.

;-)

The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

Understood.

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Nothing, hence the question here, but it was the 'means' by which I
could get a mate with a std car re-gas rig to re-gas this potentially
'sealed' system for / with me?

I know he would be more than happy to hook his machine onto any std
(car) AC coupling for me and do what needs to be done but how would
get to that position?

Like, first I need to obtain a connector that matches his machine
(breakers or aircon gas suppliers?) and then, assuming the broken
system is already deplete of gas, fit a matching connector and ask him
to re-gas it for me (or at let it run the diagnostics and see if it
will be willing to)? Maybe the original filling point would be obvious
(a sealed off pipe stub) and that would be the place to fit said
connector?

So, I was looking for some practical pointers from someone who may
actually know (from a personal experience POV) some aspects of all
this?

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 14:44:06 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Tim+
wrote:

snip

Given that the Chinese are still spewing out banned CFCs in
industrial quantities, will venting one Aircon unit make any
difference? ;-)

And that horse may have already bolted in any case? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 15:16:15 +0100, Andrew
wrote:

snip

The problem with hot and humid places is that the aluminium-based
components like cooling fins on the evaporators, just rot away.

Understood.

You need to spend some time in a coastal, tropical area to see
how quickly stuff is affected by sun, rain and salt.

I had exposure to one instance, an oil terminal on the coast somewhere
(in the UK, I was there doing Datacomms stuff).

Because the site was so big they used to keep some very basic spec
cars just sitting around that you could jump in and drive to another
part of the site and leave the car there (for someone else to take).

I think they said they typically only lasted a couple of years before
they rotted away, often with only a few thousand miles on the clock.
;-(

Out second hand Seahopper (folding boat) had been used in the sea and
even the brass fittings were showing signs of corrosion (and it wasn't
a boat you would typically leave afloat).

Cheers, T i m

On Tuesday, 7 August 2018 23:12:47 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 14:44:06 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Tim+
wrote:

snip

Given that the Chinese are still spewing out banned CFCs in
industrial quantities, will venting one Aircon unit make any
difference? ;-)

And that horse may have already bolted in any case? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

only some refrigerants are banned from release to the atmosphere. Butane & propane aren't.


NT

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 20:07:06 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 7 August 2018 23:12:47 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 7 Aug 2018 14:44:06 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Tim+
wrote:

snip

Given that the Chinese are still spewing out banned CFCs in
industrial quantities, will venting one Aircon unit make any
difference? ;-)

And that horse may have already bolted in any case? ;-(


only some refrigerants are banned from release to the atmosphere. Butane & propane aren't.


Interesting, thanks.

I'll check what gas my mate in the garage has on his auto AC service
rig (OOI).

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?

Cheers, T i m

T i m Wrote in message:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?

Cheers, T i m


Different physical characteristics? The system will be designed
around the refrigerant's boiling point I would imagine. Adjusting
the system pressure will move this up or down I suppose. There
may well be other factors.

I don't think you can swap refrigerants willy nilly. Having said
that, I bet it gets done all the time in third world countries.
;-)

Tim
--

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:23:25 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Tim+
wrote:

T i m Wrote in message:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?


Different physical characteristics?

Yeah. I did look briefly at the list on Wiki but I'm no chemist so the
nuances of each wasn't obvious.

The system will be designed
around the refrigerant's boiling point I would imagine. Adjusting
the system pressure will move this up or down I suppose. There
may well be other factors.

Agreed.

I don't think you can swap refrigerants willy nilly.

Well, that's the thing. I wasn't sure if there were obviously
technical reasons (pressures, chemicals affecting seals etc) over say
simple cooling efficiencies.

Having said
that, I bet it gets done all the time in third world countries.
;-)

And that's the thing. It's quite possible that my mates machine could
take R-410A and a bottle of that could be much cheaper than buying a
new AC unit, assuming we get a reasonable life out of one charge etc.

That may depend on what the fault is, or even if there is a fault at
all. eg, I think some of the newer / ozone friendly gasses have
smaller molecule sizes and can migrate through the hoses (not
suggesting this is one etc).

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:
snip

Obviously, if I could get it re-gassed I could use my mates sniffer to
find any leak and potentially repair it (compressor seal?).

If I tried any of this it would mostly be for the S&G's but if it did
turn out to be viable (from a d-i-y POV) I could actually make use of
it here (It's one of those slimline wall mounted units with a
concentric port (like a balanced flue) that goes though the wall,
along with a small water drain pipe).



Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.

Good result. And did you do anything else, other than the re-gassing?

No I did not even replace the drier just held vacuum for longer
(hydrocarbons are more forgiving of moisture)


Didn't I read that the supposedly 'better' gasses have smaller
molecules so more likely to be lost via migration though the hoses
etc?

I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Handy. ;-)

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

So, could these gasses all be used interchangeably for a given AC
solution or are they typically designed (functionally) for one gas or
another?

Would it be possible (conceptually) to fit a 'sealed' AC system with
the port(s) used on typical car systems (eBay / breakers) and fill the
system with the gas currently used in vehicle AC units or are they too
different for some reason?

If there is not provision you can silver solder one in the line

The idea is once re-gassed I can check for leaks (assuming it tests as
ok in the first place)?
Yes but different testers sometimes (you can put stuff in refrigerant
that shows up under ultra violet if there is a leak.

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?
Something called R32 apparently is a replacement

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?

Probably not although as an aside , A mixture of propane and isobutane
is a replacement for 134a.
the thing is in Australia and probably UK refrigerant gasses are
controlled but hydrocarbon gasses in the main are not, one state tries
to control them in air cons

Cheers, T i m

Tim+ wrote:
T i m Wrote in message:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?

Cheers, T i m


Different physical characteristics? The system will be designed
around the refrigerant's boiling point I would imagine. Adjusting
the system pressure will move this up or down I suppose. There
may well be other factors.

I don't think you can swap refrigerants willy nilly. Having said
that, I bet it gets done all the time in third world countries.
;-)

There is loads of info on the net just research hydrocarbon refrigerants
and try to steer clear of the naysayers and fear mongers who usually
have a vested interest.
Fort instance they say they are flamable, just consider that a car air
con would contain about 300 or so grams of hydrocarbon in a closed
circuit and an lpg driven vehicle has 80 litres of LPG or more in the boot

Tim

T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 09:23:25 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Tim+
wrote:

T i m Wrote in message:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:08:42 +1000, FMurtz wrote:

snip

Depends on many things, one being the type of refrigerant I have two
second hand split units which used R22. I gassed both with R290
(propane)both have been running successfully for five years since.
I do have the equipment, compatible oil, (vac pump gauges etc).

Research hydrocarbon refrigerants.take the naysayers with a grain of
salt.almost all the small fridges sold up to recently and coke and pepsi
machines run on Butane, (R600a).

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?


Different physical characteristics?

Yeah. I did look briefly at the list on Wiki but I'm no chemist so the
nuances of each wasn't obvious.

The system will be designed
around the refrigerant's boiling point I would imagine. Adjusting
the system pressure will move this up or down I suppose. There
may well be other factors.

Agreed.

I don't think you can swap refrigerants willy nilly.

Well, that's the thing. I wasn't sure if there were obviously
technical reasons (pressures, chemicals affecting seals etc) over say
simple cooling efficiencies.

Having said
that, I bet it gets done all the time in third world countries.
;-)

And that's the thing. It's quite possible that my mates machine could
take R-410A and a bottle of that could be much cheaper than buying a
new AC unit, assuming we get a reasonable life out of one charge etc.

The problem is that without a license or trade certificate most
refrigerants are unobtainable but hydrocarbons are.


That may depend on what the fault is, or even if there is a fault at
all. eg, I think some of the newer / ozone friendly gasses have
smaller molecule sizes and can migrate through the hoses (not
suggesting this is one etc).

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Mon, 6 Aug 2018 19:23:26 +0100, Bob Minchin
wrote:

T i m wrote:
Agreed, I suspect only likely in flexible hose (and it's couplings) or
rigid pipe at a fatigue point or joint?

A vast proportion of the pipe will be surrounded by fins and folded back
on itself. If this has failed with a pinhole, the replacemetn might well
also be unobtainable.

True, but might it be repairable?

If the pipe was copper and it was just a pinhole in one place,
couldn't the fins be moved away in that location and the hole say
soldered over?

Or if ally, the hole covered with a metal epoxy?

Yes and there is even a soft fairly easily used aluminium solder
We have blokes at various markets welding holes in coke cans as a demo.

As I said, I think the first task (after getting the unit) would be
seeing if it was possible to gas up somehow and then look to see where
any leaks were. Obviously, if there were any obvious signs of
corrosion in 'bad places' I may not bother with the re-gassing.

If I could inject 'a' gas (like town gas or acetylene) somehow that
could be mechanically sniffed, that might be easier as long as it
didn't affect anything negatively?


Cheers, T i m

Tim+ wrote:
Theo Wrote in message:
T i m wrote:
As mentioned I have a garage owning mate who has an AC rig so that bit
may not be a problem, *once* I have fitted the suitable 'car' AC port
to the domestic AC unit?

In places rather hotter than here, with rather less ready cash, pretty much
any AC unit is refurbishable (likewise fridges). I don't know exactly what
they do, but I assume it's similar kinds of regassing to cars - the people
don't have any high technology or great training. They certainly aren't
relying on factory gas, because some of these things are 40 years old. The
piping is mostly copper so it's straightforward to braze. (however, the
units might be a bit more heavy duty than ours, owing to having to work
rather harder all day long)

If it's been condemned, and you have someone who has the kit and knows what
to do (ie how not to vent the gas to atmosphere), what do you have to lose?

Theo


Given that the Chinese are still spewing out banned CFCs in
industrial quantities, will venting one Aircon unit make any
difference? ;-)

Tim

The case in Australia is that any technician that does not reclaim R134a
and vents it is up for a huge fine but I can buy a can to blow the dust
out of my computer that contains 134a from electronic shops and elsewhere
It was even used in past times as a propellant in puffers.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 12:36:28 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

Good result. And did you do anything else, other than the re-gassing?

No I did not even replace the drier just held vacuum for longer
(hydrocarbons are more forgiving of moisture)

Ok, thanks.


snip

Would it be possible (conceptually) to fit a 'sealed' AC system with
the port(s) used on typical car systems (eBay / breakers) and fill the
system with the gas currently used in vehicle AC units or are they too
different for some reason?

If there is not provision you can silver solder one in the line

So, I'm guessing I would do so where it should be obvious it was
gassed in the first place (I have the unit now but not had the time to
strip it down to check for such things).

OOI, on my mates car a/c machine it has an interface that looks like a
slightly bigger 'Euro' airline connector?

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 12:56:54 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

And that's the thing. It's quite possible that my mates machine could
take R-410A and a bottle of that could be much cheaper than buying a
new AC unit, assuming we get a reasonable life out of one charge etc.

The problem is that without a license or trade certificate most
refrigerants are unobtainable but hydrocarbons are.

Sorry, you have lost me there mate. Are you saying *I* can (probably?)
buy 'hydrocarbon' gasses that will probably work in my a/c unit as a
refrigerant (easier than the refrigerant that was originally in
there)?

Is this a matter of 're-gas it with something that works, rather than
the idea that could work better but would be more complicated
(officially especially) to do?

I'm a complete a/c novice trying to get the bigger picture here. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 12:47:23 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

I have the old domestic AC unit now and apparently it takes 500ml of
R-410A (Puron?) that I believe is an HFC and runs at a higher pressure
than older systems (but what pressure)?
Something called R32 apparently is a replacement

Mates car AC auto unit uses R-134A so whilst a different gas, would it
be compatible? What would stop it being compatible?

Probably not although as an aside , A mixture of propane and isobutane
is a replacement for 134a.

Ok ...

the thing is in Australia and probably UK refrigerant gasses are
controlled

So are these 'CFC's' in the main?

but hydrocarbon gasses in the main are not,

Ok.

If I understand it correctly, the early gasses screw the ozone layer
and whilst the later ones don't so much (?), they can be worse for
global warming in general (and because some have smaller molecules,
can permeate hoses and so leak easier)? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 13:00:03 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

Or if ally, the hole covered with a metal epoxy?

Yes and there is even a soft fairly easily used aluminium solder
We have blokes at various markets welding holes in coke cans as a demo.

Sounds like 'Lumiweld', something I bought at a show years ago and
have used to good effect. ;-)

Googles

It's still out there it seems. ;-)

https://www.frost.co.uk/lumiweld-kits.html

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote:
On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 12:56:54 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

And that's the thing. It's quite possible that my mates machine could
take R-410A and a bottle of that could be much cheaper than buying a
new AC unit, assuming we get a reasonable life out of one charge etc.

The problem is that without a license or trade certificate most
refrigerants are unobtainable but hydrocarbons are.

Sorry, you have lost me there mate. Are you saying *I* can (probably?)
buy 'hydrocarbon' gasses that will probably work in my a/c unit as a
refrigerant (easier than the refrigerant that was originally in
there)?

If the UK is anything like here refrigeration is a closed family and
anyone outside can not buy most refrigerants but anyone can buy
hydrocarbons so if you want to DIY you are limited

Is this a matter of 're-gas it with something that works, rather than
the idea that could work better but would be more complicated
(officially especially) to do?

Yes as non trade people are prohibited from using other than hydrocarbons

I'm a complete a/c novice trying to get the bigger picture here. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 22:59:35 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

Sorry, you have lost me there mate. Are you saying *I* can (probably?)
buy 'hydrocarbon' gasses that will probably work in my a/c unit as a
refrigerant (easier than the refrigerant that was originally in
there)?

If the UK is anything like here refrigeration is a closed family and
anyone outside can not buy most refrigerants but anyone can buy
hydrocarbons so if you want to DIY you are limited

Given my mate is in the garage trade I'm not sure yet if he might be
able to access some gases under that role alone (him being 'Trade'
rather than 'public', even though not in the aircon trade as such).

Is this a matter of 're-gas it with something that works, rather than
the idea that could work better but would be more complicated
(officially especially) to do?

Yes as non trade people are prohibited from using other than hydrocarbons

Ok (thanks) I'll have to look into what 'hydrocarbons' might replace
what was in there originally and how I would get them into it.).

Maybe if it is already deplete of gas and I can fit a 'standard' port
to it (if there is such a thing), a real a/c pro might then be willing
to check it out for me?

At ~800 quid new I'd like to think it wasn't considered disposable?
;-(

Cheers, T i m

In article , T i m
writes
On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 22:59:35 +1000, FMurtz
wrote:

snip

Sorry, you have lost me there mate. Are you saying *I* can (probably?)
buy 'hydrocarbon' gasses that will probably work in my a/c unit as a
refrigerant (easier than the refrigerant that was originally in
there)?

If the UK is anything like here refrigeration is a closed family and
anyone outside can not buy most refrigerants but anyone can buy
hydrocarbons so if you want to DIY you are limited

Given my mate is in the garage trade I'm not sure yet if he might be
able to access some gases under that role alone (him being 'Trade'
rather than 'public', even though not in the aircon trade as such).

Is this a matter of 're-gas it with something that works, rather than
the idea that could work better but would be more complicated
(officially especially) to do?

Yes as non trade people are prohibited from using other than hydrocarbons

Ok (thanks) I'll have to look into what 'hydrocarbons' might replace
what was in there originally and how I would get them into it.).

Maybe if it is already deplete of gas and I can fit a 'standard' port
to it (if there is such a thing), a real a/c pro might then be willing
to check it out for me?

A real pro will fit a port for you if necessary and gas it with the
correct refrigerant - mine did. As it happened it was the same refrig as
used in some car air-con.
At ~800 quid new I'd like to think it wasn't considered disposable?
;-(

Cheers, T i m


--
bert

There are a host of split system videos to be found on you tube. Many of the current precharged compressor units have schrader valve connection points built into the isolation valves. A hvac gauge manifold kit can be used to check pressures. Closing off the isolation valves will permit pressure testing of the evaporator unit. Normally dry nitrogen is used to purge and test at first intallation. Once proved to be sound the pipework and evaporator unit are evacuated with a high vacuum pump.

There's a basic outline of the installation of a Merikan split system here https://youtu.be/DzVJiSQNbew
Of course the problem you have may be corrosion/damage to the compressor unit or the heat exchanger in the evaporator.
Either would require recovery of the refrigerant. You can get an economical refrigerant gas sniffer for not much money from eBay if you suspect a leak in one of the heat exchanger units.
Refrigerant gas is expensive stuff so you may find renewal is a more cost effective solution. Around £500 can buy a brand new 3kW split system via an eBay shop. HVAC quality 1/4" and 3/8" copper tube is available from a number of suppliers such as BES if required..
You'll need a pro with dry nitrogen, gauges and vacuum pump.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 14:57:20 +0100, bert wrote:

snip

Maybe if it is already deplete of gas and I can fit a 'standard' port
to it (if there is such a thing), a real a/c pro might then be willing
to check it out for me?

A real pro will fit a port for you if necessary and gas it with the
correct refrigerant - mine did.

Can you remember how much that cost OOI?

As it happened it was the same refrig as
used in some car air-con.

Do you know if that was what was in there in the beginning or just
that's what he used?

If it was as easy as that, I wonder why the guy they paid to come
round and do just that, didn't? (I did ask mate if he could remember
*why* hit wasn't repaired and I think he just said that the guy said
'it wasn't repairable ... eg it was a disposable unit?).


Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 09:32:00 -0700 (PDT), Cynic
wrote:

There are a host of split system videos to be found on you tube.

This isn't a split system as such, it's an all-in-one with an in and
out port on the back (effectively accessing what would be the external
unit).

Many of the current precharged compressor units have schrader valve connection points built into the isolation valves.

I've seen such on my mates car A/C service machine.

A hvac gauge manifold kit can be used to check pressures.

Ok.

Closing off the isolation valves will permit pressure testing of the evaporator unit.

This is where I think the problems will start as I believe this unit
is more like domestic fridges and freezers where they are charged and
then the charging pipe folded back and crimped off.

Normally dry nitrogen is used to purge and test at first intallation.

Ok.

Once proved to be sound the pipework and evaporator unit are evacuated with a high vacuum pump.

Understood (I believe mates car system does that also).

There's a basic outline of the installation of a Merikan split system here https://youtu.be/DzVJiSQNbew

Cheers.

Of course the problem you have may be corrosion/damage to the compressor unit or the heat exchanger in the evaporator.

Quite, something I may not find out till I get it tested.

Either would require recovery of the refrigerant.

Assuming it hasn't already all gone?

You can get an economical refrigerant gas sniffer for not much money from eBay if you suspect a leak in one of the heat exchanger units.

Car mate has one for car use and if it can also sniff the gas in my
domestic unit (assuming there is any left) then that could be handy?

Refrigerant gas is expensive stuff so you may find renewal is a more cost effective solution.

Ok.

Around £500 can buy a brand new 3kW split system via an eBay shop.

I already have a std split unit in one of the bedrooms but this was
fir use where an outside unit wasn't possible. I can buy a new one for
£800 and I still might, if I can't get this one running.

HVAC quality 1/4" and 3/8" copper tube is available from a number of suppliers such as BES if required.

Interesting to know, thanks.

You'll need a pro with dry nitrogen, gauges and vacuum pump.

I'm sure mates system has the last two. ;-)

I also know the unit should take 500ml of R410A but not at what
pressure?

Thanks for the feedback.

Cheers, T i m