Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Cheers,

Tim

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

Most small UPS's are designed with an up time of about 10 minutes at
full load, ie long enough to see if the power comes back ina minute
or two and long enough for things to shutdown nicely if it doesn't.
So your looking at a 1500 VA unit.

Also be aware that UPS's are far more sensitive to overload than the
mains. Switching on a CRT monitor did't bother the mains but the UPS
would instantly shutdown.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking
batteries it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of
batteries in 3 to 4 years. Charge rate far too high for the
temperature of the batteries. In March 2014 I fitted a fan, reduced
the charge rate and replaced the batteries., That set of batteries
are still working fine. The cheapo PC slot exhaust fan has just
needed to be replaced but that's only a fiver versus £50 ish for a
new set of batteries...

Battery cooking is a well known trait of APC UPS's, so unless you
willing to dive in and mod your new UPS or can find real evidence
that a given model doesn't cook the batteries I'd avoid APC.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Tim Watts wrote

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days?

Depends on what you call good.

Looking for about 500VA (need to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30
mins runtime.

Why do you need that long ?

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Depends on what you call good, particularly
how well it lasts over time.

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Thats mad. Everything just rectifys that.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking
batteries it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of
batteries in 3 to 4 years. Charge rate far too high for the
temperature of the batteries.

I replaced the batteries in my SU2200 three years ago, and they've held
up since, I did check it wasn't overvolting them.

Looking at the UPS internal (43°C) and external (32°C) temperatures for
the last few weeks, I suspect it doesn't de-rate the charge voltage for
temperature as it's been locked at 54.05V

Yuasa seem to suggest decreasing float voltage by 3mV for every degree
above 20°C

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:19:52 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

Tim Watts wrote

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days?

Depends on what you call good.

He SAID it, idjit!

Looking for about 500VA (need to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30
mins runtime.

Why do you need that long ?

IOW, you got no answer to his question! So shut the **** up, you pesky Ozzie
bluebottle!

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Depends on what you call good, particularly
how well it lasts over time.

He SAID it, idjit!

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

That¢s mad.

Oh, the IRONY again! VBG

--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID:

On 27/07/18 10:00, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

Most small UPS's are designed with an up time of about 10 minutes at
full load, ie long enough to see if the power comes back ina minute
or two and long enough for things to shutdown nicely if it doesn't.
So your looking at a 1500 VA unit.

OK Thanks - I must get a power measurement before I work out the
actual spec (500VA is a wild guess, I suspect it may be a good bit less).


Also be aware that UPS's are far more sensitive to overload than the
mains. Switching on a CRT monitor did't bother the mains but the UPS
would instantly shutdown.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking

I've heard of the battery cooking problem. Didn't know there was a
setting to solve it though.

batteries it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of
batteries in 3 to 4 years. Charge rate far too high for the
temperature of the batteries. In March 2014 I fitted a fan, reduced
the charge rate and replaced the batteries., That set of batteries
are still working fine. The cheapo PC slot exhaust fan has just
needed to be replaced but that's only a fiver versus £50 ish for a
new set of batteries...

Although mods like this are what I'm trying to avoid - and are putting
me off APC a tad.


Battery cooking is a well known trait of APC UPS's, so unless you
willing to dive in and mod your new UPS or can find real evidence
that a given model doesn't cook the batteries I'd avoid APC.


OK - I guess Eaton MEM is the next "well known" one to look at?

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:00:32 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

Most small UPS's are designed with an up time of about 10 minutes at
full load, ie long enough to see if the power comes back ina minute or
two and long enough for things to shutdown nicely if it doesn't. So your
looking at a 1500 VA unit.

Also be aware that UPS's are far more sensitive to overload than the
mains. Switching on a CRT monitor did't bother the mains but the UPS
would instantly shutdown.

Switching on a 19 inch CRT colour monitor whilst powering a 300W load (a
desktop and server box fed via an Upsonic600 - I'm not *that* stupid!)
didn't disturb my venerable SmartUPS2000 in the slightest despite the
brief 20 or so amps degaussing transient "CLANG!!!" from the monitor. :-)


But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking batteries
it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of batteries in 3 to
4 years. Charge rate far too high for the temperature of the batteries.
In March 2014 I fitted a fan, reduced the charge rate and replaced the
batteries., That set of batteries are still working fine. The cheapo PC
slot exhaust fan has just needed to be replaced but that's only a fiver
versus £50 ish for a new set of batteries...

Battery cooking is a well known trait of APC UPS's, so unless you
willing to dive in and mod your new UPS or can find real evidence that a
given model doesn't cook the batteries I'd avoid APC.

The more recent (less than 20 years old) APC SmartUPS series can be
configured via their serial/USB interface to float charge at less than
the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting, allowing you to chose a less
corrosive 2.25v per cell (13.5v per 12v SLA) setting. I'm not sure, but I
think even that ancient SmartUPS2000 of mine originally had such
provision (I could look at but I could not touch any of the settings for
some undetermined reason).

Luckily the VR4 pot allowed me to adjust the 55.5v setting (it had
drifted up from my original 55.2v setting) down to 54.0v to save a
recently acquired set of four 7AH SLAs bought cheap from my local Alarm
company (I know the proprietor from our computer club days) from a
premature demise.

The original capacity spec was for 17AH SLAs but I was recommissioning
this UPS on the cheap to test the PGI 1200 B2 Parkside inverter genset's
immunity from the leading current induced overvolting defect common to
standard generators that use the raw output from a single phase 50Hz
alternator driven at a notionally steadyish 3,000rpm with AVR control of
the rotor field winding magnetisation current[2].

A significant downside with that SmartUPS700 is the 20 watts standby
consumption *after* its battery pack has fully recharged and drawing mere
micro-amps of charging current. At 15p a unit, that's about 26 quid a
year. I retired it in favour of a BackUPS500 (quasi-sine wave 500VA/350W
rated single 7AH SLA unit with a 2.7W standby consumption) which floats
its battery at 13.49v in standby but raises this to 14v when plugged in
and switched off - no wonder the battery lasts so long! It's only ever
plugged in and switched off for a few hours after a battery change in
order to quickly put a refreshing charge back into the battery. :-)

[1] This rather corrosive float charging voltage is chosen as the default
merely to claim an extra 5 to 10% or so autonomy out of a brand new set
of batteries (for the first 12 to 18 months at least) by way of 'Bragging
Rights'.

It's not just APC who are guilty of this, all the manufacturers use this
trick (at least in the case of SoHo kit). You'd do well to RTFM and
adjust the float voltage down to the 2.25v per cell mark. It might
curtail the autonomy by 5 or 10% over that of a not yet fried battery
pack but it'll pay dividends some 3 or 4 years down the line when you can
expect to see at least another two or three years of life out of your
'consumable'.

[2] Your old fashioned emergency/work/leisure petrol generator is
becoming more and more of a liability than an asset with modern lighting
and other electronic loads now being far more prevalent than in those
long distant days of incandescent lighting and electronic valved (vacuum
tubed) radios and monochrome TV sets and suchlike.

It doesn't surprise me too much to see the likes of Lidl selling 1KW
rated inverter gensets for a mere 99 or 129 quid each (the later PGI 1200
B2 and its predecessor, the PGI 1200 A1 respectively).

Having recently tried three examples of Aldi's 2000W Workzone inverter
gensets (at 290 quid a pop - about a 100 quid or so cheaper than other
similar commodity inverter gensets), I can honestly say that these are
absolutely ****e and not worth wasting any time or money on.

--
Johnny B Good

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:20:12 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking batteries
it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of batteries in 3
to 4 years. Charge rate far too high for the temperature of the
batteries.

I replaced the batteries in my SU2200 three years ago, and they've held
up since, I did check it wasn't overvolting them.

Looking at the UPS internal (43°C) and external (32°C) temperatures for
the last few weeks, I suspect it doesn't de-rate the charge voltage for
temperature as it's been locked at 54.05V

Yuasa seem to suggest decreasing float voltage by 3mV for every degree
above 20°C

In my case (literally I suppose!), that's never been an issue with my
ancient SmartUPS2000 since I'd acquired it 2nd hand at a radioham rally
about twenty years ago sans the battery box it would normally have been
clipped onto the top of. As a consequence, I've always used an external
battery pack in an environment (my basement) where the ambient rarely
exceeds 20 deg C (and rarely drops lower than 8 deg C).

Despite this lack of battery exposure to extremes of temperature, I've
still suffered indecently short lives out of what the UPS manufacturers
glibly refer to as a 'Consumable'. 'Consumable' my arse! However, for
many years I'd had the float voltage set to 55.2v (which had drifted up
to 55.5v by the time I decided to sacrifice another set of 'consumables'
to APC's altar just recently) in the mistaken belief that this was the
optimal float voltage setting for a 48v battery pack.

I'd been obliged to decommission it for lack of serviceable batteries
some two or three years back. Shortly after which, I discovered that not
only was 2.3v per cell destructive of the two sets of cheap 36AH SLI
batteries (6 months of an unremitting 13.8v float charging regime being
sufficient to ruin your typical car battery), it didn't do any favours
for the typical SLA batteries specified for UPS duty either, which rather
put me off the whole idea of trying to gain hours and hours worth of
autonomy using a bloody expensive 100+ AH battery bank.

My previous experience with the alternative of backing up the UPS with a
cheap petrol genset had been a rather frustrating one since the
significant capacitive loading from the UPS (9.4μF across the mains
input) had sent my 2.8KVA 'Aldi special' genset into a massive overvolting
spree, ending only when the UPS gave up on bucking the excess "Mains
Supply" voltage and switching to battery power. I don't think I need
paint you a more detailed picture - I'm sure you can figure out the rest
of the story just from that description alone.

When Lidl put their Parkside PGI 1200 B2 1KW inverter genset on offer
just over two months ago, at a mere 99 quid it was an irresistible
opportunity not to be missed by which to verify that it would at long
last be possible to backup my UPS with a petrol generator that *wasn't*
doomed to overvolt when supplying emergency power.

This did prove to be the case although I only got some 30 seconds run
time before the genset cut out with an overload due to a loose alternator
plug connection to its inverter module. This, however, was more than
enough time to see me returning to Lidl for an exchange unit which
wouldn't start until I disconnected the low oil sensor switch.

Not knowing this was a common stock fault with a stuck float switch at
the time (I was worried it might have been a temperamental oil *pressure*
switch) I returned this unit (after running a more extensive UPS
compatibility test) for yet another exchange but the store was, by that
time, out of stock. I got hold of the current one a week later from
another store when I was by then, now wise to these two stock (and easily
corrected) 'faults'.

So now at long last, I *can* provide emergency power backup with
autonomy measured in hours and days rather than mere hours from 500
quid's worth or more of 'consumable' batteries alone.

Advice to anyone contemplating such an upgrade to their existing UPS
emergency supply, the trick is to avoid not only the ordinary emergency
generators but also that piece of ****e Workzone inverter genset,
currently being peddled by Aldi, and choose only modern "Suitcase"
inverter genset types for this task.

With modern LED lit homes, even those humble 1KW rated Parkside inverter
gensets are likely all you'll need to keep not only *all* the lights on
but power the CH/DHW circulator pump, zone valve(s) and controller, a
couple of desktop machines, a UHD Smart TV, an ethernet switch or two and
your modem router (and a DECT phone base station and a few USB chargers
to keep your tablets and phones charged up).

A 1000W (cont.)/1200W (30s surge) rated inverter genset is probably a
bit too marginal to include your typical fridge and freezer compressor
starting loads even using manual power management scheduling - a chest
freezer can go for 24 hours or more without power without risk of
spoilage provided you're not delving into it more than two or three times
a day. If you can schedule a 'fast freeze' run to drop the temperature
below normal, it'll probably last for 48 hours or more before you need to
repeat the cycle.

The fridge, otoh, assuming our larder fridge (Whirlpool) is typical of
the breed, is going to be harder to manage this way with its 4 or 5 hour
thermostatically controlled cycle and 1000 or so watts startup surge
(67W/130VA running), so an effective solution would appear to be to use
it like an old fashioned 'Ice Box' where you source your supply of ice
from the freezer and leave the fridge unplugged for the duration.

The discouraging surge loading test result with the fridge rather put me
off repeating the exercise for our Elcold chest freezer so I don't have
any similar figures. In view of the "Use the fridge like an old fashioned
Ice Box" option, fed with ice from the freezer, I now regret that
omission.

It's just possible that its surge loading may not have been quite so bad
so I might have a go at grabbing this data in the not too distant future
with the analogue watt meter and a digital movie camera to record the
startup readings as I'd had to do with the fridge.

Of course, it you use a modern fridge freezer with a VFD compressor,
this eliminates the hefty startup surge of the traditional sealed
induction motor and compressor, replacing it with a more efficient and
steady 30 or 40 watt continuous load - problem solved! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On 28/07/18 00:29, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:00:32 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

Most small UPS's are designed with an up time of about 10 minutes at
full load, ie long enough to see if the power comes back ina minute or
two and long enough for things to shutdown nicely if it doesn't. So your
looking at a 1500 VA unit.

Also be aware that UPS's are far more sensitive to overload than the
mains. Switching on a CRT monitor did't bother the mains but the UPS
would instantly shutdown.

Switching on a 19 inch CRT colour monitor whilst powering a 300W load (a
desktop and server box fed via an Upsonic600 - I'm not *that* stupid!)
didn't disturb my venerable SmartUPS2000 in the slightest despite the
brief 20 or so amps degaussing transient "CLANG!!!" from the monitor. :-)


But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking batteries
it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of batteries in 3 to
4 years. Charge rate far too high for the temperature of the batteries.
In March 2014 I fitted a fan, reduced the charge rate and replaced the
batteries., That set of batteries are still working fine. The cheapo PC
slot exhaust fan has just needed to be replaced but that's only a fiver
versus £50 ish for a new set of batteries...

Battery cooking is a well known trait of APC UPS's, so unless you
willing to dive in and mod your new UPS or can find real evidence that a
given model doesn't cook the batteries I'd avoid APC.

The more recent (less than 20 years old) APC SmartUPS series can be
configured via their serial/USB interface to float charge at less than
the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting, allowing you to chose a less
corrosive 2.25v per cell (13.5v per 12v SLA) setting. I'm not sure, but I
think even that ancient SmartUPS2000 of mine originally had such
provision (I could look at but I could not touch any of the settings for
some undetermined reason).

Luckily the VR4 pot allowed me to adjust the 55.5v setting (it had
drifted up from my original 55.2v setting) down to 54.0v to save a
recently acquired set of four 7AH SLAs bought cheap from my local Alarm
company (I know the proprietor from our computer club days) from a
premature demise.

The original capacity spec was for 17AH SLAs but I was recommissioning
this UPS on the cheap to test the PGI 1200 B2 Parkside inverter genset's
immunity from the leading current induced overvolting defect common to
standard generators that use the raw output from a single phase 50Hz
alternator driven at a notionally steadyish 3,000rpm with AVR control of
the rotor field winding magnetisation current[2].

A significant downside with that SmartUPS700 is the 20 watts standby
consumption *after* its battery pack has fully recharged and drawing mere
micro-amps of charging current. At 15p a unit, that's about 26 quid a
year. I retired it in favour of a BackUPS500 (quasi-sine wave 500VA/350W
rated single 7AH SLA unit with a 2.7W standby consumption) which floats
its battery at 13.49v in standby but raises this to 14v when plugged in
and switched off - no wonder the battery lasts so long! It's only ever
plugged in and switched off for a few hours after a battery change in
order to quickly put a refreshing charge back into the battery. :-)

[1] This rather corrosive float charging voltage is chosen as the default
merely to claim an extra 5 to 10% or so autonomy out of a brand new set
of batteries (for the first 12 to 18 months at least) by way of 'Bragging
Rights'.

It's not just APC who are guilty of this, all the manufacturers use this
trick (at least in the case of SoHo kit). You'd do well to RTFM and
adjust the float voltage down to the 2.25v per cell mark. It might
curtail the autonomy by 5 or 10% over that of a not yet fried battery
pack but it'll pay dividends some 3 or 4 years down the line when you can
expect to see at least another two or three years of life out of your
'consumable'.


Thank you for that - very interesting and most informative

On Friday, 27 July 2018 09:10:31 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Cheers,

Tim

Buy a laptop.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:00:32 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (nee=
d
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

Most small UPS's are designed with an up time of about 10 minutes at
full load, ie long enough to see if the power comes back ina minute
or two and long enough for things to shutdown nicely if it doesn't.
So your looking at a 1500 VA unit.

Also be aware that UPS's are far more sensitive to overload than the
mains. Switching on a CRT monitor did't bother the mains but the UPS
would instantly shutdown.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Now that I've got at my APC Smart UPS 700 to stop it cooking
batteries it "just works". It did before but would kill a set of
batteries in 3 to 4 years. Charge rate far too high for the
temperature of the batteries. In March 2014 I fitted a fan, reduced
the charge rate and replaced the batteries., That set of batteries
are still working fine. The cheapo PC slot exhaust fan has just
needed to be replaced but that's only a fiver versus =A350 ish for a
new set of batteries...

Battery cooking is a well known trait of APC UPS's, so unless you
willing to dive in and mod your new UPS or can find real evidence
that a given model doesn't cook the batteries I'd avoid APC.


That explains a lot, thanks.


--
AnthonyL

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?

Scott wrote:

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency?

Yes they eat a little power

If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?

The energy police haven't busted down my door yet, I choose to pay a
little extra to keep stuff running (last time I checked the event log it
had supplied power 11 times in 14 months, some for seconds, others for
tens of minutes).

On 29/07/18 07:49, harry wrote:
On Friday, 27 July 2018 09:10:31 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Cheers,

Tim

Buy a laptop.


That won't run my internet, wifi, home automation etc!

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.

On 29/07/18 14:00, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.


Well, yes - to some extent it will add a degree of inefficiency. That's
unavoidable with any UPS.

The question is:

How do you value a small waste cost vs unavailable or possibly damaged
IT equipment due to frequent power losses?

APC's SmartUPS 1000 claims 97% efficiency.

Let's be uncharitable and say a typical UPS is 90% and your IT load is
100W (that's a lot, an HP Microserver Gen8 is quoted at 50W - so I am
adding a switch, modem and HA embedded controller.

Your wastage there would be 10W.

At 15p/unit that is 3.6p/day or £13/year.

In over half the year, that heat is probably not wasted (contributing to
home heating).

If the APC get's better than 95%, halve the above.

It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things.

On 29/07/2018 13:26, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/18 07:49, harry wrote:
On Friday, 27 July 2018 09:10:31 UTC+1, Tim WattsÂ* wrote:
Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

That won't run my internet, wifi, home automation etc!

Most routers are 12V so connect it to an old car battery.

--
Max Demian

On Sunday, 29 July 2018 13:26:08 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/18 07:49, harry wrote:
On Friday, 27 July 2018 09:10:31 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Cheers,

Tim

Buy a laptop.


That won't run my internet, wifi, home automation etc!

It means you don't lose unsaved data in a power cut.

On 29/07/18 18:04, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 29 July 2018 13:26:08 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/07/18 07:49, harry wrote:
On Friday, 27 July 2018 09:10:31 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Cheers,

Tim

Buy a laptop.


That won't run my internet, wifi, home automation etc!

It means you don't lose unsaved data in a power cut.


My main PC is a laptop

It's the rest of the stuff I'm concerned about...

On Sunday, 29 July 2018 14:01:00 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jKGQXH55fs&t=1s

harry wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jKGQXH55fs&t=1s

Does youtube offer 'Steptoe & Son' up next for anyone else after that?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:27:55 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 14:00, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.


Well, yes - to some extent it will add a degree of inefficiency. That's
unavoidable with any UPS.

The question is:

How do you value a small waste cost vs unavailable or possibly damaged
IT equipment due to frequent power losses?

APC's SmartUPS 1000 claims 97% efficiency.

Let's be uncharitable and say a typical UPS is 90% and your IT load is
100W (that's a lot, an HP Microserver Gen8 is quoted at 50W - so I am
adding a switch, modem and HA embedded controller.

Your wastage there would be 10W.

At 15p/unit that is 3.6p/day or £13/year.

In over half the year, that heat is probably not wasted (contributing to
home heating).

If the APC get's better than 95%, halve the above.

It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks very much. This allows me to assess the pros and cons.

My thinking is not to install a UPS since power cuts are very
infrequent here (all supply wiring underground). Also, I have a
dedicated radial circuit for the computer and all circuits have
individual RCBOs so a fault inside the property should not affect the
supply to the computer. I'm not doing anything very out of the
ordinary and Windows 10 generally seems to recover well.

On 29/07/18 18:45, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:27:55 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 14:00, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.


Well, yes - to some extent it will add a degree of inefficiency. That's
unavoidable with any UPS.

The question is:

How do you value a small waste cost vs unavailable or possibly damaged
IT equipment due to frequent power losses?

APC's SmartUPS 1000 claims 97% efficiency.

Let's be uncharitable and say a typical UPS is 90% and your IT load is
100W (that's a lot, an HP Microserver Gen8 is quoted at 50W - so I am
adding a switch, modem and HA embedded controller.

Your wastage there would be 10W.

At 15p/unit that is 3.6p/day or £13/year.

In over half the year, that heat is probably not wasted (contributing to
home heating).

If the APC get's better than 95%, halve the above.

It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks very much. This allows me to assess the pros and cons.

My thinking is not to install a UPS since power cuts are very
infrequent here (all supply wiring underground). Also, I have a
dedicated radial circuit for the computer and all circuits have
individual RCBOs so a fault inside the property should not affect the
supply to the computer. I'm not doing anything very out of the
ordinary and Windows 10 generally seems to recover well.


I apologise for my dismissive tone earlier - instinctively I knew it was
a small number but no way anyone else might assume that.

And in this case, the problem of frequent power cuts is a bigger issue
to me.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:29:39 +0000, Johnny B Good wrote:

The more recent (less than 20 years old) APC SmartUPS series can be
configured via their serial/USB interface to float charge at less than
the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting, allowing you to chose a less
corrosive 2.25v per cell (13.5v per 12v SLA) setting. I'm not sure, but
I think even that ancient SmartUPS2000 of mine originally had such
provision (I could look at but I could not touch any of the settings for
some undetermined reason).

I know this has been discussed before, but can you please give a link to
a resource for doing this (for those A{C units that support it)?

I have three APC units here, and I'd be interested in doing it. My
batteries last 3-4 years depending on the unit.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

Bob Eager wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

SmartUPS series can be configured via their serial/USB interface to
float charge at less than the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting

I know this has been discussed before, but can you please give a link to
a resource for doing this

http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_smartups_battery_float_voltage

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 18:50:13 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 18:45, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:27:55 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 14:00, Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA (need
to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an
energy efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.


Well, yes - to some extent it will add a degree of inefficiency. That's
unavoidable with any UPS.

The question is:

How do you value a small waste cost vs unavailable or possibly damaged
IT equipment due to frequent power losses?

APC's SmartUPS 1000 claims 97% efficiency.

Let's be uncharitable and say a typical UPS is 90% and your IT load is
100W (that's a lot, an HP Microserver Gen8 is quoted at 50W - so I am
adding a switch, modem and HA embedded controller.

Your wastage there would be 10W.

At 15p/unit that is 3.6p/day or £13/year.

In over half the year, that heat is probably not wasted (contributing to
home heating).

If the APC get's better than 95%, halve the above.

It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things.

Thanks very much. This allows me to assess the pros and cons.

My thinking is not to install a UPS since power cuts are very
infrequent here (all supply wiring underground). Also, I have a
dedicated radial circuit for the computer and all circuits have
individual RCBOs so a fault inside the property should not affect the
supply to the computer. I'm not doing anything very out of the
ordinary and Windows 10 generally seems to recover well.


I apologise for my dismissive tone earlier - instinctively I knew it was
a small number but no way anyone else might assume that.

It's fine. We all send stuff in a rush - that's the nature of social
media.

And in this case, the problem of frequent power cuts is a bigger issue
to me.

My impression is that power cuts are far more common in areas with
overhead cabling than in urban areas where the cabling is underground
and old. My brother used to live in a village and regularly had power
cuts. I'm in a 100 year old flat where power cuts are very rare.
Certainly, in your position I would adopt your approach.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 19:10:08 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

SmartUPS series can be configured via their serial/USB interface to
float charge at less than the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting

I know this has been discussed before, but can you please give a link
to a resource for doing this

http://www.jjoseph.org/notes/apc_smartups_battery_float_voltage

Thanks! I remember seeing some instructions a while ago, but time to *do*
something...!

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
harry wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jKGQXH55fs&t=1s

Does youtube offer 'Steptoe & Son' up next for anyone else after that?

Yeah, it did for me, and I didnt watch the other link to old Steptoes
either.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 18:03:09 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 23:29:39 +0000, Johnny B Good wrote:

The more recent (less than 20 years old) APC SmartUPS series can be
configured via their serial/USB interface to float charge at less than
the default[1] 2.3v per cell setting, allowing you to chose a less
corrosive 2.25v per cell (13.5v per 12v SLA) setting. I'm not sure, but
I think even that ancient SmartUPS2000 of mine originally had such
provision (I could look at but I could not touch any of the settings
for some undetermined reason).

I know this has been discussed before, but can you please give a link to
a resource for doing this (for those A{C units that support it)?

I have three APC units here, and I'd be interested in doing it. My
batteries last 3-4 years depending on the unit.

I see Andy has already provided a link to a useful website. Bear in mind
that the Back-UPS series generally didn't cater at all for such external
monitoring and control. The Back-UPS Pro and the Smart-UPS models are
equipped with the proprietary wired DB9 serial port (later models used a
USB interface) required to support remote monitoring and control.

APC provide software called PowerChute. I see I have a copy of
PowerChutePersonalEdition which I downloaded (presumably for free after
registering on line) from APC's support site way back in Nov 2008. I've
also got a copy of winapcupsd-3.14.4.exe I downloaded a few days later
which is an open source APC power monitoring daemon for windows (I note
that the latest version is now at 3.14.14).

You can google for details on how to wire up the UPS end of a basic 3
wire serial interface cable once you're ready to try the remote access
feature of a suitably equipped APC UPS.

Having browsed through most of the many circuit diagrams for APC's
earlier UPSes (circa 1995 to 2004 that I'd downloaded from a Russian
website back in 2008) to track down the diagrams for that tiny BackUPS500
I mentioned earlier to verify the battery charging circuit that I'd had
to repair just 12 months or so after purchasing it from a radioham rally
trader (unused and in its original packaging for just 25 quid). I see
that the analogue regulator IC that I'd had to replace must have been a
7815 (at least originally) rather than a 7812 as I'd misremembered it.

It's highly likely that I'd simply substituted the 7815 with a 7812 and
a resistor network to lift the common pin by the required 3 volts. The
details of this repair are now marked up on a printed out circuit diagram
packed away in the original box which is now stored in the attic for safe
keeping so I can't be any more precise about the details of the repair
than that.

The 12v battery charging circuit was as crude as can be, relying on the
1.4v drop of a couple of 1N4005 diodes in series to drop the 15v
regulator output to approximately 13.6v - however, the diodes did serve
the secondary function of preventing the battery from back feeding into
the output of the 7815 chip, rather neatly fulfilling two separate
functions in the circuit. I think it was just a matter of dumb luck that
the float charge voltage ended up being 13.5 rather 13.8 volts in this
case.

Having looked at so many of APC's circuit diagrams, I have to say that
I've never seen so ****ely laid out circuit diagrams in all my life as
those (and that's even going by the crap standards of 1960s American
electronic "Schematic diagram" practice!).

I even spotted a few totally illogical wire ups of CMOS 4000 series
logic gates including one case where the output of a dual input gate was
wired to Vcc at 12v. I suppose I could have worked out what "IC2"
actually was if ICBA but life's too short to waste on satisfying mere
idle curiosity.

The one thing about all of these diagrams is that most of the ICs and
discrete semiconductors were simply labelled with an IC or U number with
no BoM listing in sight. However, in many cases I'd spot voltage and
current ratings for diodes and transistors marked against these
components even to the extent of indication Rds values of 0.028 ohms and
50v for the power FETs used in the inverter sections which, to my mind,
could only be BUZ11s (or their equivalent).

If you're trying to repair one of these older UPSes using these diagrams
as a guide, you can usually identify the mystery components on the
diagram by locating the actual components as fitted to the PCB(s) anyway,
so these diagrams aren't entirely useless in this regard (just bloody
difficult to follow and make sense of).

--
Johnny B Good

On 29/07/18 20:03, Scott wrote:

My impression is that power cuts are far more common in areas with
overhead cabling than in urban areas where the cabling is underground
and old. My brother used to live in a village and regularly had power
cuts. I'm in a 100 year old flat where power cuts are very rare.
Certainly, in your position I would adopt your approach.


That's probably it - a pair of 33kV lines come into our village and it's
probably those that are the problem.

On 30/07/18 04:08, Johnny B Good wrote:

If you're trying to repair one of these older UPSes using these diagrams
as a guide, you can usually identify the mystery components on the
diagram by locating the actual components as fitted to the PCB(s) anyway,
so these diagrams aren't entirely useless in this regard (just bloody
difficult to follow and make sense of).


I'm currently looking at the Riello Sentinel Pro series:

https://www.comms-express.com/assets...20Brochure.pdf

Look quite nice - need to see if I can find any reviews now...


Auto selecting online or line-interactive modes, low noise, high
efficiency, sine wave.

Protections Overcurrent - short-circuit - overvoltage - undervoltage -
temperature - excessive low battery

OS support: Windows, Linux, VMware ESXi, MacOSX and more.


Ticks the boxes on paper at least.

On 29 Jul 2018 18:03:09 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

I know this has been discussed before, but can you please give a link to
a resource for doing this (for those A{C units that support it)?

My Smart UPS 700 needed a hardware hack and poking some values into
the firmware via the serial port and the units "debug" mode. I have a
sneaky feeling that I don't have any documenation about what I did
but may well have posted details in here around Mar 2014.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:00:55 +0100, Scott wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 13:49:58 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 29/07/18 12:31, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:10:25 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Who makes good domestic UPSes these days? Looking for about 500VA
(need to put a power meter in to be sure) and 30 mins runtime.

But it's more about which make and possibly series are any good?

Would like a decent output too (proper sinusoidal).

Sorry, a basic question. Do these devices detract from energy
efficiency? If leaving stuff on stand-by is frowned upon, is a UPS
not even worse?



Don't care

Well, I do. I'm not spending any of my time trying to set up an energy
efficient home only to have it undone by one appliance.

I was hoping for an answer to my question.

I can satisfy your curiosity about that for three APC models of UPS if
that's any help. The SmartUPS2000 draws 32 to 35 watts depending on the
actual mains voltage I suppose. The much smaller SmartUPS700 draws a
whopping 20 watts for its miserly 450W/700VA's worth of protection and
the tiny BackUPS500 takes a mere 2.7W for its 'quasi-sine wave'
350W/500VA's worth of protection (also, it only uses a *single* 7AH 12v
SLA).

These "maintainance" consumption figures exclude battery charging
activity (i.e. the figures are for when the battery packs are well and
truly charged up and drawing less than a milliamp of charging current).

The UPS manufacturers rarely, if ever, mention the "Maintainance"
consumption figure in their specifications. All UPSes consume some power
whilst in service ready to switch over to their battery powered inverter
supply in the event of a mains outage.

That tiny BackUPS500 was the only one that consumed what I'd hoped all
similarly rated UPSes in the sub 500W class would be specced for. A 3W or
less maintainance figure for a 350W/500VA unit is a not unreasonable
energy cost but discovering that the 450W/700VA rated SmartUPS700 was
taking 20W regardless of whether or not its fully charged battery pack
was connected was a rather shocking surprise.

Scaling that up threefold to the SmartUPS2000's level of 1500W/2000VA
protection would equate to a 60W maintainance figure which is what made
the SmartUPS2000's 32 to 35 watts figure look so economic by comparison.
However, despite the better maintainance consumption to protection ratio,
that's still a significant running expense added onto a household's
annual electricity bill.

At one time I had a total of five UPSes in service, adding some 80 watts
to my background consumption when each watt of 24/7 consumption
approximated to a pound a year's worth of electricity. I've now cut that
down to about 35 watts which now works out to about a quid's worth of
electricity a week which seems a reasonable premium to pay for protection
against any unplanned outages.

Of course, these are all 20 years or older models and one might hope for
lower standby consumption figures with more current models. However, I
wouldn't bank on that being true unless the manufacturer is prepared to
publish this figure of merit in the specifications.

--
Johnny B Good

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:27:55 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

====snip====


APC's SmartUPS 1000 claims 97% efficiency.

I suspect that figure is for the DC to AC conversion efficiency of the
sine wave inverter. However, assuming they've expressed the ratio of
maintainance consumption to maximum power output as an 'efficiency'
percentage (I'm guessing the 1000 is the VA rating making the wattage
rating 750W on the assumption of a PF figure of 75% for the VA rating
being used), that would imply a standby power consumption circa 22.5
watts (or 24 watts for 800W at a less generous 80% PF rating).

Using the same basis to calculate the SmartUPS700 'efficiency rating'
would give a figure of 96% and for the SmartUPS2000, a figure of 97.7%. I
somehow don't think that 97% efficiency figure relates to what you think
it does.

The only other type of UPS where such an efficiency figure would be
significant is the no-break type where power to the protected load is
provided from the inverter at all times. I'm pretty certain the
SmartUPS1000 is just another line interactive UPS just like the
SmartUPS700 and SmartUPS2000 models.


Let's be uncharitable and say a typical UPS is 90% and your IT load is
100W (that's a lot, an HP Microserver Gen8 is quoted at 50W - so I am
adding a switch, modem and HA embedded controller.

Your wastage there would be 10W.

At 15p/unit that is 3.6p/day or £13/year.

In over half the year, that heat is probably not wasted (contributing to
home heating).

If the APC get's better than 95%, halve the above.

It's a very small number in the grand scheme of things.

If that 3% energy loss is for when the SmartUPS1000 is passing mains
power through to a load at the maximum rating, you can't apply a linear
efficiency calculation for fractional loadings since it must include the
fixed maintainance consumption leading to an efficiency figure of just
30% or so for a 10W load (or just 1% for a 1W load). The real concern is
down to the cost of just keeping it plugged into the mains without any
load connected or switched on. I think you need to determine exactly what
APC mean by "An efficiency of 97%" before you try working out such TCO
figures. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

The SmartUPS2000 draws 32 to 35 watts depending on the
actual mains voltage I suppose.

That feels about right for the warmth of the case of mine, I used to run
a switched APC PDU on the output of the UPS, so I could remotely control
8x IEC sockets with various IT kit, but that ate a similar amount of
power to the UPS, and I eventually decided it wasn't worth it.

At one time I had a total of five UPSes in service

I just have the SU2200 in use (but I have a spare SU2200 and SU1400).