Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that
this is a rather long post. However, there are quite a few insights into
Lidl's stocking policy which might help you deal with their rather odd
approach to customer service as well as insights into why there are so
many, easily remedied, problems with this particular product (and, no
doubt, with other similar products).

I've made references to a total of four [NOTES] which contain most of
the vital information regarding the issues of the generator and the
reasons why, despite these issues, they can still be an excellent choice
for anyone wishing to keep a computer or two running and all the house
lights on during protracted outages which may well start to become common
all too soon in urban areas that have, over the past 30 years or more,
been traditionally free of such outages.

What I'm trying to say is, please take note of the [NOTES], they're an
important part of the saga as well as a source of useful information for
anyone choosing a generator to backup an existing UPS setup.


As some of you may have noted, I recently purchased one of these
excellent (fsvo 'excellent') Parkside PGI 1200 B2 generators from our
recently opened main Lidl store the Sunday before last whilst
accompanying SWMBI on a shopping trip.

I'd been hoping to see the return of these gensets, since even at their
earlier price of 129 quid last year - all silly faults aside[1], they're
the best value for money for any genset in the class of "Inverter"[2].

We hadn't seen any announcement in Lidl's leaflets regarding them so you
can imagine my surprise when I spotted a half pallet's worth just stood
there waiting to be grabbed. Even more remarkable was their price drop of
30 quid, down to an irresistible double digit price tag of just 99 quid!
Move aside, Marland. You're no longer the sole UK owner of a 99 quid PGI
1200B2 genset - club membership has just been widened to include the
great unwashed. :-)

It was the very first item that went into the trolley that SWMBI had
selected for its petiteness and ease of handling. We hadn't planned on a
very big "Shop" (we rarely do) so it wasn't long before I was
paraphrasing under my breath from the "Jaws" movie, "We're gonna need a
bigger trolley!".

When we got home, I headed for the basement looking for a can of 15W-40
or suitable substitute only to be faced with a flooding coal hole that
was threatening to inundate the rest of the basement, and so a new thread
in this NG was born :-( namely:

Recommendations for a SELF PRIMING (not a submersible!) cellar pump.

which you've all no doubt seen, if not read. As a consequence of the
saga of the flooded basement, I didn't get a chance to test the genset
out until the following Sunday when it proved to be faulty[1] and too
late to return on the off chance that there'd be any more left until the
Monday. Amazingly, there were still some left (two in fact) so I
exchanged it after declining their initial offer of a full refund.

This time, the problem was that I couldn't start it no matter how hard I
tried. Eventually, it dawned on me that the red light that kept lighting
up for a few seconds each time I cranked it on the pull cord, was an "Oil
Low" warning light. I gave it a rest, thinking my 35 year old sprog would
be home soon enough to yank the recalcitrant bugger into life whilst I
could positively identify that it *was* only the oil warning lamp that
was lighting up each time - any excuse to take a breather.

My sprog duly returned home from work and we were able to remove the
spark plug to check for sparks of which there were none until I
disconnected a loose bullet connector that just happened to be the low
oil sensor (literally a float sensor rather than a pressure sensor like
on pre ecu car engines). We were then able to see sparks at the plug
points, proving that the problem was a faulty sensor or a framing fault
on the oil sensor lead hidden under the plastic cowling covering the
engine/pm generator sub assembly within the outer casing.

Since we could see that the oil level was just past the high mark
through the dipstick/filling/drain hole, we left the bullet connector
disconnected and it fired up first pull after we refitted the spark plug
and HT lead.

Indeed we left it running for a few minutes to warm it up, thinking, "If
this blows up, it blows up! It's not our fault that the Oil Level warning
sensor circuit had a fault.", before connecting it to the input of the
APC SmartUPS2000 to prove that it could actually supply stable enough
power to satisfy the (not quite so) picky mains quality demanded by the
UPS before it will transfer back to mains power[3].

The test was a complete success but I hadn't seen the youtube video and
the all important comment at that stage which would have shed light on
both this and the first genset's problem, so decided to take it back for
a second exchange attempt the next day - it was after 10pm by the time we
had given up on our abortive attempt to trace the oil level sensor wiring
by trying to disassemble it without disturbing the single screw hidden
under a warranty tamper-proof sticker that would have made the job so
much easier.

It was quite a struggle trying to reassemble the engine unit back into
the casing by torchlight alone but we eventually accounted for every
single nut, bolt, washer and screw, if not the mystery location for the
end of a fuel pipe coming off a 3 port gubbins attached to the base next
to the fuel tap. We simply left it dangling where it naturally wished to
dangle and closed everything up[4].

I marched into Lidl the following day (this Tuesday) and, with a
straight face, explained that this one couldn't even be started, and "Do
you still have that other genset available for exchange?" to which the
answer was no. Thus dismayed, I accepted the refund.

I'll say this for Lidl, I've never had a problem over refunds on DoA
kit. However, it doesn't make up for their **** stock control system
where half of it must be in mobile storage at any one time, clocking up
thousands of UK motorway miles per annum as it trundles endlessly from
warehouse to store with the unsold stock (sometimes all of it) going back
again before going out on yet another trip the next time they go 'On
Special Offer'.

It seems that, unlike in the Aldi setup, the store managers in Lidl have
virtually no autonomy, obliged as they are (according to one such manager
I spoke to) to 'Follow Orders' which are basically, "Withdraw from Offer"
to make room for next week's offers (since the shop itself is its own
warehouse space - there's no "back of store storage area" in Lidl stores).

I found all this out when I went back to the new Lidl store to verify
with my own eyes that I hadn't been fobbed off simply to avoid a possible
third return claim and got this explanation about the way Lidl stock is
rotated around the country as an excuse for not being able to dispose of
'faulty stock' when I'd enquired after the Parkside inverter gensets and
was immediately shown a pallet with one still stacked there.

Strangely enough, it looked like the second one I'd returned the day
before and I said as much which lead to that very illuminating chat,
the way Lidl manages its stock. When I tried to blagg it back at a
slightly reduced price to account for the lack of any warranty protection
(I had seen that all important youtube video and the even more
illuminating comments by that stage[1]) I was told this wasn't possible
due to safety concerns with faulty product.

It was even a "No" to my asking if he could be so good as to check the
other two or three local Lidl stores for stock, so I was left bereft of a
cheap inverter genset - the only class of genset suitable to back up my
UPS protected supply[3]. So I left the store believing that by now,
there'd be no chance of my ever finding one in another Lidl store.
However, I had the XYL (SWMBI) waiting in the car for me to try a more
distant Lidl from which she wanted to buy some uncommonly available items
and some odds and sods. I'd only swung by the new store to try my luck
with the manager before searching further afield anyway.

The other, more distant store didn't have any gensets in stock either so
that seemed to be that. Heading back home, I decided to give our longer
established local Lidl a punt, leaving SWMBI sat in the car whilst I
nipped inside to confirm the situation. Incredibly, there was a stack of
three waiting to be snatched up. I swiftly nipped back out to grab a
trolley and, with some restraint, picked *only* two after deciding which
of the three to leave behind by the state of its packaging.

After seeing just how expensive even a 900W rated inverter genset was, a
mere 198 quid for a pair of 1000/1200W inverter gensets seemed too
irresistable to let slip. Besides, I figured I'd save myself at least one
return trip by 'bulk buying'. I was expecting problems along the lines of
"The Stock Faults" leaving me a choice of which one to swiftly sort out
and keep and which to return. I'd have been quite happy to keep both if
they were both fully functional with no sign of any issues but, as it
happened, there was something to choose despite them both being fully
functioning when tested, unlike the first two I'd bought nearly a
fortnight earlier.

Once I'd decided which was the 'keeper', it was just a matter of
draining the fuel and oil and reboxing the "Return Item" for a refund.
Since I'd purchased them on a single debit card transaction, I was half
expecting a problem of one sort or another but the refund went so
slickly, I forgot to ask for an amended receipt before leaving with my
2nd "REFUND COPY" ticket from Lidl in the past 11 days.

I've made a note of the original purchase details on the back of the
ticket just in case I ever have to make a warranty claim or accept a
refund on the other genset within the next 12 months since it'll be tied
to the original purchase transaction record which, in the event, is all I
should need anyway.

[NOTES]

[1] Ah, yes! Silly faults indeed! The fault on the first genset seemed at
first to be a fatal failure of the inverter protection in the face of an
inductive PF correction circuit I'd made up for the previous 2.8KVA Power
Craft unit I'd bought from Aldi some 5 or 6 years ago for an eye watering
180 quid.

I'd simply forgotten to disconnect my homebrewed inductor from the
basement lead before plugging it into the Lidl generator. the lagging
current, whilst within the amperage rating limit of the old conventional
2.8KVA unit was obviously stressing the output of the smaller Lidl genset
since, as soon as I plugged in, the generator started to labour,
producing a noticeable amount of vibration before it, presumably 5
seconds later, tripped out to the wattless overload.

A restart after unplugging the PF inductor from the basement end of the
emergency power lead seemed to be ok and I had the joy of briefly
witnessing a successful transfer back to "Mains Power" by the UPS for
several seconds before the overvolt?/overload light lit up causing the
UPS to go back to battery power. It may have only run for a matter of
seconds but this was only one second shy of running several seconds
longer than it ever had with the 2.8KVA genset.

It looked as though I had fatally wounded my brand new generator but, in
hindsight, it was most likely just a loose plug/socket connector where
the extra vibration of the overload had been the penultimate straw with
the brief successful run being the final straw. This was a problem
described in the comments by dean handley (9 months ago) to the following
youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTGvjbY8_s

You can jump to the 6 minute mark for the useful mains waveform
reference (which looked even more flat topped than I've experienced with
a real 'scope or a CoolEdit Pro recording of the low ac voltage output of
a cheap wallwart transformer) and then jump to the 14 minute mark shortly
before he manages to start the generator up and skip to the 15 1/2 minute
mark for the scope shot where, quite predictably, you get to see a
"perfect sinewave" spoilt only by the use of a rather crappy
'oscilloscope'.

For a radio ham, he sure doesn't seem to know very much about
electricity. For a kick off, there was no need to connect a 12v car bulb
to the transformer secondary. Then there was the lack of understanding
over the lower voltage (11.1vac on the generator's 233/234 no load output
and 11.4vac when on 240 to 245vac mains). He's obviously never looked at
a scope trace of the mains waveform before otherwise he wouldn't have
been quite so surprised to see the inverter genset's output being purer
than the mains supply.

This is something I've witnessed when testing the SmartUPS2000 with an
ancient twin beam valved 'scope as the test load when hooked up to its
own 1vac 50Hz calibration source (a 1v winding on its own transformer).
It looks like his "Oscilloscope" is of rather questionable quality since
it reproduced the waveform clipping as a perfect flat top with none of
the slight downward tilt (on the positive peaks - reversed for the
negative peaks) which I've observed using both the scope and in a CoolEdit
Pro recording of an 8vac wallwart secondary via a resistor attenuation
network to reduce the line input to half a volt or so in order to
eliminate clipping in the sound adapter's input buffer amp.

Anyway, getting back to the low oil level warning failure with the first
replacement genset, this was also a described issue by dean and one that,
like the loose connector issue, seems to be related to Lidl's policy of
endlessly transporting their stock around the country as things alternate
between 'On Offer' and 'Withdrawn' to cater for the lack of "Back of
store stock storage" space.

I'm wondering just how hard you have to hit an immovable sharp edged
object in order to rupture the fuel tank. If true, that's a surprising
and worrying deficiency in a hand portable genset. It might not be true
(maybe just an opinion) but I've seen flexible plastic items shatter when
bounced off the edge of stonework, notably the plastic bucket that my XYL
chucked down the basement stairs for me to catch. It fell short and
bounced off a step 2/3rds the way down which knocked a sizeable chunk
out, leaving a hole about 70mm in diameter a quarter of the way up the
side of the bucket.

I'd expect any domestic appliance with a fuel tank would have to pass a
a safety test against rupture from impact before it could be sold in the
EC. As for the "fuel leak" from the carburettors drain port, I suppose
that might be due to inadequate tightening of the drain port screw which
possibly explains why they were all so fekin' tight when I tried
loosening them off to prove that fuel was actually reaching the
carburettor.

There doesn't appear to be a sealing washer involved since the
difference between just dribbling and completely shut off is a tiny
fraction of a turn where it suddenly hits the limiting closed position.
The first time I slackened this screw off, purely out of idle curiosity
you understand, I was surprised by a sudden pooling of fuel on the patio
table immediately under the genset.

It hadn't occurred to me that the transparent tubing leading through a
hole in the base of the genset was to divert the drained fuel away from a
hot running engine and potential ignition source. The fire risk in the
event of the drain screw working loose when it was running remained but
at least it was outside the confines of the generator. In any case, this
feature is purely there to allow a full drain down of the carb float
chamber at the end of the season prior to being put into storage and the
tiny amount of fuel involved (unless you forget to shut off the fuel tap
first!) can readily be absorbed with a cloth rag that can then
conveniently be used to mop up any oil spillage from off the XYL's
precious patio table.

[2] The inverter class of genset is the only type you can guarantee not
to overvolt in response to leading current loads such as shunt
capacitance loading from filters and weird mains input networks in older
(and possibly current) APC SmartUPS and, now being increasingly seen with
sub 6 watt LEDs that use a "Wattless Capacitor Dropper" as a ballast for
the LED strings. Given enough such LED lighting loads these days, the
classic 50Hz alternator gensets running at 1500/3000rpm might overvolt to
the lighting load alone, blowing several lamps before the problem "cures
itself" by attrition.

[3] That rather glib expression "Noisy", "unstable" "emergency generator"
power sources not being of a high enough quality to allow the UPS to
revert back to "Mains Power" being supplied by an emergency generator.
rather implies a problem due to voltage sags under transient loads
(indeed, such implication being reinforced in the reader's mind by the
actual phrase "voltage sags under transient loads" being printed in the
APC SmartUPS manual (and no doubt repeated by other makes and brands of
UPSes).

Not only that but references to harmonic distortion, frequency
instability, and voltage transients as show stopping defects of emergency
and standby generators are also touted as excuses as to why only the most
expensive of 50KVA and above gensets can tolerate having as much as 10%
of their rated output going into UPS protected loads (and only whilst
there is a 50% or greater loading made up of purely resistive loads such
as heater elements and incandescent lighting), totally ignoring the real
problem with small cheap generators which is that quite modest amounts of
capacitive loading will upset the AVR by over-riding its control of the
alternator's output voltage by sending the rotor into saturation totally
independently of the magnetisation current being supplied by the AVR
circuit to the extent that this can happen even when the AVR stops
feeding any current at all into the rotor field winding!

Most UPSes will tolerate pretty well all of the nonsense deficiencies
touted against basic petrol/gasoline generators, even slow drifts up and
down in frequency within +/-3% which even basic gensets can readily
achieve unless badly calibrated to begin with - easily fixed by a simple
speed governor adjustment in any case.

Harmonic distortion? Not a problem unless you're generating a damn close
approximation to a square wave. Provided the generator is not wildly
overvolting, its output can be otherwise extremely dirty and still be
utilised by most UPSes as substitute mains power, even if you do have to
de-sensitise the UPS to such 'dirtiness'.

Brief dropouts? No problem for an IBM PC or clone: they can typically
ride out a half second or more break in supply and you won't be left
wondering about 'silent' random data corruption since it will reset in
the event of a power outage so brief that it only just exceed the PC's PSU
'hold up time' - if it doesn't reboot, nothing has happened to the
internal voltage rails that could have corrupted memory contents and
disturbed the operation of the main CPU and all the other micro
controller chips used in a desktop PC.

The real issue with cheap alternator gensets is their propensity to
excessively over-volt in response to capacitive loads such as PCs and
UPSes (and, these days, cheap capacitor ballasted LED lamps). Inductive
loads don't upset the AVR feature of conventional alternator gensets
although they obviously reduce the power factor which can limit the real
power output by causing an over-current trip.

The problem with the 2.8KVA Power Craft generator was that every time
the SmartUPS2000 tried to transfer back to "Mains Power" (the generator
output) the capacitive loading sent the generator's output voltage north
of the 275vac mark which caused the UPS to switch back to battery,
disconnecting the capacitors from the generator which then dropped back
to its calibrated 230vac level causing the UPS to repeat the cycle until
I gave up and transferred it back to the mains supply.

The inverter genset doesn't suffer from capacitive load induced AVR
failure, just the standard effect of reactive load currents limiting the
maximum power output to less than their VA rating. It's this feature that
makes them more versatile than the traditional alternator genset and so
useful for powering today's modern electronic kit.

As Chris Howard discovered when making that long winded youtube video,
the inverter output produces a purer sine wave than the Public Supply
Utility (PSU) just like the synthesised sine wave output of any decent
UPSes manufactured over the past quarter of a century, if not longer for
the more specialised and expensive UPS kit.

When I was testing the last two generators, I put a cheap ex-Maplin
"Energy Monitor" (digital watt meter) in line so I could measure the
actual power consumption of my test load (SmartUPS2000 powering my
NAS4Free box and its own BackUPS500 UPS along with this Desktop PC and
Asus 23 inch 1080p monitor). The first test, with the desktop PC monitor
switched off, produced a peak wattage loading of 250W which settled down
to just over 200W due to the UPS batteries charging current tapering off
after the initial shock of having to provide power to its protected load
during the change over from mains to genset power.

Not only was there the loss of power due to the act of physically
unplugging the UPS from the mains so as to plug it into the genset
socket, there was also the delay involved in the UPS bringing its
inverter into phase with the 'mains' so as to minimise current and
voltage transients on transferring back to mains power. The time required
varies from just a second or so to several seconds, typically 5 to 7
seconds.

All in all, the battery pack which will have had to supply power for
around 10 seconds so would be absorbing close to maximum charging rate
once the mains supply was restored, swiftly dropping towards zero after
some 5 to 10 minutes. ISTR a no load output voltage reading on the energy
monitor of 233vac at 50Hz which dropped just one volt on the 250W load
(after I'd switched the monitor back on and allowed time for the battery
pack charging current to settle close to zero).

The other generator showed readings about a volt higher. I noted the PF
figure was 60, presumably a percentage figure which, given all of the
capacitive loading of the UPS when in pass through mode, seemed a
reasonable figure. Presumably, this figure is likely to improve as more
unity PF loading is applied but I haven't had the time or the inclination
to do any more exhaustive testing than this since, despite its relative
quietness compared to its predecessor, it's still quite a loud noise
source for an urban environment (basically, I don't want to presume too
much upon my neighbours' largesse in the matter of noise pollution).

I'm considering recycling the bricks in a breakfast bar pillar that'd
been removed and laid on its side in two parts by the backdoor some years
ago and which now is being used as an elevated support for a planter and
some plant pots. The idea being to build a flat roofed "Doghouse" to
securely house the generator with enough room to fit sound absorbent
material without overheating the generator for want of adequate
ventilation. For the moment, that's just an initial thought for a future
project that will allow me to run the generator without needlessly
disturbing my immediate neighbours.


[4] I did spot where this pipe went to on the two new generators I'd
bought on the Wednesday when I removed the inspection/access panel for
the carburettor and air filter but I was none the wiser about its
function since it disappeared through a hole in the inner casing right
next to the carburettor. Since this mystery hose hadn't appeared to have
been held onto anything with a hose clip, I was reluctant to pull too
hard on it in case it slipped off a pushfit connection nipple somewhere
under the engine cowling and out of reach without "Some Disassembly"
being required.

--
Johnny B Good

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about buying
a genny! Glory be!

The scene: The Good Household. It is early morning.
Mrs G: What do you want for your breakfast Johnny?
Mr G: I've been giving the matter much thought dear, as I sat on the
lavatory and performed my other ablutions, which in fact were more
extensive, time-consuming and laborious than usual because I decided,
having looked in the bathroom mirror (the one we bought from B & Q in
2006; remember it was a replacement one because the first one had a tiny
but irritating mark at bottom left, about 32mm in from the corner along
the bottom edge)to trim my beard. The beard is, as you know, although
rather splendid if you are a fan of rampant undergrowth, was becoming a
bit of a nuisance whilst driving and was also causing hygiene issues to
arise occasionally. Anyway, to cut a long story short (but not to cut a
long beard too short, ha ha!) I was unable to locate my electric beard
trimmer for several minutes, which added to the time I had to consider
what to have for breakfast. If you remember dear you bought the trimmer
for me as a birthday present when I reached my ninetieth. That was an
occasion to remember! The firemen were quite rude weren't they, after
the 90 candles set the curtains on fire! It was lucky I had the fire
extinguisher that I bought on special offer at Lidl in 2013!
Mrs G: What do want for your ****ing breakfast you despicable old cretin?
Mr G: No need to shout dear. Cornflakes please. Remember when we bought
a pallet of cornflakes from...

Bill

You should go to one of Parky's shows where he is interviewed about his
life. Apparently the chat about cricket goes on almost as long as a real
cricket match, including all the rain topped play times.
grin.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
news
On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about buying a
genny! Glory be!

The scene: The Good Household. It is early morning.
Mrs G: What do you want for your breakfast Johnny?
Mr G: I've been giving the matter much thought dear, as I sat on the
lavatory and performed my other ablutions, which in fact were more
extensive, time-consuming and laborious than usual because I decided,
having looked in the bathroom mirror (the one we bought from B & Q in
2006; remember it was a replacement one because the first one had a tiny
but irritating mark at bottom left, about 32mm in from the corner along
the bottom edge)to trim my beard. The beard is, as you know, although
rather splendid if you are a fan of rampant undergrowth, was becoming a
bit of a nuisance whilst driving and was also causing hygiene issues to
arise occasionally. Anyway, to cut a long story short (but not to cut a
long beard too short, ha ha!) I was unable to locate my electric beard
trimmer for several minutes, which added to the time I had to consider
what to have for breakfast. If you remember dear you bought the trimmer
for me as a birthday present when I reached my ninetieth. That was an
occasion to remember! The firemen were quite rude weren't they, after the
90 candles set the curtains on fire! It was lucky I had the fire
extinguisher that I bought on special offer at Lidl in 2013!
Mrs G: What do want for your ****ing breakfast you despicable old cretin?
Mr G: No need to shout dear. Cornflakes please. Remember when we bought a
pallet of cornflakes from...

Bill

In message , Brian Gaff
writes
You should go to one of Parky's shows where he is interviewed about his
life. Apparently the chat about cricket goes on almost as long as a real
cricket match, including all the rain topped play times.
grin.
Brian

I do try to be succinct...


--
Tim Lamb

Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about buying
a genny! Glory be!

snip lampoon


I must say that as a prospective buyer of one of the Lidl generators I
thought almost every word was actually useful.

--

Roger Hayter

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 02:59:48 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start
that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about buying
a genny! Glory be!

The scene: The Good Household. It is early morning.
Mrs G: What do you want for your breakfast Johnny?
Mr G: I've been giving the matter much thought dear, as I sat on the
lavatory and performed my other ablutions, which in fact were more
extensive, time-consuming and laborious than usual because I decided,
having looked in the bathroom mirror (the one we bought from B & Q in
2006; remember it was a replacement one because the first one had a tiny
but irritating mark at bottom left, about 32mm in from the corner along
the bottom edge)to trim my beard. The beard is, as you know, although
rather splendid if you are a fan of rampant undergrowth, was becoming a
bit of a nuisance whilst driving and was also causing hygiene issues to
arise occasionally. Anyway, to cut a long story short (but not to cut a
long beard too short, ha ha!) I was unable to locate my electric beard
trimmer for several minutes, which added to the time I had to consider
what to have for breakfast. If you remember dear you bought the trimmer
for me as a birthday present when I reached my ninetieth. That was an
occasion to remember! The firemen were quite rude weren't they, after
the 90 candles set the curtains on fire! It was lucky I had the fire
extinguisher that I bought on special offer at Lidl in 2013!
Mrs G: What do want for your ****ing breakfast you despicable old
cretin?
Mr G: No need to shout dear. Cornflakes please. Remember when we bought
a pallet of cornflakes from...


Nice one Bill! It made me chuckle all the way through. :-)

I reckon you got a lot more out of that 'saga' than I was expecting
anyone to get. :-)

Next time I'm tempted to regale the group with a similar saga, I'll
reconsider whether I really should be inflicting such lengthy prose upon
my now all too suspecting 'readership' with the watch phrase, "Is this
post really necessary?".

If I do succumb to temptation, I'll remind myself, "For Gawd's sake,
John, don't attempt it if you can't at least keep it down to less than a
couple of pages' worth! Remember that saga about the Lidl genset that
nobody wanted to read? You know, the one you should have given up on,
come 3am, and left for reviewing another day after a good night's sleep?
Yeah, that one!".

Ah well, what's done is done and at least no one died (as far I'm aware
- it's only Usenet, after all).

--
Johnny B Good

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:30 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start
that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about
buying a genny! Glory be!

snip lampoon


I must say that as a prospective buyer of one of the Lidl generators I
thought almost every word was actually useful.

You know what, that saga was so long, I'm not entirely sure what the
lesson(s) was/were and whether they would be as useful as I thought.
Thank you for that unexpectedly positive comment. I do realise the risk
of the converse of the saying "Less is more." when making such long and
detailed posts like this. I think I need to improve my "Risk Assessment"
skills. :-(

As I said in my follow up to Bill's hilarious lampoon, I'm going to
restrict any more such lengthy posts to a mere two pages worth at most
should I ever be tempted to write yet another 'Saga' (at least that's my
intent).

The only (lame) excuse I can offer is sleep deprivation; I didn't finish
that post until just before 7:30am having started it sometime in the wee
small hours around two in the morning. I'm a night owl but that was more
of a 'late night' than usual even by my normal standard. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:30 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start
that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about
buying a genny! Glory be!

snip lampoon


I must say that as a prospective buyer of one of the Lidl generators I
thought almost every word was actually useful.

Well, Roger, here's some more thoughts on that Parkside inverter genset
that I've since had in the past fortnight or so. Not quite a Saga this
time! :-)

I've been googling for ways to reduce the noise pollution that this
rather neat Honda EU1000i 'knock off' generates. Inevitably when you land
up doing your research on youtube, you get to see an awful lot of
'generator videos' demonstrating various means of reducing noise
pollution with various models of generator (and in all bar one case,
rather indifferent results for the expenditure involved).

What struck me was the startling resemblance of the Honda eu1000i and
its bigger brother, the eu2000i models, to the Parkside inverter genset,
in particular the carburettor/air filter components as well as the oil
fill/check/drain hole and its location along with the pull cord and
exhaust pipe and air cooling vent locations.

In effect, that Parkside generator would seem to be a slightly more
powerful version of the Honda eu1000i wrapped in a differently styled
carapace. The Honda uses a 49.5cc engine and is rated for 900/1000 watts
whilst the Parkside uses a 53.5cc engine and is rated for 1000/1200 watts.

What's missing from the Parkside is a 12v battery charging port and a
synchronisation link interface to combine the outputs of a pair. What's
missing from the Honda, otoh, is some 10dB or more of noise pollution.
There don't seem to be any obvious signs of sound damping in the Honda
case mouldings so, presumably, the Honda engine would seem to be of a
more rigid construction designed to reduce noise pollution, possibly
aided by a better exhaust muffler[1].

There are far more youtube videos about eu2000i generators than there
are about its smaller sibling, the eu1000i but I did manage to track a
video of one being disassembled he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuwvlJonnH4

(only 360p quality I'm afraid) which might offer a clue to the reduced
noise pollution. The engine fan ducting cowl looked to be either a die
cast part or, more likely, a pressing made from heavy gauge aluminium
sheet which may be providing improved shielding of the mechanically
generated engine noises.

I suspect the carburettor assemblies at least, all originate from the
same suppliers used by Honda (or at least patterns of the Honda spec
parts). Owners of these neat little, if not quite so quiet, Parkside
inverter gensets, might find servicing info for the Honda eu1000i (and
very likely the eu2000i) very useful to servicing and troubleshooting the
PGI 1200 B2, including the dual/triple fuel adapter kits available for
the small Honda inverter gensets (Propane/Natural gas).

[1] I saw a couple of videos where various silencer upgrades had resulted
in only a couple of dB of noise reduction, often compromising the engine
performance.

The most impressive results came from simple sound deflectors, in one
case a matter of 10dB being achieved just by laying sheets of plywood/
plasterboard round all four sides, resting at an angle of 45 degrees
against the top of an open frame generator, leaving large gaps to allow
the generator to breathe and stay cool.

This was quite obviously, as the youtuber explained, down to the effect
of reflecting the noise emissions into the grassy soil he'd parked the
generator on. Whilst I was impressed, I wasn't too surprised and it's
given me an idea or two for my own setup. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On 03/05/2018 05:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:30 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start
that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about
buying a genny! Glory be!

snip lampoon


I must say that as a prospective buyer of one of the Lidl generators I
thought almost every word was actually useful.

Well, Roger, here's some more thoughts on that Parkside inverter genset
that I've since had in the past fortnight or so. Not quite a Saga this
time! :-)


I suspect the carburettor assemblies at least, all originate from the
same suppliers used by Honda (or at least patterns of the Honda spec
parts).
Almost certainly not. Having worked in a Chinese products importing roll
for 25 years and visited many Chinese factories I can assure you they
are extremely good at copying. Their copies vary enormously in quality
despite looking exactly the same externally.

Mike

On Thu, 03 May 2018 08:25:11 +0100, Muddymike wrote:

On 03/05/2018 05:26, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 12:36:30 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Bill Wright wrote:

On 20/04/2018 07:22, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start
that
this is a rather long post.

You've never sent a short one. Four and half thousand words about
buying a genny! Glory be!

snip lampoon


I must say that as a prospective buyer of one of the Lidl generators
I thought almost every word was actually useful.

Well, Roger, here's some more thoughts on that Parkside inverter
genset
that I've since had in the past fortnight or so. Not quite a Saga this
time! :-)


I suspect the carburettor assemblies at least, all originate from the
same suppliers used by Honda (or at least patterns of the Honda spec
parts).
Almost certainly not. Having worked in a Chinese products importing roll
for 25 years and visited many Chinese factories I can assure you they
are extremely good at copying. Their copies vary enormously in quality
despite looking exactly the same externally.


Thanks, Mike.

It's no wonder I had such suspicions! Mind you, I did qualify them by the
"Pattern Parts" reference. :-)

Well, copies or not, it does look like some of the dual/triple fuel
conversion kits made for a Honda eu1000i (possibly including the eu2000i)
will likely suit the PGI 1200 B2 (possibly even the PGI 1200 A1) gensets.

And, in lieu of an actual service manual, the Honda service manuals, if
downloadable, or at least a youtube strip down video, would provide very
useful guides to anyone contemplating repair of their Parkside knock offs.

Mind you, since there are so many other makes of similar inverter gensets
around, which as far as I could tell, also seem to use virtually
identical components, Honda manuals won't be 'The only game in town' as
inspirational guides to repairing that Parkside genset (also suggesting
that paying 3 or 4 times as much for these alternatives won't necessarily
get you a better genset).

With regard to the idea of using sound deflectors to mitigate the
nuisance noise levels imposed on your neighbours, it strikes me that
there are two ways to deflect the noise. The first one already mentioned
of deflecting the noise downward into grassy soil is fine when you've got
a suitable patch of garden to stand it on but, when it needs to be parked
on hard standing, it seems a better setup of the panels might be to lean
them outwards so as to deflect the noise upwards and away from the
horizon. Either way should achieve the desired effect.

The other option of running the generator inside a soundproof box brings
a whole new set of problems such as providing the necessary ventilation,
usually using a large fan or two to provide forced ventilation. Not only
does the power consumption of a large fan reduce the net power available,
the ventilation provision (fans and associated vents) often severely
compromises the soundproofing benefit of the enclosure which ideally
should be fabricated from brick or concrete panels with sound absorbers
installed within (but not applied as panels completely covering the walls
to act as counterproductive thermal insulation).

I saw a lot of such ill conceived attempts at enclosing generators in
such housings, intended to trap the noise emissions, on youtube and the
use of lightweight materials was the predominant error in their design.
There's a lot to be said for the KISS approach to this problem (aka,
intelligent use of sound deflector panels). In short, all these youtube
videos of "Generator dog houses" were, in essence, best regarded as "How
Not To" videos for all the help they were. :-(

--
Johnny B Good

On Thursday, 3 May 2018 18:07:49 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:

The other option of running the generator inside a soundproof box brings
a whole new set of problems such as providing the necessary ventilation,
usually using a large fan or two to provide forced ventilation. Not only
does the power consumption of a large fan reduce the net power available,
the ventilation provision (fans and associated vents) often severely
compromises the soundproofing benefit of the enclosure which ideally
should be fabricated from brick or concrete panels with sound absorbers
installed within (but not applied as panels completely covering the walls
to act as counterproductive thermal insulation).

I saw a lot of such ill conceived attempts at enclosing generators in
such housings, intended to trap the noise emissions, on youtube and the
use of lightweight materials was the predominant error in their design.
There's a lot to be said for the KISS approach to this problem (aka,
intelligent use of sound deflector panels). In short, all these youtube
videos of "Generator dog houses" were, in essence, best regarded as "How
Not To" videos for all the help they were. :-(

The principle is known & simple enough. Provide a sepentine path for the sound, ie at inlet & outlet. I would have though the exhaust would be capable of driving ventilation.


NT

On Thu, 03 May 2018 11:18:01 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

On Thursday, 3 May 2018 18:07:49 UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:

The other option of running the generator inside a soundproof box
brings
a whole new set of problems such as providing the necessary
ventilation, usually using a large fan or two to provide forced
ventilation. Not only does the power consumption of a large fan reduce
the net power available,
the ventilation provision (fans and associated vents) often severely
compromises the soundproofing benefit of the enclosure which ideally
should be fabricated from brick or concrete panels with sound absorbers
installed within (but not applied as panels completely covering the
walls to act as counterproductive thermal insulation).

I saw a lot of such ill conceived attempts at enclosing generators in
such housings, intended to trap the noise emissions, on youtube and the
use of lightweight materials was the predominant error in their design.
There's a lot to be said for the KISS approach to this problem (aka,
intelligent use of sound deflector panels). In short, all these youtube
videos of "Generator dog houses" were, in essence, best regarded as
"How Not To" videos for all the help they were. :-(

The principle is known & simple enough. Provide a sepentine path for the
sound, ie at inlet & outlet. I would have though the exhaust would be
capable of driving ventilation.

I'm rather surprised that the youtubers hadn't at least done some
homework on the basic principles of noise suppression before spending on
their ill fated follies (noise suppressionwise - the other aspects of
protecting them from the elements and possible theft wasn't so much in
question).

Not so much serpentine as a zig-zag on the intake side to reflect the
sound back into the main chamber for multiple 'visits' to the sound
absorbent blocks or curtains within.

As you say, the exhaust *is* put to good use to accelerate the slower
moving engine cooling air that is exhausted in a vent that surrounds the
exhaust outlet (as per the Honda and the Parkside gensets) using the same
principle as the one used by turbofan jet engines on commercial airliners
to improve thrust efficiency. In this case, the slightly warmed engine
cooling exhaust is also put to use in cooling the exhaust muffler box,
allowing the use of such snug fitting plastic housings in this 'suitcase'
class of generator.

With that in mind, I think I'd design my brick "Doghouse" not only to
have ample room within for sound absorbers (curtains or blocks) but also
to allow for generator size upgrading.

Rather than have a relatively small exhaust aperture in a 'back
wall' (just bigger than the rear exhaust vent of the genset), I'd extend
the back out for another meter or two and then mount a sonically
transparent tube just a little larger in diameter than the rear vent of
the machine, around which I'd fill the gap with suitable sound absorbing
fibre, terminating the end of the tube to the end of the doghouse
extension with a rigid panel.

Leaving the inner side of this packing held in place with an
acoustically transparent panel would contribute to the sound absorbing
materials used within (possibly to the extent that it could even suffice
all on its own).

I think I spotted a reference to the engine rev range between eco idle
and maximum load somewhere on the 'net', possibly relating to the earlier
PGI 1200 A1 model (it isn't mentioned in the specification section of the
printed user guide), where ISTR figures of 3900 and 4300 rpm which struck
me as a rather conservative ratio between eco idling revs and flat out. I
think the figures for the Honda eu1000i were 3000 and 4300 rpm
respectively, still a conservative ratio imo.

The reason I'm interested in engine rev figures is that it decides the
lowest fundamental frequency of engine noise (65Hz and 50Hz respectively
for the Parkside and Honda gensets) and half those frequencies in the
case of single cylinder 4 stroke engine exhaust sound pressure waves[1].

To be fair, the higher the rpms, the higher the frequency, which eases
the problem of absorbing the sound energy at these shorter wavelengths.
Also, of course, the lower torque demand means lower mean cylinder
pressures making for a quieter exhaust note at partial load. Still, since
we ideally need a quarter wave resonant structure within which to place
sound absorbent material for maximum effect, it's a vital consideration
when it comes to sizing our rigid enclosure.

A quarter wavelength in air at 20 deg C for 65Hz works out to 1.32m (at
0 deg C it's 1.27m - the speed of sound in air goes up with temperature).
However, a quarter wavelength sound absorbing resonant cavity needs to be
within a room with a dimension of at least half a wavelength in order to
function properly. If we're going to size up a rigid enclosure to act as
a resonant absorber it needs to have a dimension of a minimum of half a
wavelength for any sound absorbers to work effectively.

In this case, that works out to 2.64m or 104 inches (nearly nine feet!
8' 8"). I think, if I was going to embark on a brick 'doghouse' for an
emergency genset, I'd go for a 4 1/2 by 4 1/2 by 9 foot tunnel split by
an acoustically transparent panel with an exhaust vent sized hole linking
to an acoustically transparent tube of the same cross-sectional area
leading out to a back wall vent with acoustic absorbent material filling
the surrounding space in the exhaust half of my 'doghouse'.

The front door would be a reasonably substantial panel sealed against
the front with rubber gasketting suitably vented with zig-zagged trunking
into the interior space designed to reflect any noise back towards the
exhaust end of the enclosure where they'd be dissipated into the exhaust
vent sound absorbing lining.

Even with zig-zagged trunking, the necessary vents will compromise the
noise containment performance to some extent but there are limits as to
how long a 'serpentine' path you can use before the issue of restricted
air flow starts to rear its ugly head. In any case, there's little point
in making the front door noise leakage any more than 2 or 3dB quieter
than the exhaust vent leakage.

As to whether I embark on such a major DIY project (and Gawd knows, I
could do with the exercise!) is another thing altogether. I might be more
inclined if I had more than a vague notion that my plan was theoretically
sound (forgive the pun). It looks like a little more research is needed
before I embark on what could turn out to be an unwanted folly.


[1] The pulses of exhaust gas going into the muffler from the exhaust
port approximate to half cycles of twice that frequency so although the
fundamental is half that of the vibration frequency due to the engine
revs, a significant portion of the exhaust energy is carried in the 2nd
harmonic which the muffler attenuates whilst magnifying the fundamental
which probably explains the barely perceptible improvements made by
replacing a generator's weedy muffler with that from a motorcar designed
for a four, or more, cylinder car engine where the 'tuning' factor is
less critical than for a single or twin cylinder 4 stroke engine.

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:


I've been googling for ways to reduce the noise pollution that this
rather neat Honda EU1000i 'knock off' generates.

[1] I saw a couple of videos where various silencer upgrades had resulted
in only a couple of dB of noise reduction, often compromising the engine
performance.

The most impressive results came from simple sound deflectors, in one
case a matter of 10dB being achieved just by laying sheets of plywood/
plasterboard round all four sides, resting at an angle of 45 degrees
against the top of an open frame generator, leaving large gaps to allow
the generator to breathe and stay cool.


This is was what happens when you move people into a newly constructed
building to start getting money back so fast the the mains havent been
connected, the people whose money you have taken and others object to the
racket and you get someone €œintelligent€� to box the generator in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-37478840

GH

In article ,
Muddymike wrote:
Almost certainly not. Having worked in a Chinese products importing roll
for 25 years and visited many Chinese factories I can assure you they
are extremely good at copying. Their copies vary enormously in quality
despite looking exactly the same externally.

Quite. Only need to look at modern 'Lucas' products like replacement
distributors. Look much the same until you open them up. But then they are
cheap, and you generally get what you pay for.

--
*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/05/2018 11:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Muddymike wrote:
Almost certainly not. Having worked in a Chinese products importing roll
for 25 years and visited many Chinese factories I can assure you they
are extremely good at copying. Their copies vary enormously in quality
despite looking exactly the same externally.

Quite. Only need to look at modern 'Lucas' products like replacement
distributors. Look much the same until you open them up. But then they are
cheap, and you generally get what you pay for.


Unfortunately many poor quality Chinese copies are being sold at near
genuine item prices, particularly by online sellers. I'm fed up with
trying to buy decent quality by paying a higher price only to receive crap!

My sales team use a particular style of swivelling iPad cases. They last
about a year before the corners break from the case. I spotted a more
expensive different make that offered the same features so ordered one.
I received a far inferior product despite paying a higher price!

It went back.

Mike

In article ,
Muddymike wrote:
Quite. Only need to look at modern 'Lucas' products like replacement
distributors. Look much the same until you open them up. But then they
are cheap, and you generally get what you pay for.


Unfortunately many poor quality Chinese copies are being sold at near
genuine item prices, particularly by online sellers. I'm fed up with
trying to buy decent quality by paying a higher price only to receive
crap!

The aforementioned Lucas copies tend to be cheaper than having an original
overhauled properly - hence selling well. But there are lots and lots of
complaints about them. Failing totally, or not working perfectly. Making
me wonder who buys them and are happy with the purchase.

--
*I am a nobody, and nobody is perfect; therefore I am perfect*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Muddymike wrote:
Quite. Only need to look at modern 'Lucas' products like replacement
distributors. Look much the same until you open them up. But then they
are cheap, and you generally get what you pay for.


Unfortunately many poor quality Chinese copies are being sold at near
genuine item prices, particularly by online sellers. I'm fed up with
trying to buy decent quality by paying a higher price only to receive
crap!

The aforementioned Lucas copies tend to be cheaper than having an original
overhauled properly - hence selling well. But there are lots and lots of
complaints about them. Failing totally, or not working perfectly. Making
me wonder who buys them and are happy with the purchase.


Garage down the road from here has a skip full of duff Chinese copy
parts so they tell me!...

--
Tony Sayer

trimmer for several minutes, which added to the time I had to consider
what to have for breakfast. If you remember dear you bought the trimmer
for me as a birthday present when I reached my ninetieth. That was an
occasion to remember! The firemen were quite rude weren't they, after
the 90 candles set the curtains on fire! It was lucky I had the fire
extinguisher that I bought on special offer at Lidl in 2013!
Mrs G: What do want for your ****ing breakfast you despicable old cretin?
Mr G: No need to shout dear. Cornflakes please. Remember when we bought
a pallet of cornflakes from...


That saga reads very similar to the classic Victorian spoof "Diary of a Nobody" by Grossmith in which he manages to screw up the house maintenance and just about everything else in his life, while blaming everybody else. Circa 1890.

On Sun, 06 May 2018 04:01:03 -0700, therustyone wrote:

trimmer for several minutes, which added to the time I had to consider
what to have for breakfast. If you remember dear you bought the trimmer
for me as a birthday present when I reached my ninetieth. That was an
occasion to remember! The firemen were quite rude weren't they, after
the 90 candles set the curtains on fire! It was lucky I had the fire
extinguisher that I bought on special offer at Lidl in 2013!
Mrs G: What do want for your ****ing breakfast you despicable old
cretin?
Mr G: No need to shout dear. Cornflakes please. Remember when we bought
a pallet of cornflakes from...


That saga reads very similar to the classic Victorian spoof "Diary of a
Nobody" by Grossmith in which he manages to screw up the house
maintenance and just about everything else in his life, while blaming
everybody else. Circa 1890.

You appear to be implying that Bill's inspiration for his well observed
spoof wasn't entirely original thought but merely a rehash of a late 19th
century work of fiction. You just might be right.

Bill seems to be quite a literate person (he used to entertain us with
some quite amusing, if a little off topic, pages' long anecdotes in this
news group from time to time).

However, since you asked, I finally got round to doing some load testing
this afternoon. It's the first time in over a fortnight since I last
fired it up to test its compatibility with my SmartUPS2000 that had so
distressed the previous 2.8KVA generator set as to put paid to my dream
of being able to backup my UPS backup supply with a petrol powered
generator.

Considering I had taken the precaution of shutting the fuel off at the
end of its last outing to run the carburettor dry before storing it away
for an undetermined period, it started up relatively easier than the
first time I'd struggled to start it up from new. I think a mere four or
five yanks on the starter cord was all it needed.

Anyway, we had replaced our 4 slice 1800W toaster with a 900W 2 slice
job bought an hour earlier which proved rather convenient as a test load.
Armed with three 150W lamps and a motley collection of 40 and 60 watt
lamps, a couple of 20W cfls and two 6W LEDs, I was able to pinpoint the
overload level to within about 5 watts or so.

I was slightly disappointed to discover that the maximum sustained
output threshold, before the microprocessor controlled inverter/Engine
Management module decided to wink its displeasure, was a mere 980W rather
than the 1020 to 1050 watts I'd hoped to see.

I didn't bother to verify with the analogue wattmeter which, in any
case, like the digital one I was using, was only specced for an accuracy
of +/-3% and pretty well tracked the digital meters to within 1%. Since
the lamp load when checked on the 240v mains had given a slightly lower
reading than expected, it's quite possible the inverter genset might well
be 'spot on the money' (sadly - I'd rather the setting had been at the
upper end of the tolerance range).

Overloading the genset to the 1200W mark didn't result in a 5 seconds to
shutdown event as per the specifications, it was more like 30 seconds
before the inverter module cut the power. Annoyingly, even with only a
slight overload, 990W according to my meter, it didn't run any longer
than the 30 seconds it had suffered on the 1200W overload before tripping
out. If I could discover a trimpot for calibrating the overload point, it
seems I could safely get away with recalibrating it upwards by another
50W.

The last module I'd seen the backside of (on the other generator my son
and I had almost completely stripped down about 3 weeks ago), most of the
components were embedded in potting compound with a couple of
electrolytic capacitors poking out. I can't recall seeing any signs of
trimpots as I'd seen in pictures of an ancient Honda 350W inverter module
but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I might be able to track them down if I look 'real hard' but that's a
thought for another day and best left to when its finally out of warranty
anyway, preferably after I've tracked down a circuit schematic and
physical layout (or else have a spare module handy to experiment with -
you never know).

Thinking about it, I can't recall whether I actually used all three of
the 150W lamps alongside of the 870W toaster load to rack it up to the
1290W mark (the lamps only show 140W on the 230v generator supply versus
145W on the 240v mains supply). I think I need to do a little more load
testing.

This time, I might rig up a variable load using a Philips 220v 180VA
panel mount variac transformer to feed one of the 150W lamps. Being a
panel mount design, the variac is non too safe to use 'naked' so it's
never been used in anger in all the time it's been in my possession for
the past 40 odd years.

It's high time I put it to good use. I'm fed up with trying to permutate
a test lamp collection of various wattages to obtain a best approximation
to a desired wattage loading. Mounting that variac and four BC22 batten
light sockets onto a suitable box will let me trim the lamp test load to
any desired value from zero through to just under 600 watt's worth.

That and whatever other convenient resistive loads I have to hand should
allow me to test right up to the limits of a 13A socket (circa 3KW on a
230v supply voltage) let alone the 1200W limit of the current inverter
genset.

Interestingly (for those who may care), I noticed that even when on the
higher, non-eco setting, the revs would still ramp up with heavier loads
such as the toaster or the 3x150W lamp test load. In the eco mode the
revs didn't start to increase until around the 80W mark.

These cheap inverter gensets with their eco-mode switch settings might
be quieter on no/very light loads but at half to full load they can
become almost as noisy as their even cheaper open frame generator
cousins. Even expensive Honda eu models suffer from this noise level
increase with modest to full loadings. The key difference, apart from in
this case costing over 8 times as much, is that they start some 15 to
20dB or so quieter.

Until recently, you had no choice but to pay the Honda eu price premium
if you wanted a neighbourhood friendly source of backup power. Now Honda
are facing serious competition from other manufacturers such as Generac
who've recently produced an even quieter inverter genset than Honda's
existing quietest models.

For anyone seriously considering an upgrade to their existing UPS backup
power solution and prepared to pay a little more than I did, might do
well to hold off on their purchase since it's highly likely the price
premium for quietness will become somewhat eroded over the coming years.
However, that Lidl inverter genset was *so* cheap, that wouldn't stop me
upgrading to a much quieter 2KVA model anyway once the price premium
drops to a more reasonable level. It would simply mean I'd have a 'spare
backup generator' to my backup generator. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 7:22:40 AM UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,

Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that
this is a rather long post. However, there are quite a few insights into
Lidl's stocking policy which might help you deal with their rather odd
approach to customer service as well as insights into why there are so
many, easily remedied, problems with this particular product (and, no
doubt, with other similar products).

I've made references to a total of four [NOTES] which contain most of
the vital information regarding the issues of the generator and the
reasons why, despite these issues, they can still be an excellent choice
for anyone wishing to keep a computer or two running and all the house
lights on during protracted outages which may well start to become common
all too soon in urban areas that have, over the past 30 years or more,
been traditionally free of such outages.

What I'm trying to say is, please take note of the [NOTES], they're an
important part of the saga as well as a source of useful information for
anyone choosing a generator to backup an existing UPS setup.


As some of you may have noted, I recently purchased one of these
excellent (fsvo 'excellent') Parkside PGI 1200 B2 generators from our
recently opened main Lidl store the Sunday before last whilst
accompanying SWMBI on a shopping trip.

I'd been hoping to see the return of these gensets, since even at their
earlier price of 129 quid last year - all silly faults aside[1], they're
the best value for money for any genset in the class of "Inverter"[2].

We hadn't seen any announcement in Lidl's leaflets regarding them so you
can imagine my surprise when I spotted a half pallet's worth just stood
there waiting to be grabbed. Even more remarkable was their price drop of
30 quid, down to an irresistible double digit price tag of just 99 quid!
Move aside, Marland. You're no longer the sole UK owner of a 99 quid PGI
1200B2 genset - club membership has just been widened to include the
great unwashed. :-)

It was the very first item that went into the trolley that SWMBI had
selected for its petiteness and ease of handling. We hadn't planned on a
very big "Shop" (we rarely do) so it wasn't long before I was
paraphrasing under my breath from the "Jaws" movie, "We're gonna need a
bigger trolley!".

When we got home, I headed for the basement looking for a can of 15W-40
or suitable substitute only to be faced with a flooding coal hole that
was threatening to inundate the rest of the basement, and so a new thread
in this NG was born :-( namely:

Recommendations for a SELF PRIMING (not a submersible!) cellar pump.

which you've all no doubt seen, if not read. As a consequence of the
saga of the flooded basement, I didn't get a chance to test the genset
out until the following Sunday when it proved to be faulty[1] and too
late to return on the off chance that there'd be any more left until the
Monday. Amazingly, there were still some left (two in fact) so I
exchanged it after declining their initial offer of a full refund.

This time, the problem was that I couldn't start it no matter how hard I
tried. Eventually, it dawned on me that the red light that kept lighting
up for a few seconds each time I cranked it on the pull cord, was an "Oil
Low" warning light. I gave it a rest, thinking my 35 year old sprog would
be home soon enough to yank the recalcitrant bugger into life whilst I
could positively identify that it *was* only the oil warning lamp that
was lighting up each time - any excuse to take a breather.

My sprog duly returned home from work and we were able to remove the
spark plug to check for sparks of which there were none until I
disconnected a loose bullet connector that just happened to be the low
oil sensor (literally a float sensor rather than a pressure sensor like
on pre ecu car engines). We were then able to see sparks at the plug
points, proving that the problem was a faulty sensor or a framing fault
on the oil sensor lead hidden under the plastic cowling covering the
engine/pm generator sub assembly within the outer casing.

Since we could see that the oil level was just past the high mark
through the dipstick/filling/drain hole, we left the bullet connector
disconnected and it fired up first pull after we refitted the spark plug
and HT lead.

Indeed we left it running for a few minutes to warm it up, thinking, "If
this blows up, it blows up! It's not our fault that the Oil Level warning
sensor circuit had a fault.", before connecting it to the input of the
APC SmartUPS2000 to prove that it could actually supply stable enough
power to satisfy the (not quite so) picky mains quality demanded by the
UPS before it will transfer back to mains power[3].

The test was a complete success but I hadn't seen the youtube video and
the all important comment at that stage which would have shed light on
both this and the first genset's problem, so decided to take it back for
a second exchange attempt the next day - it was after 10pm by the time we
had given up on our abortive attempt to trace the oil level sensor wiring
by trying to disassemble it without disturbing the single screw hidden
under a warranty tamper-proof sticker that would have made the job so
much easier.

It was quite a struggle trying to reassemble the engine unit back into
the casing by torchlight alone but we eventually accounted for every
single nut, bolt, washer and screw, if not the mystery location for the
end of a fuel pipe coming off a 3 port gubbins attached to the base next
to the fuel tap. We simply left it dangling where it naturally wished to
dangle and closed everything up[4].

I marched into Lidl the following day (this Tuesday) and, with a
straight face, explained that this one couldn't even be started, and "Do
you still have that other genset available for exchange?" to which the
answer was no. Thus dismayed, I accepted the refund.

I'll say this for Lidl, I've never had a problem over refunds on DoA
kit. However, it doesn't make up for their **** stock control system
where half of it must be in mobile storage at any one time, clocking up
thousands of UK motorway miles per annum as it trundles endlessly from
warehouse to store with the unsold stock (sometimes all of it) going back
again before going out on yet another trip the next time they go 'On
Special Offer'.

It seems that, unlike in the Aldi setup, the store managers in Lidl have
virtually no autonomy, obliged as they are (according to one such manager
I spoke to) to 'Follow Orders' which are basically, "Withdraw from Offer"
to make room for next week's offers (since the shop itself is its own
warehouse space - there's no "back of store storage area" in Lidl stores)..

I found all this out when I went back to the new Lidl store to verify
with my own eyes that I hadn't been fobbed off simply to avoid a possible
third return claim and got this explanation about the way Lidl stock is
rotated around the country as an excuse for not being able to dispose of
'faulty stock' when I'd enquired after the Parkside inverter gensets and
was immediately shown a pallet with one still stacked there.

Strangely enough, it looked like the second one I'd returned the day
before and I said as much which lead to that very illuminating chat,
the way Lidl manages its stock. When I tried to blagg it back at a
slightly reduced price to account for the lack of any warranty protection
(I had seen that all important youtube video and the even more
illuminating comments by that stage[1]) I was told this wasn't possible
due to safety concerns with faulty product.

It was even a "No" to my asking if he could be so good as to check the
other two or three local Lidl stores for stock, so I was left bereft of a
cheap inverter genset - the only class of genset suitable to back up my
UPS protected supply[3]. So I left the store believing that by now,
there'd be no chance of my ever finding one in another Lidl store.
However, I had the XYL (SWMBI) waiting in the car for me to try a more
distant Lidl from which she wanted to buy some uncommonly available items
and some odds and sods. I'd only swung by the new store to try my luck
with the manager before searching further afield anyway.

The other, more distant store didn't have any gensets in stock either so
that seemed to be that. Heading back home, I decided to give our longer
established local Lidl a punt, leaving SWMBI sat in the car whilst I
nipped inside to confirm the situation. Incredibly, there was a stack of
three waiting to be snatched up. I swiftly nipped back out to grab a
trolley and, with some restraint, picked *only* two after deciding which
of the three to leave behind by the state of its packaging.

After seeing just how expensive even a 900W rated inverter genset was, a
mere 198 quid for a pair of 1000/1200W inverter gensets seemed too
irresistable to let slip. Besides, I figured I'd save myself at least one
return trip by 'bulk buying'. I was expecting problems along the lines of
"The Stock Faults" leaving me a choice of which one to swiftly sort out
and keep and which to return. I'd have been quite happy to keep both if
they were both fully functional with no sign of any issues but, as it
happened, there was something to choose despite them both being fully
functioning when tested, unlike the first two I'd bought nearly a
fortnight earlier.

Once I'd decided which was the 'keeper', it was just a matter of
draining the fuel and oil and reboxing the "Return Item" for a refund.
Since I'd purchased them on a single debit card transaction, I was half
expecting a problem of one sort or another but the refund went so
slickly, I forgot to ask for an amended receipt before leaving with my
2nd "REFUND COPY" ticket from Lidl in the past 11 days.

I've made a note of the original purchase details on the back of the
ticket just in case I ever have to make a warranty claim or accept a
refund on the other genset within the next 12 months since it'll be tied
to the original purchase transaction record which, in the event, is all I
should need anyway.

[NOTES]

[1] Ah, yes! Silly faults indeed! The fault on the first genset seemed at
first to be a fatal failure of the inverter protection in the face of an
inductive PF correction circuit I'd made up for the previous 2.8KVA Power
Craft unit I'd bought from Aldi some 5 or 6 years ago for an eye watering
180 quid.

I'd simply forgotten to disconnect my homebrewed inductor from the
basement lead before plugging it into the Lidl generator. the lagging
current, whilst within the amperage rating limit of the old conventional
2.8KVA unit was obviously stressing the output of the smaller Lidl genset
since, as soon as I plugged in, the generator started to labour,
producing a noticeable amount of vibration before it, presumably 5
seconds later, tripped out to the wattless overload.

A restart after unplugging the PF inductor from the basement end of the
emergency power lead seemed to be ok and I had the joy of briefly
witnessing a successful transfer back to "Mains Power" by the UPS for
several seconds before the overvolt?/overload light lit up causing the
UPS to go back to battery power. It may have only run for a matter of
seconds but this was only one second shy of running several seconds
longer than it ever had with the 2.8KVA genset.

It looked as though I had fatally wounded my brand new generator but, in
hindsight, it was most likely just a loose plug/socket connector where
the extra vibration of the overload had been the penultimate straw with
the brief successful run being the final straw. This was a problem
described in the comments by dean handley (9 months ago) to the following
youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTGvjbY8_s

You can jump to the 6 minute mark for the useful mains waveform
reference (which looked even more flat topped than I've experienced with
a real 'scope or a CoolEdit Pro recording of the low ac voltage output of
a cheap wallwart transformer) and then jump to the 14 minute mark shortly
before he manages to start the generator up and skip to the 15 1/2 minute
mark for the scope shot where, quite predictably, you get to see a
"perfect sinewave" spoilt only by the use of a rather crappy
'oscilloscope'.

For a radio ham, he sure doesn't seem to know very much about
electricity. For a kick off, there was no need to connect a 12v car bulb
to the transformer secondary. Then there was the lack of understanding
over the lower voltage (11.1vac on the generator's 233/234 no load output
and 11.4vac when on 240 to 245vac mains). He's obviously never looked at
a scope trace of the mains waveform before otherwise he wouldn't have
been quite so surprised to see the inverter genset's output being purer
than the mains supply.

This is something I've witnessed when testing the SmartUPS2000 with an
ancient twin beam valved 'scope as the test load when hooked up to its
own 1vac 50Hz calibration source (a 1v winding on its own transformer).
It looks like his "Oscilloscope" is of rather questionable quality since
it reproduced the waveform clipping as a perfect flat top with none of
the slight downward tilt (on the positive peaks - reversed for the
negative peaks) which I've observed using both the scope and in a CoolEdit
Pro recording of an 8vac wallwart secondary via a resistor attenuation
network to reduce the line input to half a volt or so in order to
eliminate clipping in the sound adapter's input buffer amp.

Anyway, getting back to the low oil level warning failure with the first
replacement genset, this was also a described issue by dean and one that,
like the loose connector issue, seems to be related to Lidl's policy of
endlessly transporting their stock around the country as things alternate
between 'On Offer' and 'Withdrawn' to cater for the lack of "Back of
store stock storage" space.

I'm wondering just how hard you have to hit an immovable sharp edged
object in order to rupture the fuel tank. If true, that's a surprising
and worrying deficiency in a hand portable genset. It might not be true
(maybe just an opinion) but I've seen flexible plastic items shatter when
bounced off the edge of stonework, notably the plastic bucket that my XYL
chucked down the basement stairs for me to catch. It fell short and
bounced off a step 2/3rds the way down which knocked a sizeable chunk
out, leaving a hole about 70mm in diameter a quarter of the way up the
side of the bucket.

I'd expect any domestic appliance with a fuel tank would have to pass a
a safety test against rupture from impact before it could be sold in the
EC. As for the "fuel leak" from the carburettors drain port, I suppose
that might be due to inadequate tightening of the drain port screw which
possibly explains why they were all so fekin' tight when I tried
loosening them off to prove that fuel was actually reaching the
carburettor.

There doesn't appear to be a sealing washer involved since the
difference between just dribbling and completely shut off is a tiny
fraction of a turn where it suddenly hits the limiting closed position.
The first time I slackened this screw off, purely out of idle curiosity
you understand, I was surprised by a sudden pooling of fuel on the patio
table immediately under the genset.

It hadn't occurred to me that the transparent tubing leading through a
hole in the base of the genset was to divert the drained fuel away from a
hot running engine and potential ignition source. The fire risk in the
event of the drain screw working loose when it was running remained but
at least it was outside the confines of the generator. In any case, this
feature is purely there to allow a full drain down of the carb float
chamber at the end of the season prior to being put into storage and the
tiny amount of fuel involved (unless you forget to shut off the fuel tap
first!) can readily be absorbed with a cloth rag that can then
conveniently be used to mop up any oil spillage from off the XYL's
precious patio table.

[2] The inverter class of genset is the only type you can guarantee not
to overvolt in response to leading current loads such as shunt
capacitance loading from filters and weird mains input networks in older
(and possibly current) APC SmartUPS and, now being increasingly seen with
sub 6 watt LEDs that use a "Wattless Capacitor Dropper" as a ballast for
the LED strings. Given enough such LED lighting loads these days, the
classic 50Hz alternator gensets running at 1500/3000rpm might overvolt to
the lighting load alone, blowing several lamps before the problem "cures
itself" by attrition.

[3] That rather glib expression "Noisy", "unstable" "emergency generator"
power sources not being of a high enough quality to allow the UPS to
revert back to "Mains Power" being supplied by an emergency generator.
rather implies a problem due to voltage sags under transient loads
(indeed, such implication being reinforced in the reader's mind by the
actual phrase "voltage sags under transient loads" being printed in the
APC SmartUPS manual (and no doubt repeated by other makes and brands of
UPSes).

Not only that but references to harmonic distortion, frequency
instability, and voltage transients as show stopping defects of emergency
and standby generators are also touted as excuses as to why only the most
expensive of 50KVA and above gensets can tolerate having as much as 10%
of their rated output going into UPS protected loads (and only whilst
there is a 50% or greater loading made up of purely resistive loads such
as heater elements and incandescent lighting), totally ignoring the real
problem with small cheap generators which is that quite modest amounts of
capacitive loading will upset the AVR by over-riding its control of the
alternator's output voltage by sending the rotor into saturation totally
independently of the magnetisation current being supplied by the AVR
circuit to the extent that this can happen even when the AVR stops
feeding any current at all into the rotor field winding!

Most UPSes will tolerate pretty well all of the nonsense deficiencies
touted against basic petrol/gasoline generators, even slow drifts up and
down in frequency within +/-3% which even basic gensets can readily
achieve unless badly calibrated to begin with - easily fixed by a simple
speed governor adjustment in any case.

Harmonic distortion? Not a problem unless you're generating a damn close
approximation to a square wave. Provided the generator is not wildly
overvolting, its output can be otherwise extremely dirty and still be
utilised by most UPSes as substitute mains power, even if you do have to
de-sensitise the UPS to such 'dirtiness'.

Brief dropouts? No problem for an IBM PC or clone: they can typically
ride out a half second or more break in supply and you won't be left
wondering about 'silent' random data corruption since it will reset in
the event of a power outage so brief that it only just exceed the PC's PSU
'hold up time' - if it doesn't reboot, nothing has happened to the
internal voltage rails that could have corrupted memory contents and
disturbed the operation of the main CPU and all the other micro
controller chips used in a desktop PC.

The real issue with cheap alternator gensets is their propensity to
excessively over-volt in response to capacitive loads such as PCs and
UPSes (and, these days, cheap capacitor ballasted LED lamps). Inductive
loads don't upset the AVR feature of conventional alternator gensets
although they obviously reduce the power factor which can limit the real
power output by causing an over-current trip.

The problem with the 2.8KVA Power Craft generator was that every time
the SmartUPS2000 tried to transfer back to "Mains Power" (the generator
output) the capacitive loading sent the generator's output voltage north
of the 275vac mark which caused the UPS to switch back to battery,
disconnecting the capacitors from the generator which then dropped back
to its calibrated 230vac level causing the UPS to repeat the cycle until
I gave up and transferred it back to the mains supply.

The inverter genset doesn't suffer from capacitive load induced AVR
failure, just the standard effect of reactive load currents limiting the
maximum power output to less than their VA rating. It's this feature that
makes them more versatile than the traditional alternator genset and so
useful for powering today's modern electronic kit.

As Chris Howard discovered when making that long winded youtube video,
the inverter output produces a purer sine wave than the Public Supply
Utility (PSU) just like the synthesised sine wave output of any decent
UPSes manufactured over the past quarter of a century, if not longer for
the more specialised and expensive UPS kit.

When I was testing the last two generators, I put a cheap ex-Maplin
"Energy Monitor" (digital watt meter) in line so I could measure the
actual power consumption of my test load (SmartUPS2000 powering my
NAS4Free box and its own BackUPS500 UPS along with this Desktop PC and
Asus 23 inch 1080p monitor). The first test, with the desktop PC monitor
switched off, produced a peak wattage loading of 250W which settled down
to just over 200W due to the UPS batteries charging current tapering off
after the initial shock of having to provide power to its protected load
during the change over from mains to genset power.

Not only was there the loss of power due to the act of physically
unplugging the UPS from the mains so as to plug it into the genset
socket, there was also the delay involved in the UPS bringing its
inverter into phase with the 'mains' so as to minimise current and
voltage transients on transferring back to mains power. The time required
varies from just a second or so to several seconds, typically 5 to 7
seconds.

All in all, the battery pack which will have had to supply power for
around 10 seconds so would be absorbing close to maximum charging rate
once the mains supply was restored, swiftly dropping towards zero after
some 5 to 10 minutes. ISTR a no load output voltage reading on the energy
monitor of 233vac at 50Hz which dropped just one volt on the 250W load
(after I'd switched the monitor back on and allowed time for the battery
pack charging current to settle close to zero).

The other generator showed readings about a volt higher. I noted the PF
figure was 60, presumably a percentage figure which, given all of the
capacitive loading of the UPS when in pass through mode, seemed a
reasonable figure. Presumably, this figure is likely to improve as more
unity PF loading is applied but I haven't had the time or the inclination
to do any more exhaustive testing than this since, despite its relative
quietness compared to its predecessor, it's still quite a loud noise
source for an urban environment (basically, I don't want to presume too
much upon my neighbours' largesse in the matter of noise pollution).

I'm considering recycling the bricks in a breakfast bar pillar that'd
been removed and laid on its side in two parts by the backdoor some years
ago and which now is being used as an elevated support for a planter and
some plant pots. The idea being to build a flat roofed "Doghouse" to
securely house the generator with enough room to fit sound absorbent
material without overheating the generator for want of adequate
ventilation. For the moment, that's just an initial thought for a future
project that will allow me to run the generator without needlessly
disturbing my immediate neighbours.


[4] I did spot where this pipe went to on the two new generators I'd
bought on the Wednesday when I removed the inspection/access panel for
the carburettor and air filter but I was none the wiser about its
function since it disappeared through a hole in the inner casing right
next to the carburettor. Since this mystery hose hadn't appeared to have
been held onto anything with a hose clip, I was reluctant to pull too
hard on it in case it slipped off a pushfit connection nipple somewhere
under the engine cowling and out of reach without "Some Disassembly"
being required.

--
Johnny B Good

Breather hose from engine.

On Tue, 19 May 2020 08:33:48 -0700, herbertbarrington.naylor wrote:

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 7:22:40 AM UTC+1, Johnny B Good wrote:
Hi everyone,
Before I go any further, I feel I should point out from the start that

Breather hose from engine.

Was there any real need to quote all that history, to add half a line to
a post over two years old?

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

So you reposted the whole saga for a one sentence update?
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless