My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

And you need an earth because?
If its a pull cord the likelihood of earth being useful considering most of
the lighting has none seems debatable.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"SteveE" wrote in message
...
My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

On 08/03/2018 16:44, SteveE wrote:
My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

If it's a pullcord don't bother with the earth. Put a label on the
switch: No earth.

Bill

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:44:54 +0000, SteveE wrote:


This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Yes.
But label it appropriately.

On 08/03/2018 16:44, SteveE wrote:
My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Its not a good idea to borrow conductors from other circuits.

If you must* take a feed from another circuit, then take the Line and
Neutral from there as well (via a FCU). Remember to include the earth
for the new circuit into the bathroom's equipotential bonding.

* One could argue that for a pull cord switch, where any metallic part
of the switch is out of reach, one could omit the earthing without too
much risk. Better choose a lamp fitting that is double insulated and
does not require an earth.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/03/2018 22:17, pamela wrote:
On 16:44 8 Mar 2018, SteveE wrote:

My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror
and I want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not
earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation
has revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Depending on your situation, I wonder if it may be easier for your
mum to have a motion sensor switch. It could be a replacement for
the existing switch or some bathroom light fittings come with one
built in.

I think the issue is the light doesn't have an earth connection.

A pull cord switch doesn't need an earth.

I have often thought passive IR motion sensors are not used often
enough, but if still in a bath, such a switch is of little use, and a
pain if you actually want darkness.

On Thursday, 8 March 2018 16:45:03 UTC, SteveE wrote:

My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Better to take all 3 conductors from where you plan to take the earth.
Borrowing of earths does work, it's not regs compliant of course, and perhaps someone one day will disable part of the wiring system leaving the light unintentionally unearthed. By then it should be all RCDed anyway, but who knows. So don't do it.


NT

In article ,
SteveE wrote:
My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Not advisable.

Why not find a fitting which doesn't require an earth?

--
*Whatever kind of look you were going for, you missed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 8 Mar 2018 19:48:14 +0000
John Rumm wrote:

On 08/03/2018 16:44, SteveE wrote:
My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror
and I want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not
earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation
has revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Its not a good idea to borrow conductors from other circuits.

Thanks, this is why I was uneasy about doing it.


If you must* take a feed from another circuit, then take the Line and
Neutral from there as well (via a FCU). Remember to include the earth
for the new circuit into the bathroom's equipotential bonding.

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.

* One could argue that for a pull cord switch, where any metallic
part of the switch is out of reach, one could omit the earthing
without too much risk. Better choose a lamp fitting that is double
insulated and does not require an earth.


Yes, the pull cord will provide some isolation and she is under
instruction not to touch the metallic part until it's sorted.

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

All my lights are motion sensors, I have zero light switches in my house.
Switches are for the last century.

So when you fall asleep watching the TV you wake up in darkness?

OK I suppose but I think I'd find it a bit worrying.

--
Chris Green
·

On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on the
same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be preferable
to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow insulation. Often
called "singles" and available from all good electrical wholesalers
(some like TLC should be able to sell a length rather than a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in this
scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly which is
worthwhile.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on the
same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be preferable
to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow insulation. Often
called "singles" and available from all good electrical wholesalers
(some like TLC should be able to sell a length rather than a reel).

Chances are since it's old wiring there is no earth to any lighting
circuit.

--
*Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
If I fall asleep I want it dark so I can sleep properly. The light
simply comes on as soon as I stand up or wave my hand.

And actually it stays on most of the time due to cats wandering about.

A real energy saver, that.

--
*Real men don't waste their hormones growing hair

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/03/2018 00:52, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 16:44:54 -0000, SteveE wrote:

My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror and I
want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further investigation has
revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Of course.* All earths are the same, they're just connected together in
the CU.* They don't go through seperate fuses/breakers/switches or
anything.


I was going to say it was not allowed. And you have just confirmed that.

--
Adam

On 09/03/2018 11:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on the
same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be preferable
to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow insulation. Often
called "singles" and available from all good electrical wholesalers
(some like TLC should be able to sell a length rather than a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in this
scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly which is
worthwhile.


It's worse than that. It would have to be 4mm green/yellow and follow
the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that circuit is RCD
protected.

It's a while since this one came up at work but I am sure that was the
outcome.

--
Adam

On 09/03/18 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 11:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on the
same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be preferable
to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow insulation.
Often called "singles" and available from all good electrical
wholesalers (some like TLC should be able to sell a length rather than
a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in
this scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly
which is worthwhile.


It's worse than that. It would have to be 4mm green/yellow

Is that coming from the same rules that govern the size of a lone earth
rod conductor (mechanical strength)?

and follow
the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that circuit is RCD
protected.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking that one up!


It's a while since this one came up at work but I am sure that was the
outcome.

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
I don't have auto-lights to save energy, I have them to save the bother
of trying to turn on a switch when my hands are full.

Thought at your age it would be better to wank in the dark? Saves scaring
the pets too.

--
*A day without sunshine is like... night.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/03/2018 20:33, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 11:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on
the same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be
preferable to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow
insulation. Often called "singles" and available from all good
electrical wholesalers (some like TLC should be able to sell a length
rather than a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in
this scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly
which is worthwhile.


It's worse than that. It would have to be 4mm green/yellow

Is that coming from the same rules that govern the size of a lone earth
rod conductor (mechanical strength)?

And supplementary bonding

and follow the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that
circuit is RCD protected.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking that one up!

I am pretty sure that it is in one of my NICEIC snags and solutions
books. I'll take them to work today as I really will be doing nothing at
all when I get there apart from getting paid.


--
Adam

On 09/03/2018 18:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
If I fall asleep I want it dark so I can sleep properly. The light
simply comes on as soon as I stand up or wave my hand.

And actually it stays on most of the time due to cats wandering about.

A real energy saver, that.

:-)

--
Adam

On 10/03/2018 00:48, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 00:28:31 -0000, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
** James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
I don't have auto-lights to save energy, I have them to save the bother
of trying to turn on a switch when my hands are full.

Thought at your age it would be better to wank in the dark? Saves scaring
the pets too.

I like the way you assume I use two hands to wank.* Are you dreaming of
my huge cock?


Gentlemen! Please!

Bill

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 09:16:01 +0000, Bill Wright wrote:


Gentlemen! Please!

Bill

"Gentlemen"? What an oaf!

On 09/03/2018 20:33, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 11:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on
the same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be
preferable to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow
insulation. Often called "singles" and available from all good
electrical wholesalers (some like TLC should be able to sell a length
rather than a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in
this scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly
which is worthwhile.


It's worse than that. It would have to be 4mm green/yellow

Is that coming from the same rules that govern the size of a lone earth
rod conductor (mechanical strength)?



543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor SNIP
If the protective conductor
(iii) is not an integral part of a cable, or
(iv) is not formed by conduit, ducting or trunking, or
(v) is not contained in an enclosure formed by a wiring system.

the cross-sectional area shall not be less than 2.5mm^2 copper
equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and
4mm^2 copper equivalent if mechanical damage is not provided


and follow the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that
circuit is RCD protected.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking that one up!

543.6.1 Where overcurrent protective devices are used for fault
protection, the protective conductor shall be incorporated in the same
wiring system as the live conductors or in their immediate proximity

I do believe that should answer your questions.

I dunno where the RCD bit came into it.

--
Adam

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Thought at your age it would be better to wank in the dark? Saves scaring
the pets too.

I like the way you assume I use two hands to wank. Are you dreaming of my huge cock?

Was assuming you use one hand to hold down your incontinence pants. But
needing the light on does explain things - so you can find it.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 10 Mar 2018 11:25:05 +0000 (GMT), Dave Lowman (News) wrote:


I like the way you assume I use two hands to wank. Are you dreaming of my huge cock?

Was assuming you use one hand to hold down your incontinence pants. But
needing the light on does explain things - so you can find it.

Yeah, KEEP feeding the abnormal filthy ******! tsk

On 10/03/18 07:02, ARW wrote:
and follow the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that
circuit is RCD protected.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking that one up!

I am pretty sure that it is in one of my NICEIC snags and solutions
books. I'll take them to work today as I really will be doing nothing at
all when I get there apart from getting paid.



I've got one of those - I'll have a look...

On 10/03/18 10:17, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 20:33, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 19:24, ARW wrote:

Is that coming from the same rules that govern the size of a lone
earth rod conductor (mechanical strength)?



543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor SNIP
If the protective conductor
(iii) is not an integral part of a cable, or
(iv) is not formed by conduit, ducting or trunking, or
(v) is not contained in an enclosure formed by a wiring system.

the cross-sectional area shall not be less than 2.5mm^2 copper
equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and
4mm^2 copper equivalent if mechanical damage is not provided


Ah - thank you

On 10/03/2018 10:17, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 20:33, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 09/03/2018 11:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/03/18 05:42, SteveE wrote:

I think I'll take this approach as it will be as easy as just taking a
single earth wire down.


You could legitimately take a single earth to the nearest light on
the same circuit that does have an earth. For this, it would be
preferable to use a single insulated earth wire with green/yellow
insulation. Often called "singles" and available from all good
electrical wholesalers (some like TLC should be able to sell a
length rather than a reel).

I don't have the regs to hand so not 100% sure if a CPC (earth) in
this scenario *must* be insulated, but it shows the purpose clearly
which is worthwhile.


It's worse than that. It would have to be 4mm green/yellow

Is that coming from the same rules that govern the size of a lone
earth rod conductor (mechanical strength)?



543.1.1 The cross-sectional area of every protective conductor SNIP
If the protective conductor
(iii) is not an integral part of a cable, or
(iv) is not formed by conduit, ducting or trunking, or
(v) is not contained in an enclosure formed by a wiring system.

the cross-sectional area shall not be less than 2.5mm^2 copper
equivalent if protection against mechanical damage is provided, and
4mm^2 copper equivalent if mechanical damage is not provided

So it doesn't specify it has to follow the cable run of the live conductor?

and follow the route/cable run of the live conductor unless that
circuit is RCD protected.

I wouldn't even know where to start looking that one up!

543.6.1 Where overcurrent protective devices are used for fault
protection, the protective conductor shall be incorporated in the same
wiring system as the live conductors or in their immediate proximity

Is a wiring system in this case the 'whole house'?

pamela Wrote in message:
On 23:06 8 Mar 2018, Fredxx wrote:

On 08/03/2018 22:17, pamela wrote:
On 16:44 8 Mar 2018, SteveE wrote:

My 89 y/o mother can no longer reach the switch above the mirror
and I want to change it for a LED pullcord light.

The old light was installed by a bathroom fitter and was not
earthed.

This light requires an earth connection but further
investigation has revealed that her upstairs lighting circuit
has no earth.

Can I borrow an earth from an accessible ring-circuit in these
circumstances?

Depending on your situation, I wonder if it may be easier for
your mum to have a motion sensor switch. It could be a
replacement for the existing switch or some bathroom light
fittings come with one built in.

I think the issue is the light doesn't have an earth connection.

A pull cord switch doesn't need an earth.

I have often thought passive IR motion sensors are not used often
enough, but if still in a bath, such a switch is of little use,
and a pain if you actually want darkness.

I think there are some sensors which use RF and are exceptionally
sensitive compared to infrared. I can see times when an on or off
override would be useful but for most of the time sensor-based light
could be very convenient.

I popped a couple of battery operated PIR lighting strips into the
bathroom (one is stuck under the bathroom cabinet and provides
temporary lighting when you wash your hands). I would like to have
ther main light on a sensor but the extractor fan comes on for 20
minutes when the room light is operated and it can be a bit
annoying.

Switch it off before putting the light on?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Friday, March 9, 2018 at 7:41:26 PM UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 09 Mar 2018 18:53:43 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
If I fall asleep I want it dark so I can sleep properly. The light
simply comes on as soon as I stand up or wave my hand.

And actually it stays on most of the time due to cats wandering about.

A real energy saver, that.

They're LED. And I prefer my pets to be able to see where they're going.

I don't have auto-lights to save energy, I have them to save the bother of trying to turn on a switch when my hands are full.

--
What lives in the sea, and goes dah di dah dit, dah dah dit dah?
A morse cod.


A sea cu - cumber.(dah di dah dit, dah dah dit dah)

R

On Sun, 25 Mar 2018 10:54:54 -0700 (PDT), , yet another
mentally handicapped, troll-feeding, senile Yank, blabbered:


A sea cu - cumber.(dah di dah dit, dah dah dit dah)

R

Yeah, Yankie idiot, make the Scottish idiot happy!