Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

Yup, and relative position in the system can have just as much effect as
well even with the same valve. Basically you need to suck it and see on
each one!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

At the other end, if your flow matched the room temperature, your
differential would be zero irrespective of flow rate.

That's why I was reasoning, that for a fixed flow[1], that for a low
flow temp, you might expect a lower differential?

[1] which is what you're really trying to balance to avoid either pump
overload or starvation of another radiator.

Or have I short circuited my brain?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.


At the other end, if your flow matched the room temperature, your
differential would be zero irrespective of flow rate.


That's why I was reasoning, that for a fixed flow[1], that for a low
flow temp, you might expect a lower differential?

[1] which is what you're really trying to balance to avoid either pump
overload or starvation of another radiator.

Or have I short circuited my brain?

there has to be one first.

On 06/12/17 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 14:26:41 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

another thing you can't work out from basic principles is it.

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 14:26:41 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

He doesn't know. That or he has a steam powered bicycle.

On 06/12/17 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:

another thing you can't work out from basic principles is it.


So what did I do to **** you off? Or do you do it for fun?

On 06/12/17 18:54, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 11:25:14 -0000, Tim Watts wrote:

Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

Don't bother calculating it, just adjust until they're all equally hot.

It was an academic question - out of interest

All the FAQs etc just say 20F/12C with no qualification...

Mind you, I've never had to balance radiators, because my system was
built properly - wider pipes before branching to radiators, enough flow
to give all radiators the maximum throughput.


Define "properly"... So was mine, but with a lot of constraints imposed
by the building. And yes, you will have to balance them to some degree,
even if that means setting all the lockshields to 1/2 turn or whatever -
very few real world 2 floor houses are going to just work with all
valves wide open.

On 06/12/17 19:03, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

I have a boiler with a 25mm pipe output.

You mean 22mm.

This branches into 15mm pipes
for different areas (house, garage, hot water).* Then that branches into
8mm pipes for each radiator.* All radiator valves are opened fully.* All
radiators get piping hot.* You only need to balance if your supply pipe
isn't big enough to give water to everything downstream of it.


That's fine if you like microbore. I was strongly advised against it.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 14:25:07 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 06/12/17 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm not sure he knows or is in any sort of control of himself.

What has happened is that he has confused you for me (because we both
happen to be called 'Tim') and has confused balancing a CH radiator
with the overtemp cycling of an oil filled electric radiator (from his
other thread).

He is one confused puppy! ;-)

HTH.

Cheers, T i m

On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
.. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:27:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

He doesn't know. That or he has a steam powered bicycle.

;-)

He works in a student lab that has no heating and has been supplied
some oil fill radiators to heat them with (the only type of heating
allowed).

His power feed is via some sort of 'snake oil' autotransformer that
when under full load, drops to around 200V ;-(

The rads are marked as being 2kW but he measures less, even when on
full (of course).

Because the rads are too powerful for their surface area, they 'cycle'
on an overtemp stat that doesn't seem to include the smaller of two
elements for some reason.

He asks questions like 'how many heaters will I need' but so far has
completely failed to even attempt to calculate the heating
requirements of the lab(s), in spite of several people pointing him in
the right direction re heat loss calculations and building material
'u' values etc.

In an effort to help him improve the heat input to the lab(s) using
the heaters he's been given, I've suggested he test them on the higher
power element only (lower powered one switched out) as that might mean
that the rads won't then cycle, may therefore maintain a higher
continuous surface temperature (and therefore heating effect) whilst
limiting the maximum load on the already dubious supply and
potentially allowing for more heaters to be used simultaneously (so
again, more heat into the labs).

Because he has no idea of any 'science', he still doesn't 'get it'.
;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 19:03:53 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

I have a boiler with a 25mm pipe output.

You have no brain, Birdbrain!

--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID:

--
AndyW addressing Birdbrain:
"Troll or idiot?...
You have been presented with a viewpoint with information, reasoning,
historical cases, citations and references to back it up and wilfully
ignore all going back to your idea which has no supporting information."
MID:

--
Phil Lee adressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are too stupid to be wasting oxygen."
MID:

--
Phil Lee describing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I've never seen such misplaced pride in being a ****ing moronic motorist."
MID:

--
Tony944 addressing Birdbrain Macaw:
"I seen and heard many people but you are on top of list being first class
ass hole jerk. ...You fit under unconditional Idiot and should be put in
mental institution.
MID:

--
Pelican to Birdbrain Macaw:
"Ok. I'm persuaded . You are an idiot."
MID:

--
DerbyDad03 addressing Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"Frigging Idiot. Get the hell out of my thread."
MID:

--
Kerr Mudd-John about Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"It's like arguing with a demented frog."
MID:

--
Mr Pounder Esquire about Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"the **** poor delivery boy with no hot running water, 11 cats and
several parrots living in his hovel."
MID:

--
Rob Morley about Birdbrain:
"He's a perennial idiot"
MID: 20170519215057.56a1f1d4@Mars

--
JoeyDee to Birdbrain
"I apologize for thinking you were a jerk. You're just someone with an IQ
lower than your age, and I accept that as a reason for your comments."
MID: l-september.org

--
Sam Plusnet about Birdbrain (now "James Wilkinson Sword" LOL):
"He's just desperate to be noticed. Any attention will do, no matter how
negative it may be."
MID:

--
asking Birdbrain:
"What, were you dropped on your head as a child?"
MID:

--
Christie addressing endlessly driveling Birdbrain Macaw (now "James
Wilkinson" LOL):
"What are you resurrecting that old post of mine for? It's from last
month some time. You're like a dog who's just dug up an old bone they
hid in the garden until they were ready to have another go at it."
MID:

--
Mr Pounder's fitting description of Birdbrain Macaw:
"You are a well known fool, a tosser, a pillock, a stupid unemployable
sponging failure who will always live alone and will die alone. You will not
be missed."
MID:

--
Richard to pathetic ****** Hucker:
"You haven't bred?
Only useful thing you've done in your pathetic existence."
MID:

On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 19:30:32 UTC, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

The wiki describes balancing, but last time I looked it was missing a rather key step. Equal rad temps is a fine point to aim at initially, but what's required in the end is balanced room temps rather than balanced rad temps. The latter does not necessarily produce the former.


NT

On 06/12/17 19:30, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I
wonder if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a
sensible differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

Thanks for that link - it's interesting

On 06/12/2017 13:12, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up
to nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain
at the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a
massive difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the
heat output of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

At the other end, if your flow matched the room temperature, your
differential would be zero irrespective of flow rate.

That's why I was reasoning, that for a fixed flow[1], that for a low
flow temp, you might expect a lower differential?

[1] which is what you're really trying to balance to avoid either pump
overload or starvation of another radiator.

Or have I short circuited my brain?

I don't think you are aiming for a fixed flow necessarily... you want
whatever flow is required to achieve a reasonable temperature gradient
which is something that will vary with rad design and style, what room
its in, and where it is in the system wrt to other rads.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:21:18 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

FLUSH idiot's endless idiotic drivel unread

Some of Birdbrain's superhuman physical "feats" (as told by the idiot
himself):

--
"I go hillwalking barefoot for hours in the snow, my feet just go red.
Extra blood, they can't freeze."
MID:

--
Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson") about himself:
"I can sleep outside in a temperature of -20C wearing only shorts".
"I once took a dump behind some bushes and slid down a hill to wipe my
arse".
(Courtesy of Mr Pounder)

--
"Having read the utter bull**** about dying if you fall in a freezing lake
for 15 minutes, I've tried it on many occasions. It takes 30 minutes to
even get chattering teeth, an hour to shiver nicely, and 2 hours to shiver
hard."
MID:

--
"The alleged timing is, fall into ice water and die of cold in 15 minutes.
Do what I do, go swimming in winter in a partially frozen lake, and do so
for a lot more than 15 minutes. Jesus Christ your teeth don't even start
chattering until about 30 minutes."
MID:

--
"I've had my fingers unable to operate the key to unlock my car (after
swimming in ice water for a couple of hours and running around the mountains
naked in a blizzard). But it's not uncomfortable."
MID:

--
"Your eyes have something called an iris, you can't damage them looking at
the sun. An eclipse is dimmer than the normal sun, so even safer. I never
used any specs the last time 10 years ago and my eyes are fine."
MID:

--
Brain damaged Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) about himself:
"I prefer a good whack to the head with a breaker bar (the 3 foot extendable
rod used to get leverage on a car wheel nut)."
Message-ID:

--
More of Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) sociopathic world:
"Most animals don't attack me, even though their owners tell me they're
dangerous. I had to laugh at one woman who ran out to tell me her dog was
going to bite my hand off, then saw me petting it. I once bought a parrot
that was extremely vicious. I walked into his house and picked it up, then
cuddled it. He said he'd never seen it do that in 10 years."
MID:

On 06/12/2017 20:55, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 19:30, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I
wonder if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a
sensible differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

Thanks for that link - it's interesting

I have a large'ish evohome system and thoroughly recommend it. It's
great to be able to control the temperature and time schedule of any
room from my phone, or the controller, or by twiddling the rad stat.
It's also very interesting to use Conrad Connect to plot actual room
temperature against the set temperature. Evohome isn't cheap, but it's
worth investigating if you're tweaking the heating system.

On 06/12/2017 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 14:26:41 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 13:49, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 6 December 2017 13:12:13 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 12:13, John Rumm wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

Yup usually. With a modern condenser they often suggest you can go up to
nearer 20.

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

The bigger the differential, the more the condensing efficiency gain at
the boiler. However with a flow at 55 its not going to make a massive
difference anyway, and you may want it tighter to keep the heat output
of the rads up.

I was looking at it the other way around: if you have a high flow
temperature, then you'd expect a larger differential for a given flow
rate (l/min) as the temperature difference between radiator and room
would be greater, leading to greater loss of heat from the water.

And this si why I said I'd like the radiator really hot, hotter the better so more chance of heat coming from the rad to the air, but yuo claimed it;s better toturn the rad down for better cycling.

What on earth are you talking about?

another thing you can't work out from basic principles is it.

I think we all deserve an explanation, from basic principles will be fine.

You do know what you're talking about, don't you?

On 06/12/2017 18:47, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:

another thing you can't work out from basic principles is it.


So what did I do to **** you off? Or do you do it for fun?

I suspect he has not twigged that there is more than one Tim in this group!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 06/12/17 23:07, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 20:55, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 19:30, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I
wonder if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a
sensible differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far
as temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

Thanks for that link - it's interesting

I have a large'ish evohome system and thoroughly recommend it. It's
great to be able to control the temperature and time schedule of any
room from my phone, or the controller, or by twiddling the rad stat.
It's also very interesting to use Conrad Connect to plot actual room
temperature against the set temperature. Evohome isn't cheap, but it's
worth investigating if you're tweaking the heating system.

I use Genius https://www.geniushub.co.uk/ to the same effect.

The curves are useful as you say - helps with setting timings of preheat
periods.

Don't know anything about Evohome, but the thing I like about Genius is
that you can optionally buy wall stats that the user can fiddle with
(and which if fiddled with, trigger a manual override for a configurable
period of time - eg 1h, 2h).

It's very wife friendly.

On 07/12/17 10:46, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-07, Tim Watts wrote:

[33 lines snipped]

Don't know anything about Evohome, but the thing I like about Genius is
that you can optionally buy wall stats that the user can fiddle with
(and which if fiddled with, trigger a manual override for a configurable
period of time - eg 1h, 2h).

It's very wife friendly.

For wife friendly, just put up a thermostat that isn't connected ...



This is a wife friendly thermostat:
(SFW)

https://ogtstore.com/wp-content/uplo...L212269-02.jpg

On 07/12/2017 10:35, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 23:07, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 20:55, Tim Watts wrote:
On 06/12/17 19:30, wrote:
On 06/12/2017 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I
wonder if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a
sensible differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively -
I have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another
set tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as
far as temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

There's a discussion about balancing he
http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbull...-and-balancing
. It relates to an evohome system but the discussion is relevant to
conventional TRVs.

Thanks for that link - it's interesting

I have a large'ish evohome system and thoroughly recommend it. It's
great to be able to control the temperature and time schedule of any
room from my phone, or the controller, or by twiddling the rad stat.
It's also very interesting to use Conrad Connect to plot actual room
temperature against the set temperature. Evohome isn't cheap, but it's
worth investigating if you're tweaking the heating system.

I use Genius https://www.geniushub.co.uk/ to the same effect.

The curves are useful as you say - helps with setting timings of preheat
periods.

Don't know anything about Evohome, but the thing I like about Genius is
that you can optionally buy wall stats that the user can fiddle with
(and which if fiddled with, trigger a manual override for a configurable
period of time - eg 1h, 2h).

It's very wife friendly.

I looked at Genius but can't now remember why I went with Evohome - from
a quick look at Genius they seem to have similar features. The evohome
rad valves have integral thermostats, but wall stats are available.

On 07/12/2017 10:50, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/12/17 10:46, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-07, Tim Watts wrote:

[33 lines snipped]

Don't know anything about Evohome, but the thing I like about Genius is
that you can optionally buy wall stats that the user can fiddle with
(and which if fiddled with, trigger a manual override for a configurable
period of time - eg 1h, 2h).

It's very wife friendly.

For wife friendly, just put up a thermostat that isn't connected ...



This is a wife friendly thermostat:
(SFW)

https://ogtstore.com/wp-content/uplo...L212269-02.jpg

:-)

On 07/12/17 11:57, wrote:

I looked at Genius but can't now remember why I went with Evohome - from
a quick look at Genius they seem to have similar features. The evohome
rad valves have integral thermostats, but wall stats are available.


Same: Genius was previously not able to make use of the rad valve temp
sensing - but can now (with the usual pros and cons of it being next to
the heat source and/or window drafts).

One thing Evohome seems to have that Genius doesn't is a stand alone
command centre panel - that's cute. Genius really need something like
that that you can nail to a wall - but they seem to have gone down the
app/web route.

On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:23:09 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 07/12/17 11:57, wrote:

I looked at Genius but can't now remember why I went with Evohome - from
a quick look at Genius they seem to have similar features. The evohome
rad valves have integral thermostats, but wall stats are available.


Same: Genius was previously not able to make use of the rad valve temp
sensing - but can now (with the usual pros and cons of it being next to
the heat source and/or window drafts).

One thing Evohome seems to have that Genius doesn't is a stand alone
command centre panel - that's cute. Genius really need something like
that that you can nail to a wall - but they seem to have gone down the
app/web route.

I had a go at the Genius "Define my system" page and it has a drop
down for TRV valves. I have some that are labelled E29 with what
looks like a o above the E but I can't find them in google. Any
ideas?

--
AnthonyL

On 07/12/17 18:31, AnthonyL wrote:
On Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:23:09 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 07/12/17 11:57, wrote:

I looked at Genius but can't now remember why I went with Evohome - from
a quick look at Genius they seem to have similar features. The evohome
rad valves have integral thermostats, but wall stats are available.


Same: Genius was previously not able to make use of the rad valve temp
sensing - but can now (with the usual pros and cons of it being next to
the heat source and/or window drafts).

One thing Evohome seems to have that Genius doesn't is a stand alone
command centre panel - that's cute. Genius really need something like
that that you can nail to a wall - but they seem to have gone down the
app/web route.

I had a go at the Genius "Define my system" page and it has a drop
down for TRV valves. I have some that are labelled E29 with what
looks like a o above the E but I can't find them in google. Any
ideas?


The Genius rad valves are Danfoss LivingConnects (LC2 IIRC)

On 06/12/17 11:25, Tim Watts wrote:
Most sites recommend a differential across the rad of 12C - but I wonder
if this was aimed at higher flow temperatures of yonder times?

I manage with flow of 55C most of the year - so what would be a sensible
differential to aim for? 8C?

I've also learnt that different lockshield valves vary massively - I
have one set that typically 1/2-3/4 turn is about right. Another set
tend to be happy at 1/4 and 3/4 is "practically fully open" as far as
temperature diffs go. Quite surprising...

Quick follow up -

Got the rads really well balanced between dT=8-12C (except the tiny
bypass rad which has only a few degrees across it.

One thing I found was that it seems like a good idea to jack the boiler
up to 65-70C and balance conventionally at dT=12C

Reason - even with windows open, at a low flow temp, the rooms get so
hot in the time it takes, that the boiler ends up cycling a lot which
buggers up temperature measurements - and the radiators struggle to lose
heat to the room.

So the motto is: balance hot, then turn the boiler down to what works.

2nd motto: a differential temperature meter with 2 pipe clamp
thermocouples really speeds this up. My IR meter was very random and
unrepeatable with the pipe - possibly a mixture of the pipe area and the
emissivity of copper that varies *massively* with how polished/oxidised
the surface is.

On 09/12/2017 21:30, Tim Watts wrote:

2nd motto: a differential temperature meter with 2 pipe clamp
thermocouples really speeds this up. My IR meter was very random and
unrepeatable with the pipe - possibly a mixture of the pipe area and the
emissivity of copper that varies *massively* with how polished/oxidised
the surface is.

Masking tape targets on each pipe tail, sorts that - the IR thermometer
can then get a sensible reading.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 09/12/17 22:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/12/2017 21:30, Tim Watts wrote:

2nd motto: a differential temperature meter with 2 pipe clamp
thermocouples really speeds this up. My IR meter was very random and
unrepeatable with the pipe - possibly a mixture of the pipe area and the
emissivity of copper that varies *massively* with how polished/oxidised
the surface is.

Masking tape targets on each pipe tail, sorts that - the IR thermometer
can then get a sensible reading.


I did try black insulation tape - but it still seemed a bit random.
Maybe my IR meter is a bit crap?

Tim Watts wrote:

I did try black insulation tape - but it still seemed a bit random.
Maybe my IR meter is a bit crap?

What's the size of the "sampling circle" for your thermometer at
whatever distance you were measuring from?

On 10/12/2017 20:24, Tim Watts wrote:
On 09/12/17 22:38, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/12/2017 21:30, Tim Watts wrote:

2nd motto: a differential temperature meter with 2 pipe clamp
thermocouples really speeds this up. My IR meter was very random and
unrepeatable with the pipe - possibly a mixture of the pipe area and the
emissivity of copper that varies *massively* with how polished/oxidised
the surface is.

Masking tape targets on each pipe tail, sorts that - the IR
thermometer can then get a sensible reading.


I did try black insulation tape - but it still seemed a bit random.
Maybe my IR meter is a bit crap?

Did you get in close enough with it? The laser dot can lead you into a
false sense of how small the reference patch is - its actually quite large.

(alternatively a reading off the painted corner of the ran dearest the
inlet/outlet is normally good enough)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/12/17 20:58, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

I did try black insulation tape - but it still seemed a bit random.
Maybe my IR meter is a bit crap?

What's the size of the "sampling circle" for your thermometer at
whatever distance you were measuring from?

On paper, sufficient for the target at the distance - but in practice,
the readings were all over the place.

On 07/12/2017 10:50, Tim Watts wrote:
This is a wife friendly thermostat:
(SFW)

https://ogtstore.com/wp-content/uplo...L212269-02.jpg

know what you mean.

When we had our boiler replaced they put in new controls. They put the
thermostat over where the old one was, which meant in a stick-and-s**t
house like ours there was a cold draft up its backside. WTH, I though,
it's wireless. I'll move it.

Onto a bit of wall that turned out to have a rad pipe behind it, and
could be 5 degrees hotter than the rest of the wall...

Seems to be OK in the 3rd position. Still training SWMBO.

Andy