I plan to fit a new stainless steel kitchen sink in the new year. The
current sink is an Astracast-type sink (composite) which is 90cm long.
The new ss sink will probably be a Franke Ascona ASX 651 1.5 Kitchen
Sink:
https://www.johnlewis.com/franke-asc...eel/p231335486

This sink is 100cm long. The extra length is on the drainer side.

The problem I have is that the laminate has lifted in an area close to
the current sink. This video shows the extent:
www.littletyke.myzen.co.uk/bubbled_worktop.avi

It's not that the laminate is loose. Just bubbled up. As the video
shows, at worst the bubble is approx 5mm high.

The area of this defect, caused by water ingress swelling the
chipboard core, is approx 9cm x 15cm.

However, the new sink should cover over this section, because the new
sink is approx 10cm longer

But I'd really like to get rid of the bubble, and therefore propose
the following:

When the time comes to do the replacement,

1. Remove existing sink.

2. Undermine the defective section by drilling edge-on into the core.
Drill enough smallish holes to weaken the material.

3. The laminate should now be amenable to the application of weight or
cramps.

4. So what I would do is fill the holes just drilled with wood
hardener, then cramp the worktop to compress down the laminate and
leave it for a day or two.

5. I would expect this will flatten out the bubble, at least enough so
that the new sink will easily fit snugly against the worktop.

Does anyone foresee problems with this approach?

Or has anyone got any better ideas? I don't want to have to replace
the entire worktop, which runs around the kitchen on three sides. The
remaining worktop is fine. It's just this one area next to the sink.

Thanks!

MM

MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.

On 05/12/2017 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.



I'm slightly puzzled whether the newly enlarged hole for the sink won't
cut out this section? In fact, I'd be sure to get a sink large enough to
do that!

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 18:31:21 UTC, GB wrote:
On 05/12/2017 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.



I'm slightly puzzled whether the newly enlarged hole for the sink won't
cut out this section? In fact, I'd be sure to get a sink large enough to
do that!

It's either that or a new worktop.
You need to seal the cut edges of the work surface under the sink to keewater out.p.
The chipboard stuff they are made of is definitely non-waterproof.

On 05/12/17 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.

ten tins over a hwhile worktop is nopt a huge perssure per little
section area.

cramps can easily provide that. Yoiu can lift a 2 tonnne car on a bottle
jack on an areae on half a square inch, and the same goes for most cast
G cramps. They can exertr a tremendous force over a small area.


--
Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:31:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 05/12/2017 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.



I'm slightly puzzled whether the newly enlarged hole for the sink won't
cut out this section? In fact, I'd be sure to get a sink large enough to
do that!

Ah, well, I had thought of that, but I don't know (until I actually
pucrhase the sink) whether the drainer section across the 10cm extra
length (compared to the current sink) will need any further cut-out in
the worktop. If it does, then problem solved.

All I'm doing right now is considering all the ramifications to avoid
replacing the worktop at all costs. And since the current sink will be
coming out, why not, I thought, take the opportunity to flatten that
darned bubble.

By the way, do new sinks always/sometimes come with a paper template?

MM

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:16:49 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 18:31:21 UTC, GB wrote:
On 05/12/2017 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.



I'm slightly puzzled whether the newly enlarged hole for the sink won't
cut out this section? In fact, I'd be sure to get a sink large enough to
do that!

It's either that or a new worktop.
You need to seal the cut edges of the work surface under the sink to keewater out.p.
The chipboard stuff they are made of is definitely non-waterproof.

Indeed. It's a right pain. In my previous house I did have to replace
the worktop because water got in. But at least that was a simple
straight 3m run with no corners.

MM

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:25:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 05/12/17 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.

ten tins over a hwhile worktop is nopt a huge perssure per little
section area.

cramps can easily provide that. Yoiu can lift a 2 tonnne car on a bottle
jack on an areae on half a square inch, and the same goes for most cast
G cramps. They can exertr a tremendous force over a small area.

And let's not forget that I intend to weaken the core somewhat
underneath where the laminate has bubbled, before applying pressure.
It doesn't matter what it looks like at the end, because the longer
sink will cover it up. But it does need to be as flat as possible.

MM

On Tuesday, 5 December 2017 22:25:33 UTC, MM wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:31:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 05/12/2017 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.



I'm slightly puzzled whether the newly enlarged hole for the sink won't
cut out this section? In fact, I'd be sure to get a sink large enough to
do that!

Ah, well, I had thought of that, but I don't know (until I actually
pucrhase the sink) whether the drainer section across the 10cm extra
length (compared to the current sink) will need any further cut-out in
the worktop. If it does, then problem solved.

All I'm doing right now is considering all the ramifications to avoid
replacing the worktop at all costs. And since the current sink will be
coming out, why not, I thought, take the opportunity to flatten that
darned bubble.

By the way, do new sinks always/sometimes come with a paper template?

MM

Sometimes at least.

The problem is it needs to be made fully dry and also you need to stop
ingress of water around the unprotected edges of the chipboard if you can.
I guess it depends on how sure you are that no water can get under the new
top.
I had this issue in a bathroom basin surround and its started to expand
again, one supposes due to steam in the edges inside the cupboard under the
basin. Really these things should be made out of something less like glued
together sawdust!
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"MM" wrote in message
news
I plan to fit a new stainless steel kitchen sink in the new year. The
current sink is an Astracast-type sink (composite) which is 90cm long.
The new ss sink will probably be a Franke Ascona ASX 651 1.5 Kitchen
Sink:
https://www.johnlewis.com/franke-asc...eel/p231335486

This sink is 100cm long. The extra length is on the drainer side.

The problem I have is that the laminate has lifted in an area close to
the current sink. This video shows the extent:
www.littletyke.myzen.co.uk/bubbled_worktop.avi

It's not that the laminate is loose. Just bubbled up. As the video
shows, at worst the bubble is approx 5mm high.

The area of this defect, caused by water ingress swelling the
chipboard core, is approx 9cm x 15cm.

However, the new sink should cover over this section, because the new
sink is approx 10cm longer

But I'd really like to get rid of the bubble, and therefore propose
the following:

When the time comes to do the replacement,

1. Remove existing sink.

2. Undermine the defective section by drilling edge-on into the core.
Drill enough smallish holes to weaken the material.

3. The laminate should now be amenable to the application of weight or
cramps.

4. So what I would do is fill the holes just drilled with wood
hardener, then cramp the worktop to compress down the laminate and
leave it for a day or two.

5. I would expect this will flatten out the bubble, at least enough so
that the new sink will easily fit snugly against the worktop.

Does anyone foresee problems with this approach?

Or has anyone got any better ideas? I don't want to have to replace
the entire worktop, which runs around the kitchen on three sides. The
remaining worktop is fine. It's just this one area next to the sink.

Thanks!

MM

On 05/12/17 22:29, MM wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:25:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 05/12/17 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.

ten tins over a hwhile worktop is nopt a huge perssure per little
section area.

cramps can easily provide that. Yoiu can lift a 2 tonnne car on a bottle
jack on an areae on half a square inch, and the same goes for most cast
G cramps. They can exertr a tremendous force over a small area.

And let's not forget that I intend to weaken the core somewhat
underneath where the laminate has bubbled, before applying pressure.
It doesn't matter what it looks like at the end, because the longer
sink will cover it up. But it does need to be as flat as possible.

MM

This is the sort of situation where, if the substrate is actually dry, I
would use not car body filler, but liquid polyester resin for better
penetration to actually stabilise the thing under the cramp, and then
fill up with body filler later to make the underside good.

Polyester resin (sold for use with glass reinforcement) is handy stuff,
being syrupy in consistency, setting hard in a few minutes and utterly
impervious to water.

Its just the thing to seal a chipboard top's cut edges.






--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 05/12/2017 22:25, MM wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:31:17 +0000, GB

By the way, do new sinks always/sometimes come with a paper template?


Ask Franke about theirs.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:12:08 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 05/12/17 22:29, MM wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:25:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 05/12/17 17:26, Andy Burns wrote:
MM wrote:

I would expect this will flatten out the bubble

I'd expect worktops are formed in a press with many tonnes of pressure,
you might get some glue in there and stop it getting any worse (varnish
the edges round the sink cut-out to stop more water getting in).

But I doubt a clamp will provide enough force to re-flatten the 'bubble'.

ten tins over a hwhile worktop is nopt a huge perssure per little
section area.

cramps can easily provide that. Yoiu can lift a 2 tonnne car on a bottle
jack on an areae on half a square inch, and the same goes for most cast
G cramps. They can exertr a tremendous force over a small area.

And let's not forget that I intend to weaken the core somewhat
underneath where the laminate has bubbled, before applying pressure.
It doesn't matter what it looks like at the end, because the longer
sink will cover it up. But it does need to be as flat as possible.

MM

This is the sort of situation where, if the substrate is actually dry, I
would use not car body filler, but liquid polyester resin for better
penetration to actually stabilise the thing under the cramp, and then
fill up with body filler later to make the underside good.

Polyester resin (sold for use with glass reinforcement) is handy stuff,
being syrupy in consistency, setting hard in a few minutes and utterly
impervious to water.

Its just the thing to seal a chipboard top's cut edges.

Good to know. Thanks.

MM

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:37:16 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

The problem is it needs to be made fully dry and also you need to stop
ingress of water around the unprotected edges of the chipboard if you can.
I guess it depends on how sure you are that no water can get under the new
top.

Well, separately I'm considering whether to use plumber's putty or a
bead of silicon. The internet has dozens of recommendations for both.

I had this issue in a bathroom basin surround and its started to expand
again, one supposes due to steam in the edges inside the cupboard under the
basin. Really these things should be made out of something less like glued
together sawdust!

Absolutely. If I ever replaced the entire kitchen I'd like a stainless
steel work surface with combined/welded sink and upstand, but I expect
such a thing would cost thousands. I don't like granite or solid wood.

The problem, I suppose, is that I prepare 98%of my meals from scratch
and rarely use ready-made meals from the chiller cabinets. This means
I'm always cutting, slicing, dicing, chopping etc, which in turn means
I'm constantly washing up, so inevitably a few spots of water land on
the work surface surrounding the sink. With the larger (longer) Franke
sink I've got my eye on, this wetting risk might be reduced somewhat.

MM

On 06/12/2017 10:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Polyester resin (sold for use with glass reinforcement) is handy stuff,
being syrupy in consistency, setting hard in a few minutes and utterly
impervious to water.

Its just the thing to seal a chipboard top's cut edges.

I gave the cut edges of our worktop a liberal coating of silicone and
then ran a bead of transparent silicone around the edge of the installed
sink. It worked well: no water got into the worktop for the 15 years it
was installed.

--
F

On 06/12/17 12:49, Huge wrote:
Some of the mineral loaded polymer worktops don't have a wood core and
don't need the edges sealing around sinks. They aren't cheap, though.

+1


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On 12/6/2017 7:45 AM, MM wrote:

Absolutely. If I ever replaced the entire kitchen I'd like a stainless
steel work surface with combined/welded sink and upstand, but I expect
such a thing would cost thousands. I don't like granite or solid wood.

Perhaps not as bad as you think.
An acquaintance used these people - this is her comment on them -

"We used RH Morton's in Glasgow, fantastic service. They couldn't have
been more helpful.

http://www.rhmorton.com/services/design.asp

"They made-to-measure our splashbacks and countertops, to J's exact
design including matching the counter top front edge profiles to the one
on our Franke SS sinks; and cut-outs for the SS power sockets. J
collected the stuff from their factory, brought it to the island in the
back of the car and installed it himself, no problem. Everything fitted
perfectly. Still as new 15 years later."