In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Its all very well saying we will continue to trade with X and Y but they
have to want to buy the stuff at a price we can afford to sell it for.
You wouldn't go and buy your stuff at F&M and pay more than Harrod's for
the same stuff so why would anyone else?

And remember that free and easy movement of goods within the EU is very
important to car makers etc who source their parts from all over.

'Taking back control' of our borders is bound to make this process more
cumbersome.

Dyson threw a hissy fit and moved production to the far east when he
couldn't get his own way over planning for a new UK factory. If there are
any new obstacles to moving goods between the UK and EU after Brexit,
chances are other manufactures won't put up with it. Quite understandable
- why would they put up with hassle if there are alternatives?

AS usual a group of unconnected irrelevant bits and pieces.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
bert wrote:
Then there's India. Simply replace free movement of EU workers to those
from India, to get a deal. A perfect solution.

Usual ignorant drivel.

You need to get your news from somewhere other than the Express. An Indian
government spokesman said that would be the basis of any trade agreement
on TV.

Totally irrelevant to the point of the discussion which you have snipped
out to distract from the debate. Typical remoaner trick.
But best if you continue in blissful ignorance. Facts have never been
relevant to Brexiteers.


--
bert

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:03:37 +0000, bert wrote:

In article , T i m
writes
On Tue, 05 Dec 2017 18:06:42 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

T i m wrote:

And not a single Brexiteer has so far been able to demonstrate, with
facts and not 'beliefs' ... or weasel words like 'hope' or 'should'
that we will be 'better off by leaving the EU'. This should be *so*
easy to do as one would hope that was the real reason for leaving, not
just an excuse to hide their bigotry or racism.

I already told you - more than once -

Ah, so that means you are right and we all have to just knuckle under?

No it means that if you keep asking the same question don't be surprised
if you get the same answer.

Where did I ask a question?

that we'll be free of an
undemocratic organisation, where a set of unelected oligarchs (who call
themselves "Commissioners") are the only ones who can initiate
legislation and the EU Parliament is unable to repeal or initiate it
themselves.

Again, so you say.

Ah so you would question his right to say.

How did you come to that? All I am saying there is him just saying it
(any number of times) doesn't necessarily make it any more correct or
relevant to anyone else.

Now cite anything they have done that we (in the UK) had no control
over that both affected 'most people' negatively or that wasn't
countered by some or many things that did affect 'most people'
positively?

Do keep up.

I am, I'm keeping up with the fact you are on a crusade and
potentially without stopping to consider all the other facets (I know
you will say you have ... but ...).

Don't get me wrong, I respect you have a right to your own viewpoint
but I don't respect that it is automatically valid until you can
answer my questions above (with citeable evidence please).

Quite frankly I don't know about Mr Streater but I have ceased to care
whether you agree or not.

Course you have ... and that's why you are replying now I guess (and
still adding nothing whist doing it).

And the issue isn't what Tim (or you or anyone) thinks I (or anyone
else) agree on, it's all about you (those trying to support change
with no tangible / predictable plan) justifying yourselves (if you
want) to those who didn't court such change but who may well crash and
burn with you, should the worse happen.

A 'worst' that you Brexiteers seem to have no consideration or plan
for.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week
in costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less red
tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual facts
and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,


Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:03:37 +0000, bert wrote:
Quite frankly I don't know about Mr Streater but I have ceased to care
whether you agree or not.

Course you have ... and that's why you are replying now I guess (and
still adding nothing whist doing it).

That's the crux of it, Bert.
Reply to him and he gets his daily orgasm, much like that prick PHucker.

"bert" wrote in message
...
Really can't be bothered. Look for it yourself.

Is the correct answer.

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:59:14 +0000, bert wrote:

snip

Ok ... and that means you (Brexiteers) don't consider or plan for
there being some exit costs? Frightening.

You're easily frightened.

When it comes to the future of the UK and with no tangible prediction
that any of the Brexiteer 'hopes' coming to fruition as yet, can you
blame me (and millions of others around the world of course).

The EU has not come up with any legal basis for a divorce bill.

Ok, maybe there has been some confusion on this 'divorce bill'. I've
only considered it as us paying anything that we owe and that we have
promised towards other plans or projects (that may well benefit us
directly and indirectly in any case).

We
expect to pay in as long as we are members and at the longest up to the
end of the current budget cycle, and even that is very generous.

To you and other fanatical Brexiteers it seems.

If the EU can't meet it's commitments beyond that then they will have to
learn to something which anyone in the private sector is very familiar
with - cut their cloth accordingly.

It's nothing to do with that but all to do with us simply honouring
our commitments.

Thus demonstrating the leavers were correct in their asessement that the
eU were a bunch of total
snip
who would make life as hard as possible.

Do you have any proof that is the case?

It is there to see if you are prepared to open your eyes.

No, I don't want to just *believe* such is going on, I want to see the
hard proof that it is. Because there must be some, it should be easy
for you to cite some.

Really can't be bothered. Look for it yourself.

Yup, easy way out when there is nothing to show. If you are so
convinced leaving the EU *will* be a good thing for 'most people' in
the UK, why don't you share your facts with everyone and maybe you
will get more people onboard? Simples.


This week the news is that it is 'agreed' and 'settled' but we still
don't know what the figure is! £65bn? ! Maybe. The ignorant are still
saying 'WE KNOW WHAT WE VOTED FOR'


I know what I voted for. Its not what May is delivering.

Maybe she doesn't know what you voted for ... or any other different
thing any other Brexiteer voted for ...

And that's my point, the question was 'Do you want to leave or not',
not 'and what specifically do you mean by that'.

What childish nonsense.

In your opinion I'm guessing.

There was a long energetic referendum campaign
examining all sides of the issue and the people were offered a vote.

In your eyes maybe there was. Many people didn't have a clue re what
was going on until they put pen to poll paper.

Now
you just whinge because you failed to use that vote and your favoured
side lost.

Where have I done any of that? I'm guessing you follow this win / lose
philosophy, that democracy is locked at that point in time and people
can't still be skeptical that we are doing the right thing (by 'we' I
mean those who felt they knew enough about it to make a reason
decision either way at that time).

If you felt there was insufficient information to go for
Leave then you should have voted to Remain.

Oh, you should have told me that's what I had to do at the time,
'Brexiteer'.

Unfortunately, all you have done there (again) is demonstrate why you
shouldn't 'open you mouth till your brain is in gear'. What part of 'I
couldn't rationalise if voting Leave or Remain would be the best for
most people in the UK' do you find so vary hard to understand? A fact
that stood at the time and is not one bit different today.

See, I'm not like you, with the absence of any tangible facts (and not
just your own axe grind or crusade) could toss a coin and vote
whichever way it fell. In my mind, *you* and your kind are the
irresponsible ones for voting at all!

You had no idea if there was going to be any divorce bill, let alone
what it might be. You had no idea what we will be able to negotiate re
any trade deals or the customs boarder in NI or pretty well anything.
Maybe you didn't realise these things might be an issue and we should
just cast ourselves off from the EU and 'hope' everything will be just
tickety-boo?

How anyone could vote *at all* under those conditions baffles (and
concerns) me.

Well you're easily baffled as you continue to demonstrate ad nauseam

And not a single Brexiteer has so far been able to demonstrate, with
facts and not 'beliefs' ... or weasel words like 'hope' or 'should'
that we will be 'better off by leaving the EU'. This should be *so*
easy to do as one would hope that was the real reason for leaving, not
just an excuse to hide their bigotry or racism.

There are other reasons for leaving the EU as has been explained so many
times.

You think that a fanatical Brexiteer putting over their opinion is
'explaining' anything do you?

The paucity of your argument is amply illustrated by your
resorting to cheap abuse.

Borne out of the complete frustration re the arrogance of 'some
people' who pretend they *know* the right answer but never seem able
to back up their 'beliefs' with anything other than their own
opinions.

Ok, let's say that some unelected bureaucrat in Brussels is on the
make and thinks up some law that affects all of us in the UK
negatively (like giving your house and job to some 'foreigner). Who is
to say that that same corrupt bureaucrat hasn't also made 20 more laws
or rules that also affect us positively? Do you think removing him
from the picture and getting the job done locally is actually going to
fix things 100%?

Is it that you are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater,
risking all our futures on some principal that may not even be valid?

I don't mind if it is as at least that would be *an* answer!

Cheers, T i m

On 06/12/2017 22:55, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , bm
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:03:37 +0000, bert wrote:
Quite frankly I don't know about Mr Streater but I have ceased to care
whether you agree or not.

Course you have ... and that's why you are replying now I guess (and
still adding nothing whist doing it).

That's the crux of it, Bert.
Reply to him and he gets his daily orgasm, much like that prick PHucker.

Interesting that all one gets fromÂ* T i mÂ* is wriggling, just like Our
Dave.

1) You point out that we're not breaking the contract, we are in fact
invoking it, and that the contract specifies no exit fees, and the
wriggle is that "do we need everything spelled out". Well yes, in fact
that is how contracts operate.

2) Next the wriggle is that it's not about what is in the contract, but
that we should be "doing the right thing".

That is exactly Labour policy on Brexit...

"T i m" wrote in message
...

snipped unread
Can't be arsed, just like D i m.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week
in costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less red
tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual facts
and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,


Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Cant be because Britain has left the EU, because even
you should have noticed that Britain hasn’t left the EU yet.

Can't be because the butter is coming from the EU and the pound
has slumped against the euro, because it hasn’t moved by that much.

So its just more mindless remoaner bull****.

On 06/12/17 22:55, Tim Streater wrote:
Interesting that all one gets fromÂ* T i mÂ* is wriggling, just like Our
Dave.

Its a general characteristic of the Left, to start from preconceived
notions about the world, and then lie about the facts to prop up the
hypothesis.

The Left is all about perception. only the Right actually deals in
facts. Occasionally.

Facts are hard work, and not very comfortable usually.

Comfortable convenient lies are far more palatable. So the Left supports
political organisations dedicated to providing them, like the EU.

D i m and Dave are both too intellectually lazy to think things through,
and lack the courage to face the facts of the world, and too self
important to admit they could have been wrong, so they defend their
comfortable lies with all the desperate energy of a cornered rat.

On short they are archetypal, pathological and typical Lefty****s.

Pat them on the head and ignore them.

The criminal thing was to give people like that a vote really, but we
are stuck with it.



--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 06/12/17 22:39, charles wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week
in costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less red
tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual facts
and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,


Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Actually yes. EU policy, which still applies, has created a butter shortage.

In days of yore we would have imported New Zealand butter by the
kiloton, but the EU put up trade barreiers against that when we joined


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 22:55:14 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , bm
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:03:37 +0000, bert wrote:
Quite frankly I don't know about Mr Streater but I have ceased to care
whether you agree or not.

Course you have ... and that's why you are replying now I guess (and
still adding nothing whist doing it).

That's the crux of it, Bert.
Reply to him and he gets his daily orgasm, much like that prick PHucker.

Interesting that all one gets from T i m is wriggling, just like Our
Dave.

(This should be good ... not!)

1) You point out that we're not breaking the contract,

I am? Where did I say that?

we are in fact
invoking it, and that the contract specifies no exit fees, and the
wriggle is that "do we need everything spelled out". Well yes, in fact
that is how contracts operate.

Quite. I have never stated there was a specific 'contract' or that we
should pay any unjustified sums for the privilege of leaving. All I
have ever stated is that we should pay our dues. Sorry that's a bit
too right brain for all the left brainers.

2) Next the wriggle is that it's not about what is in the contract, but
that we should be "doing the right thing".

Quite.

He's then unable to indicate
what the "right thing" is,

Sorry, has anyone asked? Again, a left brainer looking for details in
a right brainer reply / statement that didn't cover any. We are way
too premature to consider details, we have to agree the principals
first!

and if it's paying something, then what
amount, and no indication of on what basis, how much, who decides.

Quite. All the things those who decided we should leave the EU should
have pinned down *before* asking the great unwashed to vote on it!

And
no acceptance

'No acceptance. WHF are you on? For me to 'no accept' any notion I
would first to have mentioned / discussed it and I haven't!

You really are getting desperate as you dig yourself deeper and deeper
here. In fact, before this I was actually willing to continue
considering your points but you seem to have lost the plot!

that we have monies on deposit at this investment bank,
that we should be getting back, or that we should be getting a cut of
the EU assets that we have contributed towards.

'Oh course' DOH! You really couldn't make this stuff up could you!

snip waffle

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:34:51 -0000, "bm" wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

snipped unread
Can't be arsed, just like D i m.

Bwhahaha ... that's it, run away coward!

Every time .... e v e r y t i m e these cowardy fanatic Brexiteers
try it on they faceplant ... and of course they will continue to do so
because they don't actually have a leg to stand on and behind their
bluster, personal crusades and axe grinding, I believe they know it.

That's why none of them can or have ever actually put up any facts
that substantiate their totally irrational viewpoint.

I guess they just think that the other ~50 of the electorate got it
all wrong (along with the other ~30% who didn't vote at all who should
obviously voted leave etc) and they and only they are 100% right.

And they are trying to convince me they were right and I (and all
those cited above) are wrong but with no facts whatsoever.

All I have ever said is I'm not convinced leaving the EU *will* be a
good thing (and 'of course' that would be nearly impossible to
predict, given how complex the situation and the complete lack of any
real justification to do so) that we were actually doing pretty well
in the UK (and I know it could all change re the EU in the future but
that requires a crystal ball again) and everything I've seen so far
looks like there was little forward planning and the whole Brexit
thing to be a farce.

And the government, in an effort to demonstrate to the country that it
was working for them, offered a snap election and then lost it's
power! Apparently the Brexiteers read all this as confirmation that
'most people' want us out of the EU!

I bet they can see the face of Jesus on their toast as well. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:21:38 +0000, bert wrote:

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Its all very well saying we will continue to trade with X and Y but they
have to want to buy the stuff at a price we can afford to sell it for.
You wouldn't go and buy your stuff at F&M and pay more than Harrod's for
the same stuff so why would anyone else?

And remember that free and easy movement of goods within the EU is very
important to car makers etc who source their parts from all over.

'Taking back control' of our borders is bound to make this process more
cumbersome.

Dyson threw a hissy fit and moved production to the far east when he
couldn't get his own way over planning for a new UK factory. If there are
any new obstacles to moving goods between the UK and EU after Brexit,
chances are other manufactures won't put up with it. Quite understandable
- why would they put up with hassle if there are alternatives?

AS usual a group of unconnected irrelevant bits and pieces.

Interesting. It really does seem like most of the fanatical Brexiteers
have some real issues.

They have difficulty making sense of 'fuzzy' information.

They believe they are right and the other 50+% of the population are
wrong.

They latch onto one of more bits of information they consider to be
'fact' and will defend them against all the odds and rational logic.

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
snipped unread
Can't be arsed, just like D i m.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Its a general characteristic of the Left, to start from preconceived
notions about the world, and then lie about the facts to prop up the
hypothesis.

Like you've just done?

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Actually yes. EU policy, which still applies, has created a butter
shortage.

In days of yore we would have imported New Zealand butter by the
kiloton, but the EU put up trade barreiers against that when we joined

So your idea for post Brexit is to rely on imports for things which can
easily be made here?

The sort of business plan which will really bring down the country. And
you wonder why so many prefer the EU to the ideas of idiots.

--
*If you lived in your car, you'd be home by now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:21:38 +0000, bert wrote:

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Its all very well saying we will continue to trade with X and Y but they
have to want to buy the stuff at a price we can afford to sell it for.
You wouldn't go and buy your stuff at F&M and pay more than Harrod's for
the same stuff so why would anyone else?

And remember that free and easy movement of goods within the EU is very
important to car makers etc who source their parts from all over.

'Taking back control' of our borders is bound to make this process more
cumbersome.

Dyson threw a hissy fit and moved production to the far east when he
couldn't get his own way over planning for a new UK factory. If there are
any new obstacles to moving goods between the UK and EU after Brexit,
chances are other manufactures won't put up with it. Quite understandable
- why would they put up with hassle if there are alternatives?

AS usual a group of unconnected irrelevant bits and pieces.

Interesting. It really does seem like most of the fanatical Brexiteers
have some real issues.

They have difficulty making sense of 'fuzzy' information.

They believe they are right and the other 50+% of the population are
wrong.

They latch onto one of more bits of information they consider to be
'fact' and will defend them against all the odds and rational logic.

Bert is a rather typical Brexiteer in wanting to ignore any real issues on
the hopes they will simply go away. The optimism of a fool. But glows on
talk of esoteric things like 'sovereignty'.

Sadly, the world doesn't run on airy fairy principles.

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 06/12/2017 12:11, Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week
in costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less
red tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange
rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.
Want to name some that will go down in price, stuff that we want to buy
that is.


Dumping is not stopped, steel!

They put a tariff on Chinese steel to stop the dumping.



Employment laws ensure non competitive economy,

Same rules across the EU.
We actually got concessions so out employment rules are less strict than
most of the EU.

Safety standards are now ridiculous and harm the economy.

Which safety standards do you want to relax and what will the cost
saving and benefits be?

Very little of the UK GDP goes to the EU,

Only about 44% of the UK trade goes to the EU so you may want to think
again.


we have traded in the past
with no problems, what's different now.

Its a free trade area and when we leave without a free trade agreement
WTO rules apply and there are mandatory tariffs to pay to import stuff
into the EU which will make our goods more expensive and more difficult
to sell to the EU but as its only 44% of our trade I don't suppose it
matters to you.

The pound dollar exchange
rate is higher now than in the past, where's the problem.

Energy and stuff like that is paid in dollars and it is now more
expensive for it than before as it is with most electronic goods,
medicines, etc.

You omitted
to point out the lower wages in the UK as a result of EU membership,

So you claim, I put it down to a lack of decent jobs.

is that what you want, you also miss out the excessive load on the
NHS and the ridiculous cost of housing as a result of unlimited
immigration.

But its not EU migrants that are causing this its the immigrants that
are coming from other countries as there are more of them than EU
migrants and leaving the EU is not going to stop them.

This is costing the UK taxpayers £1B a week. £16 per
person per week in taxation. or £64 per family per week. The UK
economy cannot stand these costs.

That is what you claim but you ignore what will happen when the jobs
start to go and more people are on benefits.
There are plenty of jobs out there that UK workers just ignore and they
are filled by EU migrants some of the time.
I don't see the UK workers filling those jobs if you get rid of the
migrants.
All that will happen is the companies won't be able to fill the jobs and
the taxes that the migrants will be lost and you will have to pay more
to pay the benefits being paid.
In general EU migrants don't come here and claim unemployment benefits
they go to work and seen cash back to their families. What nigel tells
you are lies but as you 100% trust him I don't suppose it matters what
the truth is.


I take it you also want the EU army and wars in eastern Europe,
because that's what is coming.

The EU army was a UK idea and it was to get the rest of the EU to
contribute to defence rather than the Nato countries doing it all.
If it doesn't happen we will just contribute more and more to NATO and
your taxes will go up.
You didn't subtract the extra costs of defence from your £16 per week
the EU might cost which wont be as much if the EU has an army.

charles wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week
in costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less red
tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual facts
and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,


Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?


That's because the market is rigged by the EU. NZ butter has not
doubled in price on the world market.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Actually yes. EU policy, which still applies, has created a butter
shortage.

In days of yore we would have imported New Zealand butter by the
kiloton, but the EU put up trade barreiers against that when we joined

So your idea for post Brexit is to rely on imports for things which can
easily be made here?

The sort of business plan which will really bring down the country. And
you wonder why so many prefer the EU to the ideas of idiots.


If we hadn't shut down milk production on orders from the EU, yuo'd be
able to afford British butter! Incidentally your beloved EU yesterday
gave the OK to price fixing by a manufacturer by not allowing sales on
Amazon etc! I looked at energy costs last week and a unit of electricity
in Houston is about 6p, compared to 16p in the EU and you want to stay?!!!

dennis@home wrote:
On 06/12/2017 12:11, Capitol wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 05/12/2017 11:52, Capitol wrote:


Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week in
costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less
red tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange
rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.
Want to name some that will go down in price, stuff that we want to buy
that is.


Dumping is not stopped, steel!

They put a tariff on Chinese steel to stop the dumping.



Employment laws ensure non competitive economy,

Same rules across the EU.
We actually got concessions so out employment rules are less strict than
most of the EU.

Safety standards are now ridiculous and harm the economy.

Which safety standards do you want to relax and what will the cost
saving and benefits be?

Very little of the UK GDP goes to the EU,

Only about 44% of the UK trade goes to the EU so you may want to think
again.


we have traded in the past
with no problems, what's different now.

Its a free trade area and when we leave without a free trade agreement
WTO rules apply and there are mandatory tariffs to pay to import stuff
into the EU which will make our goods more expensive and more difficult
to sell to the EU but as its only 44% of our trade I don't suppose it
matters to you.

The pound dollar exchange
rate is higher now than in the past, where's the problem.

Energy and stuff like that is paid in dollars and it is now more
expensive for it than before as it is with most electronic goods,
medicines, etc.

You omitted
to point out the lower wages in the UK as a result of EU membership,

So you claim, I put it down to a lack of decent jobs.

is that what you want, you also miss out the excessive load on the
NHS and the ridiculous cost of housing as a result of unlimited
immigration.

But its not EU migrants that are causing this its the immigrants that
are coming from other countries as there are more of them than EU
migrants and leaving the EU is not going to stop them.

This is costing the UK taxpayers £1B a week. £16 per
person per week in taxation. or £64 per family per week. The UK
economy cannot stand these costs.

That is what you claim but you ignore what will happen when the jobs
start to go and more people are on benefits.
There are plenty of jobs out there that UK workers just ignore and they
are filled by EU migrants some of the time.
I don't see the UK workers filling those jobs if you get rid of the
migrants.
All that will happen is the companies won't be able to fill the jobs and
the taxes that the migrants will be lost and you will have to pay more
to pay the benefits being paid.
In general EU migrants don't come here and claim unemployment benefits
they go to work and seen cash back to their families. What nigel tells
you are lies but as you 100% trust him I don't suppose it matters what
the truth is.


I take it you also want the EU army and wars in eastern Europe,
because that's what is coming.

The EU army was a UK idea and it was to get the rest of the EU to
contribute to defence rather than the Nato countries doing it all.
If it doesn't happen we will just contribute more and more to NATO and
your taxes will go up.
You didn't subtract the extra costs of defence from your £16 per week
the EU might cost which wont be as much if the EU has an army.



We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation. The EU does not contribute to
defence. NAto countries do their own thing. The cost of energy in the EU
is nearly 3x the cost in the rest of the world. You cannot compete on
this basis. The price of butter has doubled as a result of being inn the
EU. You obviously believe in making people poorer and a failing
Socialist state..

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 22:21:38 +0000, bert wrote:

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Its all very well saying we will continue to trade with X and Y but they
have to want to buy the stuff at a price we can afford to sell it for.
You wouldn't go and buy your stuff at F&M and pay more than Harrod's for
the same stuff so why would anyone else?

And remember that free and easy movement of goods within the EU is very
important to car makers etc who source their parts from all over.

'Taking back control' of our borders is bound to make this process more
cumbersome.

Dyson threw a hissy fit and moved production to the far east when he
couldn't get his own way over planning for a new UK factory. If there are
any new obstacles to moving goods between the UK and EU after Brexit,
chances are other manufactures won't put up with it. Quite understandable
- why would they put up with hassle if there are alternatives?

AS usual a group of unconnected irrelevant bits and pieces.

Interesting. It really does seem like most of the fanatical Brexiteers
have some real issues.

They have difficulty making sense of 'fuzzy' information.

They believe they are right and the other 50+% of the population are
wrong.

They latch onto one of more bits of information they consider to be
'fact' and will defend them against all the odds and rational logic.

Bert is a rather typical Brexiteer in wanting to ignore any real issues on
the hopes they will simply go away. The optimism of a fool. But glows on
talk of esoteric things like 'sovereignty'.

Sadly, the world doesn't run on airy fairy principles.


Spoken like a true failed Remoaner Socialist.

On 07/12/17 11:50, Capitol wrote:
Sadly, the world doesn't run on airy fairy principles.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Spoken like a true failed Remoaner Socialist.

Well no, actually they think the world DOES run on airy fairy
principals. Marxism is all about principals. There is not one practical
idea in the whole of Das Kapital.



--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 07/12/2017 11:13, dennis@home wrote:


Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.
Want to name some that will go down in price, stuff that we want to buy
that is.


well
https://iea.org.uk/the-eus-thousands...nish-the-poor/

gives a few ideas.
Oranges/citrus fruit
A bunch of producers elsewhere in the EU €“ in this case Spain €“
complained about competition from South African orange exporters and
lobbied to increase tariffs. They got their way and the net result as it
affected the UK was to increase the cost of orange imports to the UK.

Coffee
Consider coffee. There are a number of different tariff schedules on
coffee imports and the general idea underlying them is that raw
materials get zero or very low tariffs, but the processed coffee imports
that compete with EU coffee processors currently attract tariffs of up
to 11.5 percent.

Remember that when you buy your next €˜fair trade coffee.

In General

€œSadly, producer interests are all too frequently the basis for so many
of the 12,651 import tariffs that form part of the External Tariff Wall.
Consumers €“ a disparate and diverse group at the best of times €“ are
simply no competition for the concentrated lobbying power of companies
in Brussels.






--
Chris B (News)

On 07/12/17 13:23, Chris B wrote:
On 07/12/2017 11:13, dennis@home wrote:


Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.
Want to name some that will go down in price, stuff that we want to buy
that is.


well
https://iea.org.uk/the-eus-thousands...nish-the-poor/

gives a few ideas.
Oranges/citrus fruit
A bunch of producers elsewhere in the EU €“ in this case Spain €“
complained about competition from South African orange exporters and
lobbied to increase tariffs. They got their way and the net result as it
affected the UK was to increase the cost of orange imports to the UK.

Coffee
Consider coffee. There are a number of different tariff schedules on
coffee imports and the general idea underlying them is that raw
materials get zero or very low tariffs, but the processed coffee imports
that compete with EU coffee processors currently attract tariffs of up
to 11.5 percent.

Remember that when you buy your next €˜fair trade coffee.

In General

€œSadly, producer interests are all too frequently the basis for so many
of the 12,651 import tariffs that form part of the External Tariff Wall.
Consumers €“ a disparate and diverse group at the best of times €“ are
simply no competition for the concentrated lobbying power of companies
in Brussels.






Currently butter in the UK - aitroise essenrual is am9ongs te cheaper
end - is £6.52 per kilo

In new zealand, its £5.11 premium and about £3.70 for cheap deals deals'

WE can look forward to better tropical fruit, butter lamb etc etc froim
Australia, New Zealand and South Africa, as well as cheaper wine.



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Actually yes. EU policy, which still applies, has created a butter
shortage.

In days of yore we would have imported New Zealand butter by the
kiloton, but the EU put up trade barreiers against that when we joined

So your idea for post Brexit is to rely on imports for things which can
easily be made here?

The sort of business plan which will really bring down the country. And
you wonder why so many prefer the EU to the ideas of idiots.


If we hadn't shut down milk production on orders from the EU, yuo'd be
able to afford British butter!

But Turnip didn't say that. He wants to import cheap butter from NZ, which
is what I commented on. To keep up.


Incidentally your beloved EU yesterday gave the OK to price fixing by a
manufacturer by not allowing sales on Amazon etc! I looked at energy
costs last week and a unit of electricity in Houston is about 6p,
compared to 16p in the EU and you want to stay?!!!

You think we'll be able to buy electricity from the US at 6p a unit then?
And petrol from Saudi for what it sells there for too?

Any other dreams?

--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation.

Could you describe which jobs EU immigrants do which can be replaced by
automation?

--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation.

Could you describe which jobs EU immigrants do which can be replaced by
automation?


Carrot picking for one.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Is that why butter has nearly doubled in price since last year?

Actually yes. EU policy, which still applies, has created a butter
shortage.

In days of yore we would have imported New Zealand butter by the
kiloton, but the EU put up trade barreiers against that when we joined

So your idea for post Brexit is to rely on imports for things which can
easily be made here?

The sort of business plan which will really bring down the country. And
you wonder why so many prefer the EU to the ideas of idiots.


If we hadn't shut down milk production on orders from the EU, yuo'd be
able to afford British butter!

But Turnip didn't say that. He wants to import cheap butter from NZ, which
is what I commented on. To keep up.


Incidentally your beloved EU yesterday gave the OK to price fixing by a
manufacturer by not allowing sales on Amazon etc! I looked at energy
costs last week and a unit of electricity in Houston is about 6p,
compared to 16p in the EU and you want to stay?!!!

You think we'll be able to buy electricity from the US at 6p a unit then?
And petrol from Saudi for what it sells there for too?

Any other dreams?


Welcome to increasing self inflicted EU poverty Dave!

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 15:18:54 UTC, Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation.

Could you describe which jobs EU immigrants do which can be replaced by
automation?


Carrot picking for one.

Theyb developing robots to pick strawberries they cost about 100K each but will pay for themseleves as they work 24/7/365.
Again on the TV a few weeks ago, it's amazing no one else sees these things..
They 'farm' employs pickers at the rate of £10-£15 per hour .
But the owners complained because UKers wanted a career rather than justv a summer job.
Which sort of proves what is happening ZERO hours contracts no need to worry about getting a career if you live in the UK.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation.

Could you describe which jobs EU immigrants do which can be replaced by
automation?


Carrot picking for one.

They don't grow that many carrots in London. Wanting to know how you
automate building work, the care industry both private and NHS, and the
catering trade? And all the various delivery systems.

But perhaps you'd explain how automating produce picking is going to help
the large numbers of unemployed in those rural areas?

--
*Wood burns faster when you have to cut and chop it yourself.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
You think we'll be able to buy electricity from the US at 6p a unit
then? And petrol from Saudi for what it sells there for too?

Any other dreams?


Welcome to increasing self inflicted EU poverty Dave!

Do you really think there will be less poverty after we leave the EU? You
seem to be in a club of one there.

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 7 December 2017 16:20:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
We can afford to lose 3M jobs by returning EU migrants. Cheap EU labour
prevents investment in automation.

Could you describe which jobs EU immigrants do which can be replaced by
automation?


Carrot picking for one.

They don't grow that many carrots in London. Wanting to know how you
automate building work, the care industry both private and NHS, and the
catering trade? And all the various delivery systems.

But perhaps you'd explain how automating produce picking is going to help
the large numbers of unemployed in those rural areas?

According to a friend in AUS, the chinese are training engineers who fix robots.
australia then can buy the robots, rather than chinese workers on import restrictions, then they go wrong and no one can fix them, so they have to employ chinese robot engineers.

On 07/12/2017 12:19, Tim Streater wrote:
In article om,
"dennis@home" wrote:

Its a free trade area ...

It's a protectionist area, Den.


Its also a free trade area that we will be leaving and will then suffer
from any protectionist policies they make.
This will affect our exports to them adversely, but as we only export
44% of our exports to them it will only be a minor inconvenience having
lots of industry shut down.

On 04/12/2017 23:09, bert wrote:
In article . com,
"dennis@home" writes
On 03/12/2017 20:34, bert wrote:
In article . com,
"dennis@home" writes
On 29/11/2017 18:19, bert wrote:
In article ,
NightjarÂ* writes
On 29-Nov-17 8:36 AM, harry wrote:
What a load of drivel!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39537726

Project fear is Brexiteer speak for inconvenient truth.

We'll all be driving electric cars soon.

They need to be improved a huge amount before that is likely.
However,Â* we do appear to being forced to drive hybrids in future.

And where is the Ford Transit made - move funded by the EU.
Bridgend is at risk because JLR have cut short an engine supply
contract

The EU gives grants to companies wanting to set up in the EU so you
can expect more EU grants for UK based manufacturers to move to the EU.

Maybe you brex****teers haven't worked that out yet?

Well you don't seem to have worked out that the UK is still in the
EU,Â* the move of Transit production took place in 2013 and it went
to......TURKEY which in case you don't know is not in the EU. You are
asÂ* Dense as Plow****. Why don't you remoaners ever check your facts
beforeÂ* mouthing off.

Where do I mention transit production?
I wish you brex****eers could read.


I didÂ* and you responded to it. Problem with you thick remoaners you
can't hold more than one idea in your head at any one time as that
requires at least 3 brain cells.
BTW it was a brex****eer that claimed the EU paid for the transit move
so you had better get on the same song sheet or they will disown you
and start calling you a leftie****.
It was you who implied it had gone to the EU and funded by the EU.

I never implied anything about the transit deal, try reading what i said
as it was about getting companies to move into the EU.

dennis@home wrote
Capitol wrote
dennis@home wrote
Capitol wrote

Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week in
costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less
red tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange
rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.

Another remoaner lie. When Britain is free to import what food it
imports from anywhere it likes in the world without any EU tariff
on it, it will in fact go down, you silly little pathological liar.

Want to name some that will go down in price, stuff that we want to buy
that is.

Anything that currently has an EU tariff imposed on it
when it doesnt come from the EU. And given that most
EU food is produced by very inefficient propped up
EU food producers, just as true of the food that isnt
obtained from EU countrys once Britain leaves, liar.

Dumping is not stopped, steel!

They put a tariff on Chinese steel to stop the dumping.

The bulk of the steel still comes from china, liar.

Employment laws ensure non competitive economy,

Same rules across the EU.

Yep, same non competitive laws apply to the entire EU.

We actually got concessions so out employment rules are less strict than
most of the EU.

But will be free to do anything you like when outside the EU.

Safety standards are now ridiculous and harm the economy.

Which safety standards do you want to relax

All the stupid stuff about what color jackets must
be used, all the stupid rigmarole with visitors like
Adam that know how to do things safely already.

and what will the cost saving and benefits be?

Impossible to quantify.

Very little of the UK GDP goes to the EU,

Only about 44% of the UK trade goes to the EU

Thats not GDP.

so you may want to think again.

No need, he knows the difference between GDP and trade
even if you are too stupid to know the difference.

And the bulk of Britain's trade with the EU will
continue with Britain outside the EU anyway
and most of it doesnt compete with the EU
so there is no point in the EU imposing any
tariff on that trade. And even if the EU is that
stupid, the tariff is unlikely to be more than
the devaluation of the pound and so it will
be cheaper for the EU importers so they
will continue to buy that stuff anyway.

we have traded in the past with no problems, what's different now.

Its a free trade area and when we leave without a free trade agreement WTO
rules apply and there are mandatory tariffs to pay to import stuff into
the EU

There are no mandatory tariffs under the WTO rules.

which will make our goods more expensive

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie. The devaluation of
the pound relative to the euro is more than the tariff so
the goods exported to the EU will in fact be cheaper.

and more difficult to sell to the EU

Not when they are cheaper, fool.

but as its only 44% of our trade

Very little of which will have any tariff imposed
and even the stuff that does like with ag exports,
those will be cheaper in the hands of the buyers.

I don't suppose it matters to you.

More of your flagrant remoaner dishonesty.

The pound dollar exchange rate is higher now than in the past, where's
the problem.

Energy and stuff like that is paid in dollars

Another bare faced pig ignorant lie with
the energy that comes from europe.

and it is now more expensive for it than before as it is with most
electronic goods,

By **** all in fact.

medicines, etc.

Most medicines arent imported, you silly little pathological liar.

You omitted to point out the lower wages in the UK as a result of EU
membership,

So you claim,

It has to be true with any EUian from places
like Poland and Romania free to move to Britain
and work for the minimum wage that is much
better than where they are coming from.

I put it down to a lack of decent jobs.

Even sillier than you usually manage with the health care system alone.

is that what you want, you also miss out the excessive load on the NHS
and the ridiculous cost of housing as a result of unlimited immigration.

But its not EU migrants that are causing this its the immigrants that are
coming from other countries as there are more of them than EU migrants

In fact its about equal numbers of both types.

and leaving the EU is not going to stop them.

But is going to stop the worst of the EU immigrants that
dont bother to work and just bludge on the welfare system.

We've already seen quite a few leave now that they are
aware that they arent welcome, even before Britain has left.

This is costing the UK taxpayers £1B a week. £16 per
person per week in taxation. or £64 per family per week. The UK economy
cannot stand these costs.

That is what you claim but you ignore what will happen when the jobs start
to go and more people are on benefits.

That is what you claim, that jobs will start to go. There is no
evidence that any jobs will go, and even if some so, that will
be more than compensated for by the EUians no longer coming.

There are plenty of jobs out there that UK workers just ignore and they
are filled by EU migrants some of the time.

And with Britain out of the EU, it will be free to tell the UK bludgers
that if they dont do that work, they dont get any benefits.

I don't see the UK workers filling those jobs if you get rid of the
migrants.

Yes, you actually are that stupid.

All that will happen is the companies won't be able to fill the jobs

What about the non EU immigrants ? You can't
even manage a consistent line in bare faced lies.

and the taxes that the migrants will be lost

And Britain wont have to pay any benefits to EUians.

and you will have to pay more to pay the benefits being paid.

Another bare faced remoaner lie.

In general EU migrants don't come here and claim unemployment benefits
they go to work and seen cash back to their families.

And with fewer EU migrants, the locals will do those jobs
and pay the same tax and wont be sending the cash out of
the country, they will be spending it in the country instead.

What nigel tells you are lies

What you remoaners tell everyone are bare faced lies.

but as you 100% trust him I don't suppose it matters what the truth is.

You wouldnt know what the truth was
if it bit you on your lard arse, remoaner.

Fact remains, the majority who bothered to vote voted
to leave and you remoaners get to like that or lump it.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
dennis@home wrote
Capitol wrote
dennis@home wrote
Capitol wrote

Where is your demonstration of the benefits of paying #1B a week in
costs to the Eu?

Cheaper food, cheaper exports, protection from dumping by other
countries, better employment laws, better safety standards, less
red tape for exporters to the EU, a better pound dollar exchange
rate, ....

Now its your turn to come up with good reasons to leave as actual
facts and not more lies and hopes.

None of your points are true! Food is more expensive in the EU,

Some food is more expensive but most will go up when we leave.

Another remoaner lie. When Britain is free to import what food it
imports from anywhere it likes in the world without any EU tariff
on it, it will in fact go down, you silly little pathological liar.

That assumes other parts of the world have spare capacity to sell to us.
Australia & New Zealand have found other customers for their products.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Capitol wrote:
You think we'll be able to buy electricity from the US at 6p a unit
then? And petrol from Saudi for what it sells there for too?

Any other dreams?


Welcome to increasing self inflicted EU poverty Dave!

Do you really think there will be less poverty after we leave the EU? You
seem to be in a club of one there.

Yes. Cut of the excessive supply of cheap unskilled labour and wages at
the bottom end will rise. But of course socialists don't want that
because the ex-poor don't vote Labour.
--
bert