Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and automatic
switching between mains and backup is expensive. However running in a
"local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if you do it at the
right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything
complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.

Cheers


Dave R



--
Dell XPS laptop running W8.1

On 24/10/2017 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and automatic
switching between mains and backup is expensive. However running in a
"local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if you do it at the
right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything
complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.

Cheers


Dave R



I think by the time you had looked at the cost of "local only" ring main
parts you might as well just fit a manual changeover switch. That gives
you all your lights and the useful little things you might have
forgotten, like door bells, phones, mast head amplifiers and wifi extenders.

You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

Coloured sockets are readily available from electrical wholesalers though.

Its very odd for two adjacent properties to be off, In this road when they
had to do a fixe it was every third house as the phases are wired that way,
ie, if I had an old fashioned mains intercom, only several doors down could
also hear it not next door!

However if its a sub station then it would be a whole lot of all phases as I
doubt anyone would want live mains phases about while trying to find a
problem.
The last time it went of big time around here was when they moved the
street lighe in from the curb and went straight through the cable bang, I
was out at the time.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"David" wrote in message
...
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and automatic
switching between mains and backup is expensive. However running in a
"local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if you do it at the
right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything
complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.

Cheers


Dave R



--
Dell XPS laptop running W8.1

In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:
Its very odd for two adjacent properties to be off, In this road when
they had to do a fixe it was every third house as the phases are wired
that way, ie, if I had an old fashioned mains intercom, only several
doors down could also hear it not next door!

It depends what is at fault. This house and its two neighbours were built
in 1911 ( the rest of the road being 1930s) and until three years ago were
fed from a spur cable off the main road feeder. The a builder, in trying
to remove a tree shorted the cable and it took 4 days to replace it. Each
house had its own 60kVA genny installed at about 1am!.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 24/10/2017 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

They may be able to take down just one phase...

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and automatic
switching between mains and backup is expensive. However running in a
"local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if you do it at the
right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything
complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

I would have thought a manual changeover would be less hassle than
dedicated circuits.

(although the complexity can vary a bit with your earthing system)

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Probably... (note previous discussions about

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.

We have a scheduled cut for tomorrow, so going to be in a similar state.
Probably not cold enough to light the fire, but will see how it goes. I
have a small portable gas hob that will run on a propane bottle for
drinks etc, but it sounds like a good excuse for lunch at the pub.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , John Rumm
wrote:
On 24/10/2017 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm
using a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in
the 2 hours they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

They may be able to take down just one phase...

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and
automatic switching between mains and backup is expensive. However
running in a "local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if
you do it at the right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to
retrofit). Anything complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could
get sockets of a distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly
mark the local only sockets.

I would have thought a manual changeover would be less hassle than
dedicated circuits.

(although the complexity can vary a bit with your earthing system)

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler,
fridge, freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT
base stations.

Probably... (note previous discussions about

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the
chance to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing
that I can warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then
again it is a bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out
your bunker.

We have a scheduled cut for tomorrow, so going to be in a similar state.
Probably not cold enough to light the fire, but will see how it goes. I
have a small portable gas hob that will run on a propane bottle for
drinks etc, but it sounds like a good excuse for lunch at the pub.

I hope it's within walking distance ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tuesday, 24 October 2017 12:09:17 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door.
(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off?

If it's only you and your neighbour you're not looped into them are you?

It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Type/_S...owColours.html

If you wanted to be less obvious you could uise white sockets with different coloured rockers for identification - or a little coloured dot sticker on each socket or switch to identify the circuit.

Owain

On 24/10/2017 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

They possibly turned off no power. You might take your power from your
neighbours cut out.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_Types

shows two setups like that under the TN-S setup.


Now yesterday most of Aukley had it's power cut for a day whilst some
trees were felled. 9am to 4pm.

First job of the day was to set up a big 3 phase genny for the local pub
ready for the power going off. You knew the power had been cut when the
burglar alarms went off:-) I sent the apprentice around posting business
cards through the letter boxes of the ones that were sounding.


--
Adam

ARW wrote:

You knew the power had been cut when the burglar alarms went off:-)

Most people seem to think that's expected, clearly it proves their alarm
has a working battery!

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 24/10/2017 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

They possibly turned off no power. You might take your power from your
neighbours cut out.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Earthing_Types

shows two setups like that under the TN-S setup.


Now yesterday most of Aukley had it's power cut for a day whilst some
trees were felled. 9am to 4pm.

First job of the day was to set up a big 3 phase genny for the local pub
ready for the power going off.

How else woul they workers get their lunch? Sounds like when I installed a
new CU - 30+ years ago. I asked to have the power cut off when I did it. I
told the bloke from SEEboard, if you come back and reconnect me in a couple
of hours I can then put the kettle on. He did and I did.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 24/10/2017 15:29, charles wrote:

We have a scheduled cut for tomorrow, so going to be in a similar state.
Probably not cold enough to light the fire, but will see how it goes. I
have a small portable gas hob that will run on a propane bottle for
drinks etc, but it sounds like a good excuse for lunch at the pub.

I hope it's within walking distance ;-)

Its ok, the car is not electric ;-)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/10/2017 18:19, Andy Burns wrote:
ARW wrote:

You knew the power had been cut when the burglar alarms went off:-)

Most people seem to think that's expected, clearly it proves their alarm
has a working battery!

And I boxed the genny in with the landlords car to keep the pikeys from
stealing it. Probably about £25K of kit sat on the carpark with a tow
hook at the front.

--
Adam

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:09:13 +0000, David wrote:

Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm
using a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the
2 hours they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and
automatic switching between mains and backup is expensive. However
running in a "local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if
you do it at the right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to
retrofit). Anything complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get
sockets of a distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark
the local only sockets.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler,
fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base
stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I
can warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again
it is a bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your
bunker.

Interesting stuff.
The power runs down one side of the road (opposite side to us) and each
pair of semis has a feed off this.

Next door is the next pair of semis. They had both been off since last
night.

There is some kind of fuse box box (mini sub station) under the road and
they switched the whole road off whilst they repaired a dodgy joint from
(they think) the 1970s.

All back on again within 2 hours.

The interesting and slightly brain twisting thing is that apparently if
you are off for more than 12 hours then you have to have a replacement
supply from a stand alone generator. So the pair of semis were off over
night. This morning the leccy people turned up mob handed with diggers and
a generator trailer.

First thing they did was connect the genny up to the people without power.
Once that was running (by about 10:00) they turned everyone else off and
fixed the problem by around 12:00 and we were all back on within 2 hours
of the switch off. So in real terms bringing and running the genny
contributed the best part of **** all apart from 2 houses having power for
2 hours whilst the rest of the street was off. No doubt it helped them
meet their targets, though.

Anyway, learned some stuff :-)

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Top posting for Brians news reader



Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.

It usually done in pairs of houses.

So houses 1 and 2 are on phase 1, houses 3 and 4 are on phase 3 and
houses 5 and 6 are on phase 3.

On 24/10/2017 12:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Its very odd for two adjacent properties to be off, In this road when they
had to do a fixe it was every third house as the phases are wired that way,
ie, if I had an old fashioned mains intercom, only several doors down could
also hear it not next door!

However if its a sub station then it would be a whole lot of all phases as I
doubt anyone would want live mains phases about while trying to find a
problem.
The last time it went of big time around here was when they moved the
street lighe in from the curb and went straight through the cable bang, I
was out at the time.
Brian



--
Adam

On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:
Top posting for Brians news reader



Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.

It usually done in pairs of houses.

So houses 1 and 2 are on phase 1, houses 3 and 4 are on phase 3 and



3 and 4 are on phase 2:-)


--
Adam

ARW submitted this idea :
It usually done in pairs of houses.

Especially so, if the houses are a pair of semi's.

David wrote

Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next
door. I'm using a laptop and mobile data and hoping the
power comes back on in the 2 hours they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off?
Is there more granularity than the local sub-station?

There certainly is with ours. If you know what to look for you
can actually see the switches on the overhead power lines.

Gets more tricky with underground power.

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death,
and automatic switching between mains and backup is expensive.
However running in a "local only" ring main doesn't look that
complicated (if you do it at the right time - not ripping apart
the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything complex in Part P? It
would be nice if you could get sockets of a distinctive different
colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only sockets.

But is it worth it if it only happens every 5 or 10 years ?

We do have some fool bring down a power pole at times
with a car or truck and sometime a megastorm will bring
one down, but it doesnt happen very often at all.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops
are pretty straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.

On 24/10/2017 21:11, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW submitted this idea :
It usually done in pairs of houses.

Especially so, if the houses are a pair of semi's.

And even then it's 50 - 50 as to which two semis!

Cut outs under the stairs/cellar/wall etc where they are next to each
other internally and it's usually a pair of semis on the same phase.

With cut outs on the external wall then it's the nearest semi that you
are NOT attached to.

So no 1 gets it own phase, but no 3 and no 5 which are separate
buildings are on the same phase. One shared cable down the pathway
between them.



--
Adam

On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:

Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.


Any idea why, in a road with c. 150 Victorian terraced houses, they
ended up with about 5 of us with power on when all the rest were without
last time there was a local power cut? (I've never had the chutzpah to
ask neighbours if I could test which phase they're on: this _is_ London.)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/10/2017 21:39, ARW wrote:
On 24/10/2017 21:11, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
ARW submitted this idea :
It usually done in pairs of houses.

Especially so, if the houses are a pair of semi's.

And even then it's 50 - 50 as to which two semis!

Cut outs under the stairs/cellar/wall etc where they are next to each
other internally and it's usually a pair of semis on the same phase.

With cut outs on the external wall then it's the nearest semi that you
are NOT attached to.

So no 1 gets it own phase, but no 3 and no 5 which are separate
buildings are on the same phase. One shared cable down the pathway
between them.

God knows what we have here? Our house is one of a pair of semis, but
power comes in at opposite ends, so unlikely to be shared. However all
the semis were built a year later than the detached bungalows that
neighbour our other side.

SteveW

In article , Brian Gaff
writes
Its very odd for two adjacent properties to be off, In this road when they
had to do a fixe it was every third house as the phases are wired that way,
ie, if I had an old fashioned mains intercom, only several doors down could
also hear it not next door!

However if its a sub station then it would be a whole lot of all phases as I
doubt anyone would want live mains phases about while trying to find a
problem.
The last time it went of big time around here was when they moved the
street lighe in from the curb and went straight through the cable bang, I
was out at the time.
Brian

In our close all the houses except one are on the same phase.
--
bert

In article , David
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 11:09:13 +0000, David wrote:

Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm
using a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in
the 2 hours they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and
automatic switching between mains and backup is expensive. However
running in a "local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if
you do it at the right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to
retrofit). Anything complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could
get sockets of a distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly
mark the local only sockets.

I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler,
fridge, freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT
base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the
chance to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing
that I can warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then
again it is a bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out
your bunker.

Interesting stuff. The power runs down one side of the road (opposite
side to us) and each pair of semis has a feed off this.

Next door is the next pair of semis. They had both been off since last
night.

There is some kind of fuse box box (mini sub station) under the road and
they switched the whole road off whilst they repaired a dodgy joint from
(they think) the 1970s.

Link box, I suspect rather than fuse box.

All back on again within 2 hours.

The interesting and slightly brain twisting thing is that apparently if
you are off for more than 12 hours then you have to have a replacement
supply from a stand alone generator. So the pair of semis were off over
night. This morning the leccy people turned up mob handed with diggers
and a generator trailer.

First thing they did was connect the genny up to the people without
power. Once that was running (by about 10:00) they turned everyone else
off and fixed the problem by around 12:00 and we were all back on within
2 hours of the switch off. So in real terms bringing and running the
genny contributed the best part of **** all apart from 2 houses having
power for 2 hours whilst the rest of the street was off. No doubt it
helped them meet their targets, though.

At least these people could keep their freezers cold.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Top posting for Brians news reader



Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.

It usually done in pairs of houses.

So houses 1 and 2 are on phase 1, houses 3 and 4 are on phase 3 and
houses 5 and 6 are on phase 3.

a 40 ish YO development of 25 bungalows near us was all on the one pahse.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Robin Wrote in message:
On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:

Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.


Any idea why, in a road with c. 150 Victorian terraced houses, they
ended up with about 5 of us with power on when all the rest were without
last time there was a local power cut? (I've never had the chutzpah to
ask neighbours if I could test which phase they're on: this _is_ London.)


Bomb damage?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 24/10/17 12:09, David wrote:
Power is off at the moment whilst they fix a problem next door. I'm using
a laptop and mobile data and hoping the power comes back on in the 2 hours
they claimed.

(1) How much of a street would they have to turn off? Is there more
granularity than the local sub-station?

There are link fuses in the road, usually on street corners where a
cable branches - typically 300-500A per phase.

But in this case, they've probably just chopped a common cable that does
both you houses.


(2) Backup generators have been more or less done to death, and automatic
switching between mains and backup is expensive. However running in a
"local only" ring main doesn't look that complicated (if you do it at the
right time - not ripping apart the fitted kitchen to retrofit). Anything
complex in Part P? It would be nice if you could get sockets of a
distinctive different colour (e.g. green) to clearly mark the local only
sockets.

Separate 16/20A radial would be easiest - don't need a ring for such a
low power application - unless you were planning on a mosnster generator.

What you must take into account though, is that technically if the
supply fails - you can no longer rely on the supplier's earth conductor
(if you have a TN-S or TN-C-S installation)


CAVEAT - this is beyond my level of qualification, so the following is
the conclusion I came to when considering the same as you:


You will need to connect the generator's radial circuit's earth/CPC to
the MET (the main earth terminal (near your meter or in the CU).

But in addition, *I believe* you should probably consider a secondary
earth rod wired to the MET. I *believe* this is going to be mandated in
the 18th Edition regs anyway - but I'm not sure if that's be finalised.

The last 2 para's need some verification by others - but that's my
understanding.



I assume you could get by with green socket power to combi boiler, fridge,
freezer. Bonus for Internet Router and LAN switch. and DECT base stations.

Re-plugging all the IT kit could be a pain, but laptops are pretty
straightforward for a couple of hours.

Power is off in the middle of an unusually warm day so I miss the chance
to light the wood burner and sit there with a smug glow knowing that I can
warm myself and cook meals whilst all about me despair. Then again it is a
bit like wishing for a nuclear war so you can test out your bunker.


Your other option is a UPS.

On 24/10/17 12:24, newshound wrote:

I think by the time you had looked at the cost of "local only" ring main
parts you might as well just fit a manual changeover switch. That gives
you all your lights and the useful little things you might have
forgotten, like door bells, phones, mast head amplifiers and wifi
extenders.

Apart from it's a more complex installation.

There is something reassuringly simple about a secondary radial with a
few sockets in strategic locations...

You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

Coloured sockets are readily available from electrical wholesalers though.

On 24/10/17 12:26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Its very odd for two adjacent properties to be off, In this road when they
had to do a fixe it was every third house as the phases are wired that way,
ie, if I had an old fashioned mains intercom, only several doors down could
also hear it not next door!

However if its a sub station then it would be a whole lot of all phases as I
doubt anyone would want live mains phases about while trying to find a
problem.
The last time it went of big time around here was when they moved the
street lighe in from the curb and went straight through the cable bang, I
was out at the time.
Brian



Might be a shared supply running along the boundary - loop into one
cutout and out to the other next to it, or behind it on the party wall.

That's still done in blocks of flats where there are a load of meters
next to each outer in a rise.

ARW brought next idea :
Cut outs under the stairs/cellar/wall etc where they are next to each other
internally and it's usually a pair of semis on the same phase.

With cut outs on the external wall then it's the nearest semi that you are
NOT attached to.

Not in our case. Cut outs between the adjoining semi's are at opposite
ends, as far apart as the could be, yet we share a feed and phase with
next door. The linking feed, runs under our and next door's front
garden.

A possible explanation for the above, is that the estate was built in
several phases, with several designs. We are at the interface between
the houses of our style and a different one next door, not attached.

We have our meter cabinets on the side, side of a long drive near 50m.
Next door not attached, have a very short drive, just the length of
their front garden, with a utility room blocking access to the rear.
Their cabinets are on the rear wall of their property.

In fact, when the Gas Utility Co. replaced all of the pipework in the
street, with a new main along the street - some of those with meters at
the rear were up in arms, because they had to run the pipes on the
surface. They tried and failed to find a route under the utility rooms.
I gave them permission to run both next door's and our own feed pipe up
our drive, so as to avoid them having to have a surface pipe.

The original main had been steel run along the rear of the properties,
but the steel pipes had become porous.

It happens that Robin formulated :
On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:

Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other on
the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.


Any idea why, in a road with c. 150 Victorian terraced houses, they ended up
with about 5 of us with power on when all the rest were without last time
there was a local power cut? (I've never had the chutzpah to ask neighbours
if I could test which phase they're on: this _is_ London.)

It could be they one all on one phase, or maybe fed from a different
sub-station.

bert used his keyboard to write :
In our close all the houses except one are on the same phase.

Quite possible, they just aim to balance the loading so each phase
carries similar loading.

On 25/10/2017 10:54, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that Robin formulated :
On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:

Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each
other on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each
other on different phases.


Any idea why, in a road with c. 150 Victorian terraced houses, they
ended up with about 5 of us with power on when all the rest were
without last time there was a local power cut?* (I've never had the
chutzpah to ask neighbours if I could test which phase they're on:
this _is_ London.)

It could be they one all on one phase, or maybe fed from a different
sub-station.

Well yes. But I should have been clearer: this is c. 5 at apparently
random places in the road, not all on one side. So why just those?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:
Top posting for Brians news reader



Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other on
different phases.

It usually done in pairs of houses.

So houses 1 and 2 are on phase 1, houses 3 and 4 are on phase 3 and
houses 5 and 6 are on phase 3.


Where I was previously, They did two halves of two semi's on the same
phase. So you shared a drop wire and a phase with the non attached
adjacent property, but the cojoined half semi was on another phase.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/10/2017 21:47, Robin wrote:
On 24/10/2017 20:27, ARW wrote:

Actually its far more common to have two properties next to each other
on the same phase than it is the have 3 properties next to each other
on different phases.


Any idea why, in a road with c. 150 Victorian terraced houses, they
ended up with about 5 of us with power on when all the rest were without
last time there was a local power cut?Â* (I've never had the chutzpah to
ask neighbours if I could test which phase they're on: this _is_ London.)


On the gfs street (PME supply) it 4 houses (two semis) to a phase. The
supply pops up at the back of one house and then runs external to all 4
houses with a catenary between the non joined houses.



--
Adam

On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:24:49 +0100, newshound wrote:

I think by the time you had looked at the cost of "local only" ring main
parts you might as well just fit a manual changeover switch. That gives
you all your lights and the useful little things you might have
forgotten, like door bells, phones, mast head amplifiers and wifi
extenders.

Except it ain't that simple. You have to make sure that there is
absolutely no way, ever, at all, even for a ms, energise the "dead"
incomer from your generator/UPS. That's fairly easy with a proper,
double pole, three position, break before make, on-off-on chnage over
switch.

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance and you bond the
generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to that spike. effectively
creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However you shouldn't
connect this locally derived earth to the MET. They could be at
different potentials, right up to being connected to a supply phase.
So you ought to break the connection between the MET and the house
hold earth, except the regs don't allow breaks in the bonding wire
let alone a switch...

When I drag the genset out here, I run temporary extension cables
from it to the appliances that need to be kept running, essentially
just the fridges/freezers and CH system. The two phases from the
genset float, if some one touches one that gets dragged down to
"earth" and is fairly safe. The danger comes should the other phase
also have a connection to earth, depending on the impedances you
could get a full strength belt.


You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

A suitably sized overload protective device solves that one. Unless
you have some slow learners...

(*) "Single phase generators" are really two phases @ 180 degrees
with niether phase connected to the chassis.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27/10/2017 19:05, Dave Liquorice wrote:

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance

That's less of an issue with modern all RCD installations.

and you bond the
generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to that spike.

You may need to do that anyway for things like your CH boiler, where
many will use rectified flame sensing.

effectively
creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However you shouldn't
connect this locally derived earth to the MET.

It would be acceptable on a PME supply (and in fact may become a
requirement for new installs at some point). Obviously TT setups would
be fine. TN-S would be more problematic.

They could be at
different potentials, right up to being connected to a supply phase.
So you ought to break the connection between the MET and the house
hold earth, except the regs don't allow breaks in the bonding wire
let alone a switch...

When I drag the genset out here, I run temporary extension cables
from it to the appliances that need to be kept running, essentially
just the fridges/freezers and CH system. The two phases from the
genset float, if some one touches one that gets dragged down to
"earth" and is fairly safe. The danger comes should the other phase
also have a connection to earth, depending on the impedances you
could get a full strength belt.


You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

A suitably sized overload protective device solves that one. Unless
you have some slow learners...

(*) "Single phase generators" are really two phases @ 180 degrees
with niether phase connected to the chassis.

Debatable whether that can be called two phase - its more like a single
phase transformer isolated output.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Friday, 27 October 2017 20:36:49 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/10/2017 19:05, Dave Liquorice wrote:

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance

That's less of an issue with modern all RCD installations.

and you bond the
generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to that spike.

You may need to do that anyway for things like your CH boiler, where
many will use rectified flame sensing.

effectively
creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However you shouldn't
connect this locally derived earth to the MET.

It would be acceptable on a PME supply (and in fact may become a
requirement for new installs at some point). Obviously TT setups would
be fine. TN-S would be more problematic.

They could be at
different potentials, right up to being connected to a supply phase.
So you ought to break the connection between the MET and the house
hold earth, except the regs don't allow breaks in the bonding wire
let alone a switch...

When I drag the genset out here, I run temporary extension cables
from it to the appliances that need to be kept running, essentially
just the fridges/freezers and CH system. The two phases from the
genset float, if some one touches one that gets dragged down to
"earth" and is fairly safe. The danger comes should the other phase
also have a connection to earth, depending on the impedances you
could get a full strength belt.


You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

A suitably sized overload protective device solves that one. Unless
you have some slow learners...

(*) "Single phase generators" are really two phases @ 180 degrees
with niether phase connected to the chassis.

Debatable whether that can be called two phase - its more like a single
phase transformer isolated output.

is 2 phase still used in the grid? I know it was widespread pre-war.


NT

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:36:47 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET
is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike
but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance

That's less of an issue with modern all RCD installations.

How many places are "all RCD"? And we don't know what the OP has.

I'm not sure I'd like to come into contact with the chassis of a
"must be earthed" appliance with a L to chassis short and an CPC
impedance above about 7k... True enough with an RCD protection you
don't need a low impedance earth path to make sure the overload
protection is tripped in a sensible amount of time in the event of a
fault.

and you bond the generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to
that
spike.

You may need to do that anyway for things like your CH boiler, where
many will use rectified flame sensing.

Poncy gas things, oilers have jacobs ladders. B-)

effectively creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However
you
shouldn't connect this locally derived earth to the MET.

It would be acceptable on a PME supply (and in fact may become a
requirement for new installs at some point). Obviously TT setups would
be fine. TN-S would be more problematic.

Under supply fault conditions?


--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 01:58:53 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:36:47 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET
is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase "live"
and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth, many
appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike
but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance

That's less of an issue with modern all RCD installations.

How many places are "all RCD"? And we don't know what the OP has.

I'm not sure I'd like to come into contact with the chassis of a "must
be earthed" appliance with a L to chassis short and an CPC impedance
above about 7k... True enough with an RCD protection you don't need a
low impedance earth path to make sure the overload protection is tripped
in a sensible amount of time in the event of a fault.

and you bond the generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to
that
spike.

You may need to do that anyway for things like your CH boiler, where
many will use rectified flame sensing.

Poncy gas things, oilers have jacobs ladders. B-)

effectively creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However
you
shouldn't connect this locally derived earth to the MET.

It would be acceptable on a PME supply (and in fact may become a
requirement for new installs at some point). Obviously TT setups would
be fine. TN-S would be more problematic.

Under supply fault conditions?

Just to note that the house is all RCBO.

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 29/10/2017 01:58, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2017 20:36:47 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET
is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike
but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance

That's less of an issue with modern all RCD installations.

How many places are "all RCD"? And we don't know what the OP has.

I'm not sure I'd like to come into contact with the chassis of a
"must be earthed" appliance with a L to chassis short and an CPC
impedance above about 7k...

If you are installing your own spike, then I would aim for a
significantly lower impedance than 7k...

I have always managed to get under 15 ohms in these parts (clay soil),
and normally closer to 6 or 7 ohms.

True enough with an RCD protection you
don't need a low impedance earth path to make sure the overload
protection is tripped in a sensible amount of time in the event of a
fault.

and you bond the generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to
that
spike.

You may need to do that anyway for things like your CH boiler, where
many will use rectified flame sensing.

Poncy gas things, oilers have jacobs ladders. B-)

Must admit to never having looked at how the control systems on an oil
burner work...

effectively creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However
you
shouldn't connect this locally derived earth to the MET.

It would be acceptable on a PME supply (and in fact may become a
requirement for new installs at some point). Obviously TT setups would
be fine. TN-S would be more problematic.

Under supply fault conditions?

Yup, for all RCD installs on either TT or TN-C-S with earth spike.
(earth spike working and tested)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/10/2017 19:05, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:24:49 +0100, newshound wrote:

I think by the time you had looked at the cost of "local only" ring main
parts you might as well just fit a manual changeover switch. That gives
you all your lights and the useful little things you might have
forgotten, like door bells, phones, mast head amplifiers and wifi
extenders.

Except it ain't that simple. You have to make sure that there is
absolutely no way, ever, at all, even for a ms, energise the "dead"
incomer from your generator/UPS. That's fairly easy with a proper,
double pole, three position, break before make, on-off-on chnage over
switch.

The tricksy part is earth. You can't assume that the suppliers MET is
still connected to earth. Household wiring assumes single phase
"live" and return path "neutral" along with the protective earth,
many appliances MUST be earthed. You could install your own spike but
you have to ensure that has a low enough impedance and you bond the
generator chassis and one of its phases(*) to that spike. effectively
creating a "live", "neutral", "earth" supply. However you shouldn't
connect this locally derived earth to the MET. They could be at
different potentials, right up to being connected to a supply phase.
So you ought to break the connection between the MET and the house
hold earth, except the regs don't allow breaks in the bonding wire
let alone a switch...

When I drag the genset out here, I run temporary extension cables
from it to the appliances that need to be kept running, essentially
just the fridges/freezers and CH system. The two phases from the
genset float, if some one touches one that gets dragged down to
"earth" and is fairly safe. The danger comes should the other phase
also have a connection to earth, depending on the impedances you
could get a full strength belt.


You'd need the discipline to make sure you didn't run an immersion,
washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, or heater off you generator
(unless it is a big one).

A suitably sized overload protective device solves that one. Unless
you have some slow learners...

(*) "Single phase generators" are really two phases @ 180 degrees
with niether phase connected to the chassis.

Agreed. I should have been more explicit. But I don't think I would wire
an "independent" radial for the generator myself, I would use a *proper*
changeover switch, with overload protection, and a good tested earth spike!