Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH

Wrote in message:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Would the critall frames offer any protection to the dg unit's
perimeter seal?

Uv exposure (at least) degrades the seal leading to premature failure.
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:53:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00), jim k wrote:

Wrote in message:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Would the critall frames offer any protection to the dg unit's
perimeter seal?

Uv exposure (at least) degrades the seal leading to premature failure.

Does the seal come over the outer pane of glass as this is the only
bit that would be slightly proud I think?

AJH

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 12:17:31 UTC+1, wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH

Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.


NT

On 11/10/17 12:17, wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Your's is a good case for the Pilkington "vacuum" super thin panels - if
you can find them, and if you can afford them...

On 11/10/17 13:22, wrote:
On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 12:17:31 UTC+1, wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH

Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.



It is probably worth doing a calculation on the loss through the DG
units versus heatloss throughh the frame

I do know that they are *******s for frame condensation.

YOu can also get new crittall DG units

https://www.crittall-windows.co.uk/product/homelight/

I would be inclined to ask them for details and a quote




NT



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

wrote:

Does the seal come over the outer pane of glass as this is the only
bit that would be slightly proud I think?

They generally have a run of duct tape around the rim which overlaps
from the inner to the outer pane, I think that's covering a layer of
"black gunge" which is covering the spacer bar ... never tried removing
the duct tape.

Yes some friends in a conservation are with avictorian house had to pay a
lot more for look alike frames for the orignal.
I wonder if you could just dress the outside to look like the old frames and
just fit normal ones?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"jim" k wrote in message
...
Wrote in message:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Would the critall frames offer any protection to the dg unit's
perimeter seal?

Uv exposure (at least) degrades the seal leading to premature failure.
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Wednesday, 11 October 2017 12:17:31 UTC+1, wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH

Steel frames are bad news.
Get rid of them.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:17:27 +0100, wrote:

Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

No, but I have lived with these dreadful windows on a number of
houses. For evolutionary biologists they are wonderful, over a winter
the condensation on them supports vast colonies of fungi which alter
colour from virulent purple through snot green to bright yellow.
Attacked with bleach the hardiest survivors start growing the second
you turn your back.

As replacing the windows wasn't an option most occupants resorted to
retrofitting closed cell foam draught proofing around the window/frame
and fitting secondary glazing which was removed in summer. This kept
the fungal growth to a minimum and stopped the draughts which are
Crittal's trademark attribute.

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

I can't see adding a thermal break inside achieving much, it would
leave a cold strip which would still attract condensation. Looking
around the web using secondary glazing appears to be the method of
choice for dealing with the things.

Wrote in message:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 12:53:16 +0100 (GMT+01:00), jim k wrote:

Wrote in message:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Would the critall frames offer any protection to the dg unit's
perimeter seal?

Uv exposure (at least) degrades the seal leading to premature failure.

Does the seal come over the outer pane of glass as this is the only
bit that would be slightly proud I think?

AJH


Not always. Ones I have fitted here (but not in crittals) were
just the outer glass, no tape.

I think the tapes (aluminium or gaffer) are/were used when double
glazing is fitted into timber frames "old skule" as a (desperate)
extra measure to help the unit seals resist degradation from
being sat in soggy frames.
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

No, but I have lived with these dreadful windows on a number of
houses. For evolutionary biologists they are wonderful, over a winter
the condensation on them supports vast colonies of fungi which alter
colour from virulent purple through snot green to bright yellow.
Attacked with bleach the hardiest survivors start growing the second
you turn your back.

Had them in my parent's house. Other trick was rust and or expansion etc
broke glass regularly. Which lead me to believe it was normal to have to
replace several panes of glass every year.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 18:37:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Peter Parry wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

No, but I have lived with these dreadful windows on a number of
houses. For evolutionary biologists they are wonderful, over a winter
the condensation on them supports vast colonies of fungi which alter
colour from virulent purple through snot green to bright yellow.
Attacked with bleach the hardiest survivors start growing the second
you turn your back.

Not in my experience of these in the last 35 years Peter, perhaps you
should visit and see?

Had them in my parent's house. Other trick was rust and or expansion etc
broke glass regularly. Which lead me to believe it was normal to have to
replace several panes of glass every year.

These are galvanised so have not spalled and broken the glass, in fact
the only pane I have replaced was one I broke with a football.

They are set in a 9" solid brick wall so the next thing on my list to
cut thermal losses.

AJH

In article ,
wrote:
Had them in my parent's house. Other trick was rust and or expansion etc
broke glass regularly. Which lead me to believe it was normal to have to
replace several panes of glass every year.

These are galvanised so have not spalled and broken the glass, in fact
the only pane I have replaced was one I broke with a football.

I've a feeling a modern putty that flexed would have helped - I'm talking
about a long time ago.

--
*Filthy stinking rich -- well, two out of three ain't bad

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
Had them in my parent's house. Other trick was rust and or expansion etc
broke glass regularly. Which lead me to believe it was normal to have to
replace several panes of glass every year.

These are galvanised so have not spalled and broken the glass, in fact
the only pane I have replaced was one I broke with a football.

I've a feeling a modern putty that flexed would have helped - I'm talking
about a long time ago.

As you always are, Dave.
It's now 2017.
Keep up.
Article 50 has been triggered.
Tough ****.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:13:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/10/17 13:22, wrote:


Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.

Possibly but I'll pursue this route for a bit: As the galvanised
steel is angle iron and the glass, and its seal, will occupy the
rebate how should I deal with this thermal element.

It is probably worth doing a calculation on the loss through the DG
units versus heatloss throughh the frame

Worse case is that the steel is 3mm thick with a 25mm rebate and 60mm
is exposed on the inside. So on my largest window I have a structural
opening of1550mm wide 1300 with a softwood frame exposed to 30mm and
60mm deep,

Wood surface area 0.1284m2 what's a U value for 60mm softwood?
0.3W/m2 degC

Steel surface area 0.467m2 but what U value as the path is largely a
3mm cross section, possibly 20W/m2 deg C

glass surface area 1.4196 U value 5.6W/m2 degC double glazed might
halve it??

So currently, if the above assumptions are near, I seem to lose about
250W if I heat to 20C and it's OC outside and potentially fitting dg
panes might reduce this by a third. Which may be a saving of 600W
throughout the house.




I do know that they are *******s for frame condensation.

It has never been a problem here.


AJH

Tim Watts Wrote in message:
On 11/10/17 12:17, wrote:
Has anyone experience of gluing 20mm air gap glazing into crittal
steel frames?

They would end up flush with the outer edge and I suppose some
allowance must be made for drainage or breathing to prevent premature
"blown" panels.

Reason being pvc frames would be out of keeping and aluminium not much
better and too expensive.

I would consider gluing some insulation strips to the steel inside to
make a thermal break.

AJH


Your's is a good case for the Pilkington "vacuum" super thin panels - if
you can find them, and if you can afford them...


..... maybe you could hire the A team...

I'll be getting my coat.
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Friday, 13 October 2017 12:31:00 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:13:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/10/17 13:22, tabbypurr wrote:

Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.

Possibly but I'll pursue this route for a bit: As the galvanised
steel is angle iron and the glass, and its seal, will occupy the
rebate how should I deal with this thermal element.

It is probably worth doing a calculation on the loss through the DG
units versus heatloss throughh the frame

Worse case is that the steel is 3mm thick with a 25mm rebate and 60mm
is exposed on the inside. So on my largest window I have a structural
opening of1550mm wide 1300 with a softwood frame exposed to 30mm and
60mm deep,

Wood surface area 0.1284m2 what's a U value for 60mm softwood?
0.3W/m2 degC

Steel surface area 0.467m2 but what U value as the path is largely a
3mm cross section, possibly 20W/m2 deg C

glass surface area 1.4196 U value 5.6W/m2 degC double glazed might
halve it??

So currently, if the above assumptions are near, I seem to lose about
250W if I heat to 20C and it's OC outside and potentially fitting dg
panes might reduce this by a third. Which may be a saving of 600W
throughout the house.


I do know that they are *******s for frame condensation.

It has never been a problem here.


AJH

If you want to be a lot clearer maybe we can get somewhere.


NT

On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 03:51:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, 13 October 2017 12:31:00 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:13:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/10/17 13:22, tabbypurr wrote:

Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.

Possibly but I'll pursue this route for a bit: As the galvanised
steel is angle iron and the glass, and its seal, will occupy the
rebate how should I deal with this thermal element.

It is probably worth doing a calculation on the loss through the DG
units versus heatloss throughh the frame

Worse case is that the steel is 3mm thick with a 25mm rebate and 60mm
is exposed on the inside. So on my largest window I have a structural
opening of1550mm wide 1300 with a softwood frame exposed to 30mm and
60mm deep,

Wood surface area 0.1284m2 what's a U value for 60mm softwood?
0.3W/m2 degC

Steel surface area 0.467m2 but what U value as the path is largely a
3mm cross section, possibly 20W/m2 deg C

glass surface area 1.4196 U value 5.6W/m2 degC double glazed might
halve it??

So currently, if the above assumptions are near, I seem to lose about
250W if I heat to 20C and it's OC outside and potentially fitting dg
panes might reduce this by a third. Which may be a saving of 600W
throughout the house.


I do know that they are *******s for frame condensation.

It has never been a problem here.


AJH

If you want to be a lot clearer maybe we can get somewhere.

Okay put more simply: the structural opening is 1550mm wide 1300 high
and has an area of 2.015m2

The timber surround has 30mm exposed and is 60mm deep and thus has an
area of 0.128m2

The steel area viewed from the inside is 0.47m2

The glass area is 1.42

I think I can only reduce loses by 30% with double glazing would
secondary glazing do better?

AJH

On Saturday, 14 October 2017 19:54:35 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 03:51:15 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 13 October 2017 12:31:00 UTC+1, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:13:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/10/17 13:22, tabbypurr wrote:

Frame conduction is the major problem with Crittalls. I would have thought you'd be better off with secondary dg.

Possibly but I'll pursue this route for a bit: As the galvanised
steel is angle iron and the glass, and its seal, will occupy the
rebate how should I deal with this thermal element.

It is probably worth doing a calculation on the loss through the DG
units versus heatloss throughh the frame

Worse case is that the steel is 3mm thick with a 25mm rebate and 60mm
is exposed on the inside. So on my largest window I have a structural
opening of1550mm wide 1300 with a softwood frame exposed to 30mm and
60mm deep,

Wood surface area 0.1284m2 what's a U value for 60mm softwood?
0.3W/m2 degC

Steel surface area 0.467m2 but what U value as the path is largely a
3mm cross section, possibly 20W/m2 deg C

glass surface area 1.4196 U value 5.6W/m2 degC double glazed might
halve it??

So currently, if the above assumptions are near, I seem to lose about
250W if I heat to 20C and it's OC outside and potentially fitting dg
panes might reduce this by a third. Which may be a saving of 600W
throughout the house.


I do know that they are *******s for frame condensation.

It has never been a problem here.


AJH

If you want to be a lot clearer maybe we can get somewhere.

Okay put more simply: the structural opening is 1550mm wide 1300 high
and has an area of 2.015m2

The timber surround has 30mm exposed and is 60mm deep and thus has an
area of 0.128m2

The steel area viewed from the inside is 0.47m2

The glass area is 1.42

I think I can only reduce loses by 30% with double glazing would
secondary glazing do better?

AJH

DG only reduces heat flow through the glass, secondary glazing tackles frame loss too, which is major with Crittalls. Double secondary glazing would of course be better, since Crittalls are so grim thermally.

Crittalls aren't normally fitted into timber frames if that's what you mean.


NT

On 14/10/2017 23:48, wrote:
.... snipped.

Crittalls aren't normally fitted into timber frames if that's what you mean.


NT


In my (limited) experience this isn't correct.

On 15/10/2017 10:31, wrote:
On 14/10/2017 23:48, wrote:
... snipped.

Crittalls aren't normally fitted into timber frames if that's what you
mean.


NT


In my (limited) experience this isn't correct.

In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to the
brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Crittall still exist and make modern thermally broken DG versions
but they aren't cheap, and removing old crittall windows without
damaging the surrounding brickwork is not easy.

On 15/10/17 12:28, Andrew wrote:
On 15/10/2017 10:31, wrote:
On 14/10/2017 23:48, wrote:
... snipped.

Crittalls aren't normally fitted into timber frames if that's what
you mean.


NT


In my (limited) experience this isn't correct.

In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to the
brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always. I grew up in a house with them and tehre was a bit of wood
there as well on some of them



Crittall still exist and make modern thermally broken DG versions
but they aren't cheap, and removing old crittall windows without
damaging the surrounding brickwork is not easy.

Angle grinder.


--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 15/10/2017 12:28, Andrew wrote:
On 15/10/2017 10:31, wrote:
On 14/10/2017 23:48, wrote:
... snipped.

Crittalls aren't normally fitted into timber frames if that's what
you mean.


NT


In my (limited) experience this isn't correct.

In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to the
brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always true in the 20s and 30s

.... snipped

In article ,
wrote:
In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to
the brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always true in the 20s and 30s

I've never seen a new build (in the 20s&30s) with Crittall where wood was
involved. Any examples?

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/10/2017 14:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to
the brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always true in the 20s and 30s

I've never seen a new build (in the 20s&30s) with Crittall where wood was
involved. Any examples?

errr, my house (Arts and Crafts style, built 1930s) for one, but there
is no shortage of examples around and about (and on the web). My frames
are hardwood with quite decorative internal mouldings and the Crittall
casements set into rebates - most will need rather a lot of TLC next year.

Wrote in message:
On 16/10/2017 14:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to
the brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always true in the 20s and 30s

I've never seen a new build (in the 20s&30s) with Crittall where wood was
involved. Any examples?

errr, my house (Arts and Crafts style, built 1930s) for one, but there
is no shortage of examples around and about (and on the web). My frames
are hardwood with quite decorative internal mouldings and the Crittall
casements set into rebates - most will need rather a lot of TLC next year.


Over to you Dave.......

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

In article ,
wrote:
On 16/10/2017 14:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
In the 50's and 60's Crittall windows were always fitted directly to
the brick opening, so your experience is indeed limited.

Not always true in the 20s and 30s

I've never seen a new build (in the 20s&30s) with Crittall where wood was
involved. Any examples?

errr, my house (Arts and Crafts style, built 1930s) for one, but there
is no shortage of examples around and about (and on the web). My frames
are hardwood with quite decorative internal mouldings and the Crittall
casements set into rebates - most will need rather a lot of TLC next year.

Ah - right. A fairy uncommon design? I was more thinking of Art Deco -
concrete everywhere.

--
*Arkansas State Motto: Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Laugh.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.