Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

Most of that is addressed with parallelled thermostats in all rooms plus TRVs. Remote control is another matter.

I bet there's a Rasp Pi implementation of this somewhere.


NT

On 10/10/17 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.


https://www.geniushub.co.uk/

I've set this up before and it's what I'll be using when I get the CH
fitted in a fortnight (hooray).

Downsides: Cost, batteries (these seem to last 1-2 years so not actually
that bad)

Upsides: Trivial to retrofit, British company, well known Z Wave parts
(except for the hub and software which is theirs), reliable.


The costs can be mitigated by selective zoning - eg leave TRVs in areas
likely to see more occupation. It's easy to buy an extra rad head later
and reconfigure the system.

Nice app, nice website, more importantly, local control if you poke
buttons on the rad valve or twiddle the optional wall mount stat for a
timed override.


The other reason I'd recommend them is they seem stable. Other companies
have form for dropping this type of thing, then relaunching a totally
different system. This is all these guys do, that's their focus.

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

You can get remotely controlled individual radiator valves.
EG
https://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell...FfUh0wodFPEGlg

On 10/10/2017 06:23, wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

Most of that is addressed with parallelled thermostats in all rooms plus TRVs. Remote control is another matter.

Not sure how that would work without active control of the TRV though?

I bet there's a Rasp Pi implementation of this somewhere.

More than likely...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/2017 08:50, Tim Watts wrote:
On 10/10/17 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart"
multi room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the
Honeywell Evo Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a
wet CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its
smart manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted
to system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.


https://www.geniushub.co.uk/

I've set this up before and it's what I'll be using when I get the CH
fitted in a fortnight (hooray).

Yup that looks quite modular and a reasonable price.

Downsides: Cost, batteries (these seem to last 1-2 years so not actually
that bad)

Upsides: Trivial to retrofit, British company, well known Z Wave parts
(except for the hub and software which is theirs), reliable.


The costs can be mitigated by selective zoning - eg leave TRVs in areas
likely to see more occupation. It's easy to buy an extra rad head later
and reconfigure the system.

Nice app, nice website, more importantly, local control if you poke
buttons on the rad valve or twiddle the optional wall mount stat for a
timed override.

Can you get down to room level control from the app?

The other reason I'd recommend them is they seem stable. Other companies
have form for dropping this type of thing, then relaunching a totally
different system. This is all these guys do, that's their focus.

Yup always handy.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/2017 08:57, harry wrote:

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

You can get remotely controlled individual radiator valves.
EG
https://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell...FfUh0wodFPEGlg

What experience have you had with those?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/17 11:12, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 08:50, Tim Watts wrote:

Hi John,

https://www.geniushub.co.uk/

I've set this up before and it's what I'll be using when I get the CH
fitted in a fortnight (hooray).

Yup that looks quite modular and a reasonable price.

Downsides: Cost, batteries (these seem to last 1-2 years so not actually
that bad)

Upsides: Trivial to retrofit, British company, well known Z Wave parts
(except for the hub and software which is theirs), reliable.


The costs can be mitigated by selective zoning - eg leave TRVs in areas
likely to see more occupation. It's easy to buy an extra rad head later
and reconfigure the system.

Nice app, nice website, more importantly, local control if you poke
buttons on the rad valve or twiddle the optional wall mount stat for a
timed override.

Can you get down to room level control from the app?

Yes. An example from where I installed one previously:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2550r54.png

http://i64.tinypic.com/2nsqp29.png

Essentially, you get a temperature profile per zone with 0.5C
adjustments and 5 minute granularity on a per day basis.

Notice the am slot is 22 and the pm is 21C

I do not know if there is a limit on how many temperature bands you can
set, but probably a lot more than anyone could ever want to set.

There's a "copy to room" and a "copy to day" for quicker replication of
a particular profile. It's pretty nice.

One thing that could be made better might be to have "heating sets" like
"Working at home" and "Out for the day" that would swap entire schedules
around.

In practise, though it works well - you can just "off" the room or the
whole house, then return it to "auto timed" upon return (or remotely via
phone).


One thing is worth understanding well though:

The rad valves are (or were) Danfoss Living Connect LC-13's. These are
actually programmed to the set point by the hub based on time.
Previously these valves could give no feedback when they wanted to
operated (setpointroom temp) so you *needed* an additional wall sensor.

Genius say they've solved that (possibly custom or modded firmware in
the head, not 100% sure) so you can run on the cheap, with the same
advantaged and disadvantages as a normal TRV (cold draughts from
windows, influenced by the radiator heat, hard to reach maybe).
You can programme an offset into the valve if it seems to have
consistent behaviour.


So you then have 2 choices of option room sensor. A passive temp sensor
with PIR detection that allows a "self programming profile" to be build
based on how it sees the room being occupied - or you can tell it to run
to a schedule.

The other is a more expensive "room stat" that looks traditional - knob
or buttons and LCD display of current temp and setpoint.


With heads only or heads + PIR sensor, you can poke a button on the rad
valve to manually override the room setpoint for a default time
(configurable per zone I think, 1-24 hours)

With the "room stat" unit, it's much more user friendly - poke buttons
and get heat.

Overrides are dead easy from the app/web too.

So it depends on the user base and to some extent where the rad valves are.

I'd recommend starting light as it is so easy to just buy the
sensors/stats and programme in if it turns out they are required in a
given location.

Boiler relay is a straight swap for room thermostat *if* you have L,N,
demand present. If no N then obviously, you'd have to site it nearer the
boiler wiring - but it's a radio relay, so that's not a problem.

The other reason I'd recommend them is they seem stable. Other companies
have form for dropping this type of thing, then relaunching a totally
different system. This is all these guys do, that's their focus.

Yup always handy.

On 10/10/17 11:08, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 06:23, wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

Most of that is addressed with parallelled thermostats in all rooms
plus TRVs. Remote control is another matter.

Not sure how that would work without active control of the TRV though?

I bet there's a Rasp Pi implementation of this somewhere.

More than likely...


Looking at the new builds here which are all UFH and heat pumps - God
help them in a power cut - its possible to run wires to each of the zone
valves on the manifolds and equip them with flow switches and room
thermostat but there is that way no master wired OR setup that will
fire up the heating when a single room needs it.

I think were I to doi it myself, again, I would equip each rooom with a
stat - possibly programmable - an off switch for 'not in use' and a
motorizied zone valve. All that would be run off the local ring main,
except the contacts from the MV which would all be parrleleed to provide
'call for heat' in the boiler.

You could do it in software, but in the end you need some means of
detecting room temps and some means of controlling flow to the roomn and
some means or telling the heat source - be it heatpump or boiler, that
its services are required.

And plumbers know about wires and MVs, but they can't code for toffee...

Their probably is an opportunity for a mains fed mains ethernet equipped
combination MV and roomstat.

And a mains ethernet equipped embedded controller sitting there and
running a web server as a UI and conotlling each MV and the boiler/heatpump

But as to rolling your own? just reduces the resale value of the house.

Use technology that plumbers and heating engineers are familiar with.






--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 10/10/17 11:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 08:57, harry wrote:

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:

Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

You can get remotely controlled individual radiator valves.
EG
https://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell...FfUh0wodFPEGlg


What experience have you had with those?


Now those look extermely promising, except its one per rad not one per
room :-(

And they wouldn't work necessarily on UFH.

But the general idea is 'yes, i'd do it like that' which is always
encouraging.

Domestic networking is a fact in many houses, so tying in some smart
controllers and dump stats and valves is just the ticket.



--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 15:43:27 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
And plumbers know about wires and MVs,

Most of them can just about join the dots with coloured flex (except the earth dots with stripey wires).

The easiest way for a plumber to get a wire anywhere is to cable tie it to a pipe. Preferably a hot one.

Owain

On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:41:48 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

One thing that could be made better might be to have "heating sets" like
"Working at home" and "Out for the day" that would swap entire schedules
around.


I very much agree. This is such an obvious thing yet all the auto systems seem to fail to provide it. I'd just like a simple button at the front door marked "going out for the day". If it is not pressed the system should assume I am in all day.


Robert

On 10/10/2017 17:02, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:41:48 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

One thing that could be made better might be to have "heating sets" like
"Working at home" and "Out for the day" that would swap entire schedules
around.


I very much agree. This is such an obvious thing yet all the auto systems seem to fail to provide it. I'd just like a simple button at the front door marked "going out for the day". If it is not pressed the system should assume I am in all day.


IIRC neither John Rumm nor Tim Watts are at an age where it's relevant
but these days I approach such systems with the thought "Don't ask
yourself if you're confident you can cope with it now, ask yourself if
you're confident of doing so 10 years from now."

AFAICS there's not a lot of design with an ageing population - or an
increasing population of aged - in mind. Perhaps it's a nudge to the
elderly to choose retirement homes (or Soylent Green factories).

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:50:28 +0100, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 10/10/17 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.


https://www.geniushub.co.uk/

I've set this up before and it's what I'll be using when I get the CH
fitted in a fortnight (hooray).

Thanks for the link. I might fit this before the winter.

Downsides: Cost, batteries (these seem to last 1-2 years so not actually
that bad)

The initial hardware cost of £ 250 - £ 300 seems a bit pricey at first
glance. But the luxury of being able to turn the boiler on without
getting out of bed is very tempting.

Upsides: Trivial to retrofit, British company, well known Z Wave parts
(except for the hub and software which is theirs), reliable.

On 10/10/2017 15:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/10/17 11:17, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 08:57, harry wrote:

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart"
multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell
Evo
Home range?

You can get remotely controlled individual radiator valves.
EG
https://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell...FfUh0wodFPEGlg


What experience have you had with those?


Now those look extermely promising, except its one per rad not one per
room :-(

Indeed.

To be fair my comment was just tickling harry about his inability to
read and comprehend, since he posted a link to the very system that I
quoted in the original question - presumably in case I had not worked
out how to use google, rather than having any practical experience with
the Honeywell Evo system. ;-)

And they wouldn't work necessarily on UFH.

no, but not a requirement in this case.

For UFH the Emmeti system looks better suited:

http://emmeti.co.uk/products/zone-controls/

But the general idea is 'yes, i'd do it like that' which is always
encouraging.

Domestic networking is a fact in many houses, so tying in some smart
controllers and dump stats and valves is just the ticket.

The networking bit should not pose any problem for the chap who wants
the system.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/2017 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.


I've done exactly this. The plumbing dated from the 1930s and the
heating system dated from the 1960s. It's not a small house and DIY
would have taken me months so I decided to get someone else to: replace
boiler, all plumbing, 23 rads, DHW tank, and 3 towel rads; add a DHW
return and a dedicated heating loop for the towel rads and airing
cupboard; remove all old tanks and pipework. They're at the final
commissioning stage as I type and the whole thing will have been about
45 man days work :eeek!
DHW and all rads are controlled by Honeywell Evohome. The towel rads and
DHW circulation are on timers. Each Evohome controller is capable of
controlling up to 12 zones; I haven't yet decided how best to zone the
rads but have opted for two controllers to give maximum flexibility.
It's too early to say much about the performance, but first impressions
are excellent. The rad valves are slightly noisy but it's the sort of
noise that the brain will ignore after a few weeks.
I'm not convinced that it's worth having DHW under Evohome control, but
I'll report back as experience grows.
I plan to add the gizzmo that gives me remote control from a browser.

I looked at some other systems but decided that the Honeywell system was
the one to go for. I'm happy to answer any specific questions.

On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 11:08:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 06:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 10 October 2017 03:03:37 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:

Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart" multi
room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the Honeywell Evo
Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a wet
CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its smart
manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted to
system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.

Most of that is addressed with parallelled thermostats in all rooms plus TRVs. Remote control is another matter.

Not sure how that would work without active control of the TRV though?

I hear a small heating element on the TRV can control them.

I bet there's a Rasp Pi implementation of this somewhere.

More than likely...

Robin grunted in
:

On 10/10/2017 17:02, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:41:48 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

One thing that could be made better might be to have "heating sets"
like "Working at home" and "Out for the day" that would swap entire
schedules around.


I very much agree. This is such an obvious thing yet all the auto
systems seem to fail to provide it. I'd just like a simple button at
the front door marked "going out for the day". If it is not pressed
the system should assume I am in all day.

IIRC neither John Rumm nor Tim Watts are at an age where it's relevant
but these days I approach such systems with the thought "Don't ask
yourself if you're confident you can cope with it now, ask yourself if
you're confident of doing so 10 years from now."

It's a valid point. However, having seen the horrendous conventional
programmer that my 85-year-old Mum had installed a couple of years ago, I
really doubt this would be more complicated. She has no clue how to operate
it, and quite frankly, neither do I. (I'm always loathe to even touch it,
as she lives a fair way away and I normally see her on long day trips, so
am scared of accidentally leaving it inactive the following morning after
I've gone. The fact that these newfangled systems connect to the
Internet, however, means that problems could hopefully be sorted out
remotely (in the same way that I spend half my life resolving Mum's IT
issues... )

David

On 10/10/2017 18:29, wrote:
On 10/10/2017 03:03, John Rumm wrote:
Does anyone have any experience of / recommendations for a "smart"
multi room CH zoning system? Thinking here of something like the
Honeywell Evo Home range?

A mate of mine is considering a system like this, but already has a
wet CH system installed, so things like the Emmeti system with its
smart manifolds is not really any use, as this needs to be retrofitted
to system already piped up in a conventional single zone.

Main desire is individual temperature control on a room by room basis,
and remote access to cope with difficult to plan occupancy times.


I've done exactly this. The plumbing dated from the 1930s and the
heating system dated from the 1960s. It's not a small house and DIY
would have taken me months so I decided to get someone else to: replace
boiler, all plumbing, 23 rads, DHW tank, and 3 towel rads; add a DHW
return and a dedicated heating loop for the towel rads and airing
cupboard; remove all old tanks and pipework. They're at the final
commissioning stage as I type and the whole thing will have been about
45 man days work :eeek!
DHW and all rads are controlled by Honeywell Evohome. The towel rads and
DHW circulation are on timers. Each Evohome controller is capable of
controlling up to 12 zones; I haven't yet decided how best to zone the
rads but have opted for two controllers to give maximum flexibility.
It's too early to say much about the performance, but first impressions
are excellent. The rad valves are slightly noisy but it's the sort of
noise that the brain will ignore after a few weeks.
I'm not convinced that it's worth having DHW under Evohome control, but
I'll report back as experience grows.
I plan to add the gizzmo that gives me remote control from a browser.

I looked at some other systems but decided that the Honeywell system was
the one to go for. I'm happy to answer any specific questions.

Thanks for that... yup, it would be interesting to have some real world
reports of a system in action.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/17 22:51, Lobster wrote:
Robin grunted in
:

On 10/10/2017 17:02, wrote:
On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 2:41:48 PM UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:

One thing that could be made better might be to have "heating sets"
like "Working at home" and "Out for the day" that would swap entire
schedules around.


I very much agree. This is such an obvious thing yet all the auto
systems seem to fail to provide it. I'd just like a simple button at
the front door marked "going out for the day". If it is not pressed
the system should assume I am in all day.

IIRC neither John Rumm nor Tim Watts are at an age where it's relevant
but these days I approach such systems with the thought "Don't ask
yourself if you're confident you can cope with it now, ask yourself if
you're confident of doing so 10 years from now."

It's a valid point. However, having seen the horrendous conventional
programmer that my 85-year-old Mum had installed a couple of years ago, I
really doubt this would be more complicated. She has no clue how to operate
it, and quite frankly, neither do I. (I'm always loathe to even touch it,
as she lives a fair way away and I normally see her on long day trips, so
am scared of accidentally leaving it inactive the following morning after
I've gone. The fact that these newfangled systems connect to the
Internet, however, means that problems could hopefully be sorted out
remotely (in the same way that I spend half my life resolving Mum's IT
issues... )


IT - especially gadgets - has been driven by ever increasing computer
power and a desire to lower costs by reducing the mumber of buttons.

And to get market share by adding 'feetchas'

The result is an ergonomic nightmare.

Solved by the use of a stripped down Linux web server and using a
computer or other browser capable device to program the device as in
e.g. a domestic router.

Here is a web page I developed to control an all software guitar
preamaplifiee/FX that I am intermittently working on. To do all those
knobs in real life would cost a couple of hundred for the panel alone.

(use scroll wheel and left mouse)

If the web paradigm becomes de facto in the realm of smart devices, and
it probably will, then programming stuff via a more familiar interface
will develop. Even if the devices themselves are simply SNMP capable,
(software) plugging into a master control panel...



David



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)