After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?


--
AnthonyL

On Mon, 09 Oct 2017 10:52:56 GMT, lid (AnthonyL)
coalesced the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful
comprehension...

After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

The latter, it's the primary circuit. The water you are adding will be
diluting the inhibitor, so the system may require redosing.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You're diluting any corrosion inhibitor and adding more limescale. You
may also over-pressurise things. Technically, i think you may be
breaking a water byelaw by connecting the radiator system to the mains
(semi) permanently.


2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

The boiler will probably refuse to fire up.


3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?



It's part of the radiator system.

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?


Once they have been lifted, these valves quite often don't seal again
IME. It is the pressurising system for the radiators (and the heating
coil in the hot water tank, if you have one).

I would not advise "drip feeding" it by cracking the filling valve
because you are losing inhibitor all the time the relief valve leaks,
but perhaps with one exception.

If you let the pressure drop to zero, the boiler should trip out leaving
you without any heat or hot water. If you (or other occupants) are
vulnerable to low temperatures and don't have any alternative heating it
is perhaps the lesser of two evils to waste your inhibitor. Explain this
to your plumber and they will test (or more likely replace) your
inhibitor when they fix the valve.

What do you mean by a drip? More than a bucket a day will be
significantly diluting your inhibitor, and also introducing limescale to
your boiler, which is (in general) a bad thing. If it is less than a cup
a day, and you can get a plumber in within a couple of days, you won't
really be doing much harm.

On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 12:14:24 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?


Once they have been lifted, these valves quite often don't seal again
IME. It is the pressurising system for the radiators (and the heating
coil in the hot water tank, if you have one).


That's what happened, it had to be disturbed when the diverter valve
was replaced. The service guy said he'd be back in a few days, that
was a month ago - now he says I need to rebook the job!

I would not advise "drip feeding" it by cracking the filling valve
because you are losing inhibitor all the time the relief valve leaks,
but perhaps with one exception.


Oh that's not good.

If you let the pressure drop to zero, the boiler should trip out leaving
you without any heat or hot water. If you (or other occupants) are
vulnerable to low temperatures and don't have any alternative heating it
is perhaps the lesser of two evils to waste your inhibitor. Explain this
to your plumber and they will test (or more likely replace) your
inhibitor when they fix the valve.


My wife wants the heating on at night.

What do you mean by a drip? More than a bucket a day will be
significantly diluting your inhibitor, and also introducing limescale to
your boiler, which is (in general) a bad thing. If it is less than a cup
a day, and you can get a plumber in within a couple of days, you won't
really be doing much harm.

Not measured by bucket, it's a thin stream.

Next question - how do you get someone to come out?

Any recommendations for around the north/north-east side of the city
of Nottingham welcomed.

--
AnthonyL

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You are continually adding fresh oxygenated water which will cause
accelerated corrosion and limescale deposition in the heating system.

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

Then the boiler will lock out or just refuse to fire next time it tries
to start up.

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

Its the primary water that flows though the boiler, and the rads.

If the boiler is a combi, then there will be a separate heat exchanger
for the tap water. (and that secondary heat exchanger HE is itself
heated by the primary water heated by the main heat exchanger - there is
normally a diversion valve in a combi which will direct the flow of
primary water either through the rads, or the tap water HE)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 13:37:00 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You are continually adding fresh oxygenated water which will cause
accelerated corrosion and limescale deposition in the heating system.

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

Then the boiler will lock out or just refuse to fire next time it tries
to start up.

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

Its the primary water that flows though the boiler, and the rads.

If the boiler is a combi, then there will be a separate heat exchanger
for the tap water. (and that secondary heat exchanger HE is itself
heated by the primary water heated by the main heat exchanger - there is
normally a diversion valve in a combi which will direct the flow of
primary water either through the rads, or the tap water HE)


Thanks.

I mentioned in one of the other posts that the problems started after
the combi diverter valve was replaced. So using hot water is going to
be an issue even if I turn the CH off?

PS none of the companies I've contacted today have got back to me

--
AnthonyL

On 09/10/2017 16:47, AnthonyL wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 13:37:00 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You are continually adding fresh oxygenated water which will cause
accelerated corrosion and limescale deposition in the heating system.

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

Then the boiler will lock out or just refuse to fire next time it tries
to start up.

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

Its the primary water that flows though the boiler, and the rads.

If the boiler is a combi, then there will be a separate heat exchanger
for the tap water. (and that secondary heat exchanger HE is itself
heated by the primary water heated by the main heat exchanger - there is
normally a diversion valve in a combi which will direct the flow of
primary water either through the rads, or the tap water HE)


Thanks.

I mentioned in one of the other posts that the problems started after
the combi diverter valve was replaced. So using hot water is going to
be an issue even if I turn the CH off?

I *think* combis will normally still give you hot water even if the CH
side locks out because of low system pressure. Personally I think they
are the spawn of the devil.


PS none of the companies I've contacted today have got back to me


Seems to be a common problem, presumably only about to get worse.

On 09/10/2017 16:47, AnthonyL wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 13:37:00 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You are continually adding fresh oxygenated water which will cause
accelerated corrosion and limescale deposition in the heating system.

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

Then the boiler will lock out or just refuse to fire next time it tries
to start up.

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

Its the primary water that flows though the boiler, and the rads.

If the boiler is a combi, then there will be a separate heat exchanger
for the tap water. (and that secondary heat exchanger HE is itself
heated by the primary water heated by the main heat exchanger - there is
normally a diversion valve in a combi which will direct the flow of
primary water either through the rads, or the tap water HE)


Thanks.

I mentioned in one of the other posts that the problems started after
the combi diverter valve was replaced. So using hot water is going to
be an issue even if I turn the CH off?

Alas yes.

You need the primary side filled and at adequate pressure to run the
rads or the hot water. When in hot water mode, the diversion valve short
circuits the primary loop such that it just flows through one side of
the secondary heat exchanger, and then back to the main heat exchanger
for reheating[1]. (The cold mains only flows through the other side of
the secondary heat exchanger).


[1] Just for extreme pedantry, there are a very small number of combi
boilers out there that actually have the tap water HE heated directly
from the gas just like the primary one, or instead divert the cold mains
water through the primary HE itself in place of the water normally
circulated to the rads.

PS none of the companies I've contacted today have got back to me

Fixing the over pressure relief valve is DIYable. (as would be replacing
it) if you can get to it reasonably easily. Chances are its just
acquired a bit of crud / scale / solder etc that is preventing it from
resealing correctly. Just taking apart anc cleaning it will probably fix
it.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 02:57:33 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 16:47, AnthonyL wrote:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 13:37:00 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 09/10/2017 11:52, AnthonyL wrote:
After being disturbed due to other work the pressure relief valve
appears not to be sealing and the pressure drops to zero. I can keep
the pressure up by cracking open the inlet tap just a tad, getting
about 2 bar, but of course water then drips out of the outlet pipe.

Whilst waiting for someone to come and fix it a few questions:

1) Am I causing any problem by doing what I'm doing?

You are continually adding fresh oxygenated water which will cause
accelerated corrosion and limescale deposition in the heating system.

2) What happens if I just let the pressure drop to zero?

Then the boiler will lock out or just refuse to fire next time it tries
to start up.

3) Is the water coming out just tap water or will there be CH radiator
water as well? ie is the pressurising isolated or part of the
radiator system?

Its the primary water that flows though the boiler, and the rads.

If the boiler is a combi, then there will be a separate heat exchanger
for the tap water. (and that secondary heat exchanger HE is itself
heated by the primary water heated by the main heat exchanger - there is
normally a diversion valve in a combi which will direct the flow of
primary water either through the rads, or the tap water HE)


Thanks.

I mentioned in one of the other posts that the problems started after
the combi diverter valve was replaced. So using hot water is going to
be an issue even if I turn the CH off?

Alas yes.

You need the primary side filled and at adequate pressure to run the
rads or the hot water. When in hot water mode, the diversion valve short
circuits the primary loop such that it just flows through one side of
the secondary heat exchanger, and then back to the main heat exchanger
for reheating[1]. (The cold mains only flows through the other side of
the secondary heat exchanger).


[1] Just for extreme pedantry, there are a very small number of combi
boilers out there that actually have the tap water HE heated directly
from the gas just like the primary one, or instead divert the cold mains
water through the primary HE itself in place of the water normally
circulated to the rads.

PS none of the companies I've contacted today have got back to me

Fixing the over pressure relief valve is DIYable. (as would be replacing
it) if you can get to it reasonably easily. Chances are its just
acquired a bit of crud / scale / solder etc that is preventing it from
resealing correctly. Just taking apart anc cleaning it will probably fix
it.


Thanks. I have a man coming this afternoon - arose out of a
recommendation from someone I don't know on a local message board I
frequent so that should be fun. To be fair the recommendation is from
someone who says he runs several properties. I'd like to do it myself
but I just know I'll put it all back together and it will be worse.

Whilst I agree that it may be crud the last guy did a few "blow outs"
and it seemed to work for a while. The part costs about £20 and mine
is a good 10yrs old.

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.



--
AnthonyL

On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:32:23 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

Well he came yesterday late afternoon, part in hand, and after a lot
of fiddling with a small allen key replaced the valve, repressured to
1 bar (the last guy went up to 1.5 bar), satisfied himself that the
expansion chamber appeared to be operating and gave me instructions to
check that the pressure didn't exceed 2 bar with the evening's
heating.

He seemed quite disinterested doing anything about inhibitor levels,
said he was out of the testing paper (litmus paper?) and I had to push
him to run through with me what I needed to do.

So today I drained about 1 litres off from the drain point below the
boiler, opened the 'drain' tap upstairs where the pipes go from the
back to the front of the house, drained another litre then added 1
litre Calmag Chem Protector, topped up with some distilled water and
tightened everything up, put the pressure back to 1 bar and checked
for leaks. The water that came out was quite clear.

I'll leave it a couple of hours to settle though I'm not sure if
that's necessary then my wife wants a shower.

Not sure if I've done all that is worthwhile. I'd like to just run
the pump for an hour but I don't know how to do that (Baxi 105 HE).





--
AnthonyL

On 11/10/2017 13:55, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:32:23 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

Well he came yesterday late afternoon, part in hand, and after a lot
of fiddling with a small allen key replaced the valve, repressured to
1 bar (the last guy went up to 1.5 bar), satisfied himself that the
expansion chamber appeared to be operating and gave me instructions to
check that the pressure didn't exceed 2 bar with the evening's
heating.

He seemed quite disinterested doing anything about inhibitor levels,
said he was out of the testing paper (litmus paper?) and I had to push
him to run through with me what I needed to do.

So today I drained about 1 litres off from the drain point below the
boiler, opened the 'drain' tap upstairs where the pipes go from the
back to the front of the house, drained another litre then added 1
litre Calmag Chem Protector, topped up with some distilled water and
tightened everything up, put the pressure back to 1 bar and checked
for leaks. The water that came out was quite clear.

I'll leave it a couple of hours to settle though I'm not sure if
that's necessary then my wife wants a shower.

Not sure if I've done all that is worthwhile. I'd like to just run
the pump for an hour but I don't know how to do that (Baxi 105 HE).

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/10/2017 13:55, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:32:23 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

Well he came yesterday late afternoon, part in hand, and after a lot
of fiddling with a small allen key replaced the valve, repressured to
1 bar (the last guy went up to 1.5 bar), satisfied himself that the
expansion chamber appeared to be operating and gave me instructions to
check that the pressure didn't exceed 2 bar with the evening's
heating.

He seemed quite disinterested doing anything about inhibitor levels,
said he was out of the testing paper (litmus paper?) and I had to push
him to run through with me what I needed to do.

So today I drained about 1 litres off from the drain point below the
boiler, opened the 'drain' tap upstairs where the pipes go from the
back to the front of the house, drained another litre then added 1
litre Calmag Chem Protector, topped up with some distilled water and
tightened everything up, put the pressure back to 1 bar and checked
for leaks. The water that came out was quite clear.

I'll leave it a couple of hours to settle though I'm not sure if
that's necessary then my wife wants a shower.

Not sure if I've done all that is worthwhile. I'd like to just run
the pump for an hour but I don't know how to do that (Baxi 105 HE).

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.



Do I need to bleed the rads? All the rads are on the ground floor of
a bungalow and the top up was done on the pipe above in the attic
which was filled to just overflowing and then cracked open (bled)
after I'd pressurised and water came out immediately.

I guess I'll just check the rads for cold tops and check the top pipe
again but otherwise all seems well.

--
AnthonyL

On 12/10/2017 12:37, AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/10/2017 13:55, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:32:23 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

Well he came yesterday late afternoon, part in hand, and after a lot
of fiddling with a small allen key replaced the valve, repressured to
1 bar (the last guy went up to 1.5 bar), satisfied himself that the
expansion chamber appeared to be operating and gave me instructions to
check that the pressure didn't exceed 2 bar with the evening's
heating.

He seemed quite disinterested doing anything about inhibitor levels,
said he was out of the testing paper (litmus paper?) and I had to push
him to run through with me what I needed to do.

So today I drained about 1 litres off from the drain point below the
boiler, opened the 'drain' tap upstairs where the pipes go from the
back to the front of the house, drained another litre then added 1
litre Calmag Chem Protector, topped up with some distilled water and
tightened everything up, put the pressure back to 1 bar and checked
for leaks. The water that came out was quite clear.

I'll leave it a couple of hours to settle though I'm not sure if
that's necessary then my wife wants a shower.

Not sure if I've done all that is worthwhile. I'd like to just run
the pump for an hour but I don't know how to do that (Baxi 105 HE).

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.



Do I need to bleed the rads? All the rads are on the ground floor of
a bungalow and the top up was done on the pipe above in the attic
which was filled to just overflowing and then cracked open (bled)
after I'd pressurised and water came out immediately.

Any air that was in the system, or that has come out of suspension from
the fresh water introduced will eventually accumulate in a rad somewhere.

I guess I'll just check the rads for cold tops and check the top pipe
again but otherwise all seems well.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 15:07:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 12/10/2017 12:37, AnthonyL wrote:

Do I need to bleed the rads? All the rads are on the ground floor of
a bungalow and the top up was done on the pipe above in the attic
which was filled to just overflowing and then cracked open (bled)
after I'd pressurised and water came out immediately.

Any air that was in the system,


or that has come out of suspension from
the fresh water introduced will eventually accumulate in a rad somewhere.


Got it, thanks


--
AnthonyL

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 11/10/2017 13:55, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:32:23 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 10/10/2017 11:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/10/2017 10:53, AnthonyL wrote:

My main worry know is the amount of fresh water I've introduced to the
system as this problem has been ongoing for a few weeks and I
understand a complete flush is a slow process.

No need for a flush generally, unless the system has lots of sludge in
it, just get them to add new inhibitor when the system is back up and
running.

If its a modern condensing boiler, then it might be worth getting a
magnetic/cyclonic filter (Fernox TF1, Magnaclean etc) fitted on the
return to the boiler if its not already got one. That would trap any
particulate material before it can get into the boiler and block or
damage the primary HE.

Any advice on what I should be getting the service guy to check?
Presumably all radiator fluid above the height of the valve will end
up draining out - fortunately as this is a bungalow that will only be
the pipes that go up and down.

There should be service valves on the flow and return to the boiler. So
he will be able to isolate that, and drain just the boiler. The rest of
the system can be left filled and untouched.

Just mention to him that you have had the problem for a while and so are
not sure what the inhibitor level will now be.


+1

Well he came yesterday late afternoon, part in hand, and after a lot
of fiddling with a small allen key replaced the valve, repressured to
1 bar (the last guy went up to 1.5 bar), satisfied himself that the
expansion chamber appeared to be operating and gave me instructions to
check that the pressure didn't exceed 2 bar with the evening's
heating.

He seemed quite disinterested doing anything about inhibitor levels,
said he was out of the testing paper (litmus paper?) and I had to push
him to run through with me what I needed to do.

So today I drained about 1 litres off from the drain point below the
boiler, opened the 'drain' tap upstairs where the pipes go from the
back to the front of the house, drained another litre then added 1
litre Calmag Chem Protector, topped up with some distilled water and
tightened everything up, put the pressure back to 1 bar and checked
for leaks. The water that came out was quite clear.

I'll leave it a couple of hours to settle though I'm not sure if
that's necessary then my wife wants a shower.

Not sure if I've done all that is worthwhile. I'd like to just run
the pump for an hour but I don't know how to do that (Baxi 105 HE).

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.



That didn't last long

I bled the rads as suggested the next day.

Yesterday morning the rads were cold, boiler error light on:

Pump Fault or Low Pressure

The pressure was at 2.0 bar.

Switched to off - clicked to reset and working again. Working
pressure around 2.3 bar.

This morning my wife come's screaming in shivering, got into the
shower and the water was cold. Same fault indication - repeated reset
procedure and ok again.

One unsettling thing, when I bled the rads I took the pressure to 1.3
bar - it is now sitting, and not changing, at 2 bar which is a little
on the high side.

If the inlet isn't turned fully off this should surely be creeping up
- so why has it risen and is it a factor in the boiler turning itself
off.

Just a recap:
12/7 Standard boiler service
09/8 Rads not heating, new diverter valve assembly fitted
10/8 Pressure dropping and leaking through the pipe outside
This sort of stabilised until
14/9 no longer stable, dropping and dripping outside
10/10 New prv fitted
11/10 Added Calmag
17/10 Bled system
1/11 Above faults started

--
AnthonyL

On 02/11/2017 12:49, AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.

That didn't last long

I bled the rads as suggested the next day.

Yesterday morning the rads were cold, boiler error light on:

Pump Fault or Low Pressure

The pressure was at 2.0 bar.

That ought to be plenty...

(are you sure the gauge is working?)

Switched to off - clicked to reset and working again. Working
pressure around 2.3 bar.

This morning my wife come's screaming in shivering, got into the
shower and the water was cold.

Tell her to stick her hand in it first to test the water temperature!

Same fault indication - repeated reset
procedure and ok again.

One unsettling thing, when I bled the rads I took the pressure to 1.3
bar - it is now sitting, and not changing, at 2 bar which is a little
on the high side.

If the inlet isn't turned fully off this should surely be creeping up
- so why has it risen and is it a factor in the boiler turning itself

Is this a boiler with a built in filling loop or the normal braided
detachable type?

If its detachable, and your turn off both taps and detach it, is there
any water coming out?

Just a recap:
12/7 Standard boiler service
09/8 Rads not heating, new diverter valve assembly fitted
10/8 Pressure dropping and leaking through the pipe outside
This sort of stabilised until
14/9 no longer stable, dropping and dripping outside
10/10 New prv fitted
11/10 Added Calmag
17/10 Bled system
1/11 Above faults started





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:04:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2017 12:49, AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.

That didn't last long

I bled the rads as suggested the next day.

Yesterday morning the rads were cold, boiler error light on:

Pump Fault or Low Pressure

The pressure was at 2.0 bar.

That ought to be plenty...

(are you sure the gauge is working?)

Switched to off - clicked to reset and working again. Working
pressure around 2.3 bar.

This morning my wife come's screaming in shivering, got into the
shower and the water was cold.

Tell her to stick her hand in it first to test the water temperature!

Same fault indication - repeated reset
procedure and ok again.

One unsettling thing, when I bled the rads I took the pressure to 1.3
bar - it is now sitting, and not changing, at 2 bar which is a little
on the high side.

If the inlet isn't turned fully off this should surely be creeping up
- so why has it risen and is it a factor in the boiler turning itself

Is this a boiler with a built in filling loop or the normal braided
detachable type?

If its detachable, and your turn off both taps and detach it, is there
any water coming out?


Thanks again for your input John.

The filling loop is braided. I'll have a go at detaching it tomorrow
when I can afford to turn the heating off again. But if it was
leaking the pressure surely would just slowly continue to rise and the
pressure relief valve pipe is as dry as a bone.

I went around the bungalow again and checked/bled the radiators.
There is one that spluttered for quite a while and it is the same one
that did the same when I bled them a couple of weeks back after
putting the inhibitor in.

There is a nice description of the pressure system at

http://www.lovekin.net/system-pressure.html

I'm wondering now if there is an issue with the expansion chamber
introducing a leak into the system.

Of course the engineer will say it's easy to fit another one but the
costs of this boiler are mounting up - what next? Pump? Circuit
board? Classic dilema of throwing money at it when getting a new one
instead of having it serviced may have been a better option.


--
AnthonyL

On 02/11/2017 18:48, AnthonyL wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:04:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2017 12:49, AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.

That didn't last long

I bled the rads as suggested the next day.

Yesterday morning the rads were cold, boiler error light on:

Pump Fault or Low Pressure

The pressure was at 2.0 bar.

That ought to be plenty...

(are you sure the gauge is working?)

Switched to off - clicked to reset and working again. Working
pressure around 2.3 bar.

This morning my wife come's screaming in shivering, got into the
shower and the water was cold.

Tell her to stick her hand in it first to test the water temperature!

Same fault indication - repeated reset
procedure and ok again.

One unsettling thing, when I bled the rads I took the pressure to 1.3
bar - it is now sitting, and not changing, at 2 bar which is a little
on the high side.

If the inlet isn't turned fully off this should surely be creeping up
- so why has it risen and is it a factor in the boiler turning itself

Is this a boiler with a built in filling loop or the normal braided
detachable type?

If its detachable, and your turn off both taps and detach it, is there
any water coming out?


Thanks again for your input John.

The filling loop is braided. I'll have a go at detaching it tomorrow
when I can afford to turn the heating off again.

You should not need to turn the heating off just to remove the loop.
There will typically be a tap at both ends (or sometimes just a tap at
one end and a non return valve at the far end). Its purpose is just to
add water to the system. Normally it should be completely off. The
purpose of actually removing (at least one end of) the hose is just to
check that the taps are not letting by. If they are, then that could
explain the apparent rise in pressure.

Another possibility is the that the pressure gauge itself does not work
correctly any more. (I met one of those the other day when I helped a
friend remove a rad and tweak some CH pipework - when I went to
re-pressurise the gauge seemed stuck on about 1/4 bar and would not budge)

But if it was
leaking the pressure surely would just slowly continue to rise and the
pressure relief valve pipe is as dry as a bone.

I went around the bungalow again and checked/bled the radiators.
There is one that spluttered for quite a while and it is the same one
that did the same when I bled them a couple of weeks back after
putting the inhibitor in.

There is a nice description of the pressure system at

http://www.lovekin.net/system-pressure.html

I'm wondering now if there is an issue with the expansion chamber
introducing a leak into the system.

Expansion chamber issues are usually when it does not handle expansion
correctly - so you would expect to see the pressure shoot up when the
system heats. That quite often results in the PRV letting go, and then
the system may have insufficient pressure to restart the following day
when starting from properly cold.

Of course the engineer will say it's easy to fit another one but the
costs of this boiler are mounting up - what next? Pump? Circuit
board? Classic dilema of throwing money at it when getting a new one
instead of having it serviced may have been a better option.

Its quite common for one rad in particular to acquire most of the air
that comes out of the system. You also normally can bleed more out of it
some time having fully bled it a week before - again as more dissolved
air comes out of the water over time.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 2 Nov 2017 20:45:10 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2017 18:48, AnthonyL wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2017 17:04:19 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 02/11/2017 12:49, AnthonyL wrote:
On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 23:00:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Don't worry, just let it run for a day, bleed the rads again and top up
some more from the filling loop if you need to.

That didn't last long

I bled the rads as suggested the next day.

Yesterday morning the rads were cold, boiler error light on:

Pump Fault or Low Pressure

The pressure was at 2.0 bar.

That ought to be plenty...

(are you sure the gauge is working?)

Switched to off - clicked to reset and working again. Working
pressure around 2.3 bar.

This morning my wife come's screaming in shivering, got into the
shower and the water was cold.

Tell her to stick her hand in it first to test the water temperature!

Same fault indication - repeated reset
procedure and ok again.

One unsettling thing, when I bled the rads I took the pressure to 1.3
bar - it is now sitting, and not changing, at 2 bar which is a little
on the high side.

If the inlet isn't turned fully off this should surely be creeping up
- so why has it risen and is it a factor in the boiler turning itself

Is this a boiler with a built in filling loop or the normal braided
detachable type?

If its detachable, and your turn off both taps and detach it, is there
any water coming out?


Thanks again for your input John.

The filling loop is braided. I'll have a go at detaching it tomorrow
when I can afford to turn the heating off again.

You should not need to turn the heating off just to remove the loop.
There will typically be a tap at both ends (or sometimes just a tap at
one end and a non return valve at the far end). Its purpose is just to
add water to the system. Normally it should be completely off. The
purpose of actually removing (at least one end of) the hose is just to
check that the taps are not letting by. If they are, then that could
explain the apparent rise in pressure.


Yes I see how it works. The one on the mains side which is the one I
use to re-pressurise has broken its plastic handle so I need a spanner
to rotate the square. The other end is an inline tap/valve (don't
know which) which requires a screwdriver, presumably to turn 90deg. It
probably hasn't been turned off since install and the fittings not
removed since install. Knowing me water will leak and I'll not get
the fittings securely back on. Anyhow since bleeding the pressure has
remained satisfactory.

Another possibility is the that the pressure gauge itself does not work
correctly any more. (I met one of those the other day when I helped a
friend remove a rad and tweak some CH pipework - when I went to
re-pressurise the gauge seemed stuck on about 1/4 bar and would not budge)


The gauge is fine. It responds immediately to any bleeding or
repressurising and goes now from 1.0 when cold to 1.5 when working.

I'm wondering now if there is an issue with the expansion chamber
introducing a leak into the system.

Expansion chamber issues are usually when it does not handle expansion
correctly - so you would expect to see the pressure shoot up when the
system heats. That quite often results in the PRV letting go, and then
the system may have insufficient pressure to restart the following day
when starting from properly cold.

Of course the engineer will say it's easy to fit another one but the
costs of this boiler are mounting up - what next? Pump? Circuit
board? Classic dilema of throwing money at it when getting a new one
instead of having it serviced may have been a better option.

Its quite common for one rad in particular to acquire most of the air
that comes out of the system. You also normally can bleed more out of it
some time having fully bled it a week before - again as more dissolved
air comes out of the water over time.


Right I'll keep doing this one. All the others immediately let out
water, this splutters. The bleed valves are on the back side not on
the edge. Messy even with a sponge and a little plastic bowl.

Does it matter whether bleeding is done cold with no pump or when
operating normally?

And would air upset the pressure and/or the pump?

--
AnthonyL

On 03/11/2017 09:48, AnthonyL wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2017 20:45:10 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

You should not need to turn the heating off just to remove the loop.
There will typically be a tap at both ends (or sometimes just a tap at
one end and a non return valve at the far end). Its purpose is just to
add water to the system. Normally it should be completely off. The
purpose of actually removing (at least one end of) the hose is just to
check that the taps are not letting by. If they are, then that could
explain the apparent rise in pressure.


Yes I see how it works. The one on the mains side which is the one I
use to re-pressurise has broken its plastic handle so I need a spanner
to rotate the square. The other end is an inline tap/valve (don't
know which) which requires a screwdriver, presumably to turn 90deg. It
probably hasn't been turned off since install and the fittings not
removed since install. Knowing me water will leak and I'll not get
the fittings securely back on. Anyhow since bleeding the pressure has
remained satisfactory.

If the second valve is actually a tap, then you would need to turn it
off before removing the filling loop anyway. (if it is (or has) a non
return valve then it should stay water tight, and you would be able to
remove the loop regardless of the tap position)

Another possibility is the that the pressure gauge itself does not work
correctly any more. (I met one of those the other day when I helped a
friend remove a rad and tweak some CH pipework - when I went to
re-pressurise the gauge seemed stuck on about 1/4 bar and would not budge)


The gauge is fine. It responds immediately to any bleeding or
repressurising and goes now from 1.0 when cold to 1.5 when working.

ok that's good.

I'm wondering now if there is an issue with the expansion chamber
introducing a leak into the system.

Expansion chamber issues are usually when it does not handle expansion
correctly - so you would expect to see the pressure shoot up when the
system heats. That quite often results in the PRV letting go, and then
the system may have insufficient pressure to restart the following day
when starting from properly cold.

Of course the engineer will say it's easy to fit another one but the
costs of this boiler are mounting up - what next? Pump? Circuit
board? Classic dilema of throwing money at it when getting a new one
instead of having it serviced may have been a better option.

Its quite common for one rad in particular to acquire most of the air
that comes out of the system. You also normally can bleed more out of it
some time having fully bled it a week before - again as more dissolved
air comes out of the water over time.


Right I'll keep doing this one. All the others immediately let out
water, this splutters. The bleed valves are on the back side not on
the edge. Messy even with a sponge and a little plastic bowl.

Does it matter whether bleeding is done cold with no pump or when
operating normally?

Its usually better to do cold (less chance of scalding yourself, or
confusing the pressure detection in the boiler)

And would air upset the pressure and/or the pump?

The pump, not really unless there is a very significant amount of air.
The pressure will drop a bit with bleeding. After a couple of bleedings
there will be progressively less each time anyway (so long as its not
gas from corrosion that's accumulating). A small amount of air in one
rad is not really a problem if its still getting warm enough.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/