I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?

On 05/10/2017 17:38, ss wrote:
I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p)


Why?

"ss" wrote in message ...
I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge, it only amounts
to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on daily/weekly or monthly
basis by area?

According to [the] National Grid,

"Gas passing through the National Grid pipeline system has a CV of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3."

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/

Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

This accords with something I read before, about its being variable, But not
quite that variable. According to my calculations a range of 5.5 is equivalent
to 12.8%.

That also accords with my own somewhat less scientific observations when cooking
by gas, that on some days the gas seems a lot hotter than on others. 12.8% hotter
as it turns out.

I very much doubt [the] National Grid would ever publish figures indicating any
difference in the CV values as measured at the 110 different locations. As these
probably vary on a daily basis and would open them up to all sorts of claims
and complaints.


michael adams

....

On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael. The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my
statement does not equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my
statement was issued which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for
that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to
track down a source for the CV figures to compare to what they state/charge.

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael. The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my statement does not
equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my statement was issued
which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at 39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to track down a
source for the CV figures to compare to what they state/charge.

As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

Basically National Grid are saying that they can only guarantee to supply gas to the
various Gas Co's within that range. But they can't guarantee to supply a specific
value at any one time. As National Grid they'll take regular readings to ensure
the supply falls within that range but won't supply that information to the Gas CO's.

Both your previous supplier and this one are simply quoting nominal figures
which are slightly less than the mid point of the National Grid range which would
be 40.25. Other than that, neither they nor National Grid have any way of measuring
the CV value of the supply to your house with any accuracy.


michael adams

....

On 05/10/2017 18:59, michael adams wrote:
As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

I understand your comments and I couldnt care less about the few pence,
but if they are going to charge 39.57 on the statement which then on
that same statement I argue that they should quote 39.57 and not 39.3.

I am probably having a personal tantrum over this but I have my own
spreadsheet and each month I enter the gas and elec readings and it
gives me the exact amount the utility company charges (or did
previously) so it gives me a check on their charges plus a bit of
personal satisfaction that my spreadsheet actually works. I now have to
do other manual changes to cope with their inaccurate statements/figures.

Ah the joys of retirement when you have the time to get uptight over the
small things in life.

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 05/10/2017 18:59, michael adams wrote:
As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

I understand your comments and I couldnt care less about the few pence, but if they are
going to charge 39.57 on the statement which then on that same statement I argue that
they should quote 39.57 and not 39.3.

Reading further down the link it states the following

quote
The amount of energy consumed by a customer is calculated
using the following formula:
The United Kingdom mainland has been subdivided into thirteen
charging areas.
A daily CV average for each charging area is provided by
National Grid to the gas shippers and suppliers, and is calculated
as follows:-

[...]

The daily CV average for the charging area is then calculated
by summing the product of the CV and volume for all the inputs and
dividing by the total volume of gas entering the charging area.


/quote

Basically the CV for your charging area changes daily.
Your bill for say 90 days will be the average of those CV's.

Possibly that's where the two figures come in. One figure was
the CV on a particular day while the other is the average CV over
the whole charging period.

And its on this (higher in this case) average that your charge will
be based.

Given that the CV changes daily -

Say you go on holiday for 2 weeks, then your bill won't be correct
because it includes 14 readings for days when you didn't use any gas.
Similarly if you use a different amount of gas on different days with
a different CV then again the bill won't accurately reflect your use.


I am probably having a personal tantrum over this but I have my own spreadsheet and
each month I enter the gas and elec readings and it gives me the exact amount the
utility company charges (or did previously) so it gives me a check on their charges
plus a bit of personal satisfaction that my spreadsheet actually works. I now have to
do other manual changes to cope with their inaccurate statements/figures.

Possibly the reason the figures don't reconcile is simply because you're not
using the higher (in this case) average CV which covers the whole month ?


Ah the joys of retirement when you have the time to get uptight over the small things
in life.

If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.


michael adams

....



as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

On 05/10/2017 21:11, michael adams wrote:
If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.

as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

From what I gather the companies use set points to monitor the CV, I
have now got that on a website so can check against their readings for
accuaracy.

On 06/10/2017 08:07, Chris Hogg wrote:
OOI, why does the CV vary? I assume it's down to the mix of gases
within the supply (methane, propane, butane etc.), but is this
actually the case do you know, or does it also contain
non-combustibles such as nitrogen or CO2 in varying amounts depending
on source, processing etc. ?

A good working approximation is mostly methane 96% with some ethane 3%
and traces of propane and butane. Some CO2 and N2 as inerts 1%.

Can't find a UK analysis certificate but natural gas is similar the
world over and Canada gas are a bit more open:

https://www.enbridgegas.com/assets/d...uly%202017.pdf

Since it is a by volume supply measure you get more calorific value in
an ethane rich mix and less if there is more N2 and CO2 than normal.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 05/10/2017 21:38, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 21:11, michael adams wrote:
If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used
very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.

as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your
neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

From what I gather the companies use set points to monitor the CV, I
have now got that on a website so can check against their readings for
accuaracy.

There is legislation which governs how suppliers use CVs to bill you
plus OFGEM guidance on its interpretation. I suggest you look at:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...nsumer-billing

Note especially:

"National Grid is responsible for determining the daily average CV for
each charging area. National Grid publishes this daily average CV for
each charging area rounded to one decimal place in accordance with
Regulation 4 (4) (set out in Appendix 1). National Grid then transmits
this daily calorific value electronically to gas transporters and gas
suppliers for their respective uses."

You can get the data at:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 05/10/2017 18:28, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations
in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael.Â* The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my
statement does not equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my
statement was issued which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for
that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to
track down a source for the CV figures to compare to what they
state/charge.

So your previous suppliers designed their billing software better.
Presumably your current bill was designed a) by someone who didn't think
about the presentation and b) who didn't understand the natural
variations in the supply anyway.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 05/10/2017 21:38, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 21:11, michael adams wrote:
If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.

as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

From what I gather the companies use set points to monitor the CV, I have now got
that on a website so can check against their readings for accuaracy.

There is legislation which governs how suppliers use CVs to bill you plus OFGEM
guidance on its interpretation. I suggest you look at:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...nsumer-billing

Note especially:

"National Grid is responsible for determining the daily average CV for each charging
area. National Grid publishes this daily average CV for each charging area rounded to
one decimal place in accordance with Regulation 4 (4) (set out in Appendix 1). National
Grid then transmits this daily calorific value electronically to gas transporters and
gas suppliers for their respective uses."

You can get the data at:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/



The CV used for the charging period will be an average of all the
daily CV readings for the OP's charging area, during that period .
Its almost certain that one of the CV values on the OP's bill will
match that average.

If the site includes historical data this will allow the OP to calculate
this for himself for past bills. Otherwise preumably it will need to
be updated on a daily basis.

The OP's problem however is why there are two figures given
on his Bill.

" They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57 ".

Now if the company's customers were confined to statisticians*; then
quite possibly one of those the figures might represent something
quite exotic. But as the bills are aimed at the public that doesn't really
wash.


michael adams

* Or even people with A Level Maths and good memories

....

On 06/10/2017 12:21, michael adams wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 05/10/2017 21:38, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 21:11, michael adams wrote:
If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.

as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

From what I gather the companies use set points to monitor the CV, I have now got
that on a website so can check against their readings for accuaracy.

There is legislation which governs how suppliers use CVs to bill you plus OFGEM
guidance on its interpretation. I suggest you look at:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...nsumer-billing

Note especially:

"National Grid is responsible for determining the daily average CV for each charging
area. National Grid publishes this daily average CV for each charging area rounded to
one decimal place in accordance with Regulation 4 (4) (set out in Appendix 1). National
Grid then transmits this daily calorific value electronically to gas transporters and
gas suppliers for their respective uses."

You can get the data at:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/



The CV used for the charging period will be an average of all the
daily CV readings for the OP's charging area, during that period .
Its almost certain that one of the CV values on the OP's bill will
match that average.

Indeed it ought to. As stated in the regs and in the OFGEM guidance.

But the OP seemed to want to _check_ their calculation.

Anyhow, his opening question was "Is there a website that gives the
calorific values for gas on daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?" so I
thought I'd answer that. I didn't seem any harm in doing so.


If the site includes historical data this will allow the OP to calculate
this for himself for past bills. Otherwise preumably it will need to
be updated on a daily basis.

It allows one to download the daily figures for whatever period you want
for at least the past 6 years. That's why I pointed him to it.

The OP's problem however is why there are two figures given
on his Bill.

" They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57 ".

Now if the company's customers were confined to statisticians*; then
quite possibly one of those the figures might represent something
quite exotic. But as the bills are aimed at the public that doesn't really
wash.

I'd prefer to see exactly what the bill shows before commenting on that.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2017 12:21, michael adams wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 05/10/2017 21:38, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 21:11, michael adams wrote:
If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.

as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

From what I gather the companies use set points to monitor the CV, I have now got
that on a website so can check against their readings for accuaracy.

There is legislation which governs how suppliers use CVs to bill you plus OFGEM
guidance on its interpretation. I suggest you look at:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publication...nsumer-billing

Note especially:

"National Grid is responsible for determining the daily average CV for each charging
area. National Grid publishes this daily average CV for each charging area rounded to
one decimal place in accordance with Regulation 4 (4) (set out in Appendix 1).
National
Grid then transmits this daily calorific value electronically to gas transporters and
gas suppliers for their respective uses."

You can get the data at:

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/



The CV used for the charging period will be an average of all the
daily CV readings for the OP's charging area, during that period .
Its almost certain that one of the CV values on the OP's bill will
match that average.

Indeed it ought to. As stated in the regs and in the OFGEM guidance.

But the OP seemed to want to _check_ their calculation.

Anyhow, his opening question was "Is there a website that gives the calorific values
for gas on daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?" so I thought I'd answer that. I
didn't seem any harm in doing so.

Indeed. It should allow him to find out whch of the two CV figures on the bill
is the actual average. Possibly the actual start and finish dates might
be crucial depending on the the daily rate of change, so he might need to
adjust the dates to get a match.



If the site includes historical data this will allow the OP to calculate
this for himself for past bills. Otherwise preumably it will need to
be updated on a daily basis.

It allows one to download the daily figures for whatever period you want for at least
the past 6 years. That's why I pointed him to it.

The OP's problem however is why there are two figures given
on his Bill.

" They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57 ".

Now if the company's customers were confined to statisticians*; then
quite possibly one of those the figures might represent something
quite exotic. But as the bills are aimed at the public that doesn't really
wash.

I'd prefer to see exactly what the bill shows before commenting on that.

Unfortunately the company in question Bulb Energy don't seem to provide
much information about their bills online along the lines of "What do the
figures mean" or maybe I simply can't find it.


michael adams

....

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .

How is gas pressure taken into account in these calcs?

According to National Grid

"The CV of gas, which is dry, gross and measured at standard
conditions of temperature (15oC) and pressure(1013.25 millibars),
is usually quoted in Megajoules per cubic metre (MJ/m3)".

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/

So they're claiming its a constant 1013.25 millibars; allegedly
throughout the whole system. And as pressure can make a difference,
at least so I'm told, presumably its open anyone with the necessary
measuring equipment to argue with them about this, as well.

michael adams

....

On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your
bill" stating a CV of 39.3 the actual amount they charge is based on an
average of 39.57CV but they dont tell you that so it looks like they are
overcharging.

Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area
and my figures state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom
of my statement and I get an average of 40.22 CV for the period in question.

So back to Bulb :-) Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour
but their statements are all over the place.

On 06/10/2017 13:36, michael adams wrote:
So they're claiming its a constant 1013.25 millibars; allegedly
throughout the whole system. And as pressure can make a difference,
at least so I'm told, presumably its open anyone with the necessary
measuring equipment to argue with them about this, as well.

AIUI the regulators keep a constant pressure _compared to atmospheric_.

Bearing in mind that atmospheric ranges from under 900 to over 1050 this
will affect the amount of gas you get - by 15% or so. Run you heating in
a high.

BTW Wikipeda says 1010.25 is the standard atmosphere. The gas _has_ to
be above that, but I don't think by very much. A quick google suggests
~21mb.

Andy

On 06/10/2017 21:29, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 06/10/2017 13:36, michael adams wrote:
So they're claiming its a constant 1013.25 millibars; allegedly
throughout the whole system. And as pressure can make a difference,
at least so I'm told, presumably its open anyone with the necessary
measuring equipment to argue with them about this, as well.

AIUI the regulators keep a constant pressure _compared to atmospheric_.

Bearing in mind that atmospheric ranges from under 900 to over 1050 this
will affect the amount of gas you get - by 15% or so. Run you heating in
a high.

BTW Wikipeda says 1010.25 is the standard atmosphere. The gas _has_ to
be above that, but I don't think by very much. A quick google suggests
~21mb.

Andy

I guess there are pressure sensors widely distributed around the local
network that monitor the pressure to ensure that the mains have enough
pressure, which is surely at least a good fraction of a bar. There is a
regulator (a bit like a divers' demand regulator) with your gas meter,
and this is what sets your nominal 21 millibar (above atmospheric) after
the meter.

On 06/10/2017 20:17, ss wrote:
On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your
bill" stating a CV of 39.3Â* the actual amount they charge is based on an
average of 39.57CV but they dont tell you that so it looks like they are
overcharging.

Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area
and my figures state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom
of my statement and I get an average of 40.22 CV for the period in
question.

So back to Bulb :-)Â* Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour
but their statements are all over the place.


You are making the mistake of assuming that Bulb Energy is selling gas.
They are not, they are selling contracts on the basis of meter readings.

Much the same way that certain "electricity suppliers" claim that all
their energy is green, even though it isn't, really. It's just that
their green purchase contracts, averaged over time, balance their
"green" sales (and I'm not even sure if Ofcom monitor this).

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your bill" stating a
CV of 39.3 the actual amount they charge is based on an average of 39.57CV but they
dont tell you that so it looks like they are overcharging.

So that one of these figures is what used to be called and maybe
still is a "worked example". In the "old days" the bills were printed
in two stages - the body of the bill including the worked example,
was printed by one process, and the figures and the address etc
were very obviously printed by another process and then merged .
A bit clunky in other words.
However nowadays my bills appear to be printed in one go on what
appear to be inkjets and given modern fast processors there's probably
no reason why they couldn't if they wanted, use the correct figures
and calculate the worked example on the fly before merging that into
the bill. And then at least they'd have at least one more satisfied
customer.


Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area and my figures
state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom of my statement and I get an
average of 40.22 CV for the period in question.

If you shuffle back and forth along potential start and finish dates for CV
figures for the billing period I think you'll eventually find a range which
produces a figure which matches the figure on your bill


So back to Bulb :-) Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour but their
statements are all over the place.

Basically if you're paying a good i.e cheap price for a staple
commodity such as gas, then unless they're consistently lucky
with their forward buying then the only way they can do this
is cut back on their support operations. The people you contact
may quite possibly be employees of a call centre with no technical
knowledge about billing. Their responses may well be monitored,
as will the time they take to get you off of the phone. It's
not a job you'd really want to wish on anyone - except an
enemy.


michael adams

....

On 08/10/2017 13:49, newshound wrote:
I guess there are pressure sensors widely distributed around the local
network that monitor the pressure to ensure that the mains have enough
pressure, which is surely at least a good fraction of a bar. There is a
regulator (a bit like a divers' demand regulator) with your gas meter,
and this is what sets your nominal 21 millibar (above atmospheric) after
the meter.

The point is that you're billed by cubic metre times a factor, and the
mass of gas in a cubic metre varies with pressure.

Andy

newshound wrote:

Much the same way that certain "electricity suppliers" claim that all
their energy is green, even though it isn't, really. It's just that
their green purchase contracts, averaged over time, balance their
"green" sales (and I'm not even sure if Ofcom monitor this).

Much the same with "Bio Gas" buses.

https://www.nctx.co.uk/about-us/gasbus/

"Our supplier produces the bio-gas through anaerobic digestion
and injects it into the national gas grid at the nearest point to
production. We draw out an equivalent volume of gas from the
nearest national gas grid point to our Parliament Street Garage,
where it is compressed and stored until the bus is fuelled up
each night."

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 08/10/2017 21:03, michael adams wrote:

Basically if you're paying a good i.e cheap price for a staple
commodity such as gas, then unless they're consistently lucky
with their forward buying then the only way they can do this
is cut back on their support operations.


You can be more efficient in your support operations to reduce costs.

One way of doing this is by not supplying confusing bills necessitating
customers to query the amount. In this case it is simply that they
quote one figure and then calculate the bill using another.

The quality of customer support has nothing to do with the price you
pay. Often the more expensive suppliers have the worst customer support.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk