I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?

On 05/10/2017 17:38, ss wrote:
I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p)


Why?

"ss" wrote in message ...
I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge, it only amounts
to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on daily/weekly or monthly
basis by area?

According to [the] National Grid,

"Gas passing through the National Grid pipeline system has a CV of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3."

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/UK/Indu...e-description/

Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

This accords with something I read before, about its being variable, But not
quite that variable. According to my calculations a range of 5.5 is equivalent
to 12.8%.

That also accords with my own somewhat less scientific observations when cooking
by gas, that on some days the gas seems a lot hotter than on others. 12.8% hotter
as it turns out.

I very much doubt [the] National Grid would ever publish figures indicating any
difference in the CV values as measured at the 110 different locations. As these
probably vary on a daily basis and would open them up to all sorts of claims
and complaints.


michael adams

....

On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael. The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my
statement does not equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my
statement was issued which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for
that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to
track down a source for the CV figures to compare to what they state/charge.

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael. The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my statement does not
equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my statement was issued
which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at 39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to track down a
source for the CV figures to compare to what they state/charge.

As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

Basically National Grid are saying that they can only guarantee to supply gas to the
various Gas Co's within that range. But they can't guarantee to supply a specific
value at any one time. As National Grid they'll take regular readings to ensure
the supply falls within that range but won't supply that information to the Gas CO's.

Both your previous supplier and this one are simply quoting nominal figures
which are slightly less than the mid point of the National Grid range which would
be 40.25. Other than that, neither they nor National Grid have any way of measuring
the CV value of the supply to your house with any accuracy.


michael adams

....

On 05/10/2017 18:59, michael adams wrote:
As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

I understand your comments and I couldnt care less about the few pence,
but if they are going to charge 39.57 on the statement which then on
that same statement I argue that they should quote 39.57 and not 39.3.

I am probably having a personal tantrum over this but I have my own
spreadsheet and each month I enter the gas and elec readings and it
gives me the exact amount the utility company charges (or did
previously) so it gives me a check on their charges plus a bit of
personal satisfaction that my spreadsheet actually works. I now have to
do other manual changes to cope with their inaccurate statements/figures.

Ah the joys of retirement when you have the time to get uptight over the
small things in life.

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 05/10/2017 18:59, michael adams wrote:
As both figures fall within the range given by National Grid of 37.5 MJ/m3 to 43.0
MJ/m3, you simply have no case I'm afraid.

I understand your comments and I couldnt care less about the few pence, but if they are
going to charge 39.57 on the statement which then on that same statement I argue that
they should quote 39.57 and not 39.3.

Reading further down the link it states the following

quote
The amount of energy consumed by a customer is calculated
using the following formula:
The United Kingdom mainland has been subdivided into thirteen
charging areas.
A daily CV average for each charging area is provided by
National Grid to the gas shippers and suppliers, and is calculated
as follows:-

[...]

The daily CV average for the charging area is then calculated
by summing the product of the CV and volume for all the inputs and
dividing by the total volume of gas entering the charging area.


/quote

Basically the CV for your charging area changes daily.
Your bill for say 90 days will be the average of those CV's.

Possibly that's where the two figures come in. One figure was
the CV on a particular day while the other is the average CV over
the whole charging period.

And its on this (higher in this case) average that your charge will
be based.

Given that the CV changes daily -

Say you go on holiday for 2 weeks, then your bill won't be correct
because it includes 14 readings for days when you didn't use any gas.
Similarly if you use a different amount of gas on different days with
a different CV then again the bill won't accurately reflect your use.


I am probably having a personal tantrum over this but I have my own spreadsheet and
each month I enter the gas and elec readings and it gives me the exact amount the
utility company charges (or did previously) so it gives me a check on their charges
plus a bit of personal satisfaction that my spreadsheet actually works. I now have to
do other manual changes to cope with their inaccurate statements/figures.

Possibly the reason the figures don't reconcile is simply because you're not
using the higher (in this case) average CV which covers the whole month ?


Ah the joys of retirement when you have the time to get uptight over the small things
in life.

If you had a sufficiently long supply pipe from the main, and used very little
gas as compared with your neighbours, then quite possibly the CV of your
gas might differ markedly from that of your neighbours. They'd be getting
fresh supplies while yours might have been sitting in your supply pipe
since yesterday.


michael adams

....



as measured by a very accurate instrument fitted to your own and your neighbours
meters could differ markedly.

On 05/10/2017 18:28, ss wrote:
On 05/10/2017 18:08, michael adams wrote:
Along with

"At present the CV of gas is measured at over 110 different locations
in the UK
mainland."

Thanks Michael.Â* The reason being the CV of gas bulb quote on my
statement does not equate to what they charge on my statement.
When questioned they say it was what the rate was on the day my
statement was issued which means I cannot check (accurately) my bill for
that month.

Example: They quote a CV of 39.3 on my statement but then charge me at
39.57.

Previous suppliers had the 2 figures matching. So now I am attempting to
track down a source for the CV figures to compare to what they
state/charge.

So your previous suppliers designed their billing software better.
Presumably your current bill was designed a) by someone who didn't think
about the presentation and b) who didn't understand the natural
variations in the supply anyway.

On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your
bill" stating a CV of 39.3 the actual amount they charge is based on an
average of 39.57CV but they dont tell you that so it looks like they are
overcharging.

Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area
and my figures state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom
of my statement and I get an average of 40.22 CV for the period in question.

So back to Bulb :-) Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour
but their statements are all over the place.

On 06/10/2017 20:17, ss wrote:
On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your
bill" stating a CV of 39.3Â* the actual amount they charge is based on an
average of 39.57CV but they dont tell you that so it looks like they are
overcharging.

Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area
and my figures state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom
of my statement and I get an average of 40.22 CV for the period in
question.

So back to Bulb :-)Â* Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour
but their statements are all over the place.


You are making the mistake of assuming that Bulb Energy is selling gas.
They are not, they are selling contracts on the basis of meter readings.

Much the same way that certain "electricity suppliers" claim that all
their energy is green, even though it isn't, really. It's just that
their green purchase contracts, averaged over time, balance their
"green" sales (and I'm not even sure if Ofcom monitor this).

newshound wrote:

Much the same way that certain "electricity suppliers" claim that all
their energy is green, even though it isn't, really. It's just that
their green purchase contracts, averaged over time, balance their
"green" sales (and I'm not even sure if Ofcom monitor this).

Much the same with "Bio Gas" buses.

https://www.nctx.co.uk/about-us/gasbus/

"Our supplier produces the bio-gas through anaerobic digestion
and injects it into the national gas grid at the nearest point to
production. We draw out an equivalent volume of gas from the
nearest national gas grid point to our Parliament Street Garage,
where it is compressed and stored until the bus is fuelled up
each night."

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

"ss" wrote in message ...
On 06/10/2017 11:06, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:38:04 +0100, ss wrote:

I am in debate with Bulb energy over the calorific values they charge,
it only amounts to a few pence (7p) but as it stands I cannot argue my
case.
Is there a website that gives the calorific values for gas on
daily/weekly or monthly basis by area?


To clarify and as a follow up to all the replies this is the situation:

At the bottom of my statement it states"this is how we calculate your bill" stating a
CV of 39.3 the actual amount they charge is based on an average of 39.57CV but they
dont tell you that so it looks like they are overcharging.

So that one of these figures is what used to be called and maybe
still is a "worked example". In the "old days" the bills were printed
in two stages - the body of the bill including the worked example,
was printed by one process, and the figures and the address etc
were very obviously printed by another process and then merged .
A bit clunky in other words.
However nowadays my bills appear to be printed in one go on what
appear to be inkjets and given modern fast processors there's probably
no reason why they couldn't if they wanted, use the correct figures
and calculate the worked example on the fly before merging that into
the bill. And then at least they'd have at least one more satisfied
customer.


Using links from above posters I checked the CV for the dates and area and my figures
state 39.0 which would be the one they use at the bottom of my statement and I get an
average of 40.22 CV for the period in question.

If you shuffle back and forth along potential start and finish dates for CV
figures for the billing period I think you'll eventually find a range which
produces a figure which matches the figure on your bill


So back to Bulb :-) Its only a few pence and some will be in my favour but their
statements are all over the place.

Basically if you're paying a good i.e cheap price for a staple
commodity such as gas, then unless they're consistently lucky
with their forward buying then the only way they can do this
is cut back on their support operations. The people you contact
may quite possibly be employees of a call centre with no technical
knowledge about billing. Their responses may well be monitored,
as will the time they take to get you off of the phone. It's
not a job you'd really want to wish on anyone - except an
enemy.


michael adams

....

On 08/10/2017 21:03, michael adams wrote:

Basically if you're paying a good i.e cheap price for a staple
commodity such as gas, then unless they're consistently lucky
with their forward buying then the only way they can do this
is cut back on their support operations.


You can be more efficient in your support operations to reduce costs.

One way of doing this is by not supplying confusing bills necessitating
customers to query the amount. In this case it is simply that they
quote one figure and then calculate the bill using another.

The quality of customer support has nothing to do with the price you
pay. Often the more expensive suppliers have the worst customer support.


--
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