I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out, and
requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to fix it but
couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it alone. However,
the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the extent that it was no
longer reasonable to let it go, and the engineer's just been back for
another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when the
central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new boiler"
time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be? And
also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair it
isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious when
I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out, and
requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to fix it but
couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it alone. However,
the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the extent that it was no
longer reasonable to let it go, and the engineer's just been back for
another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when the
central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new boiler"
time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be? And
also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair it
isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious when
I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

When I ran my boiler on a UPS, I discovered that the flame detection
(based on ionised gases changing a leakage path) relied on the Neutral
supply being at or around earth potential. This comes naturally with
mains supply but not with my UPS.

So maybe some sort of earthing fault? obviously you cant short E-N to
test this but I found that a resistor around the 10s of Kohms sorted it out.
Just a thought?
Bob

On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out, and
requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to fix it but
couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it alone. However,
the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the extent that it was no
longer reasonable to let it go, and the engineer's just been back for
another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when the
central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new boiler"
time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be? And
also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair it
isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious when
I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

The second fault would suggest that the diverter valve is to blame.


--
Adam

ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent out.
For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out, and
requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to fix it but
couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it alone. However,
the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the extent that it was no
longer reasonable to let it go, and the engineer's just been back for
another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase
unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when the
central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new boiler"
time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be? And
also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair it
isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always been
very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious when
I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a new
boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

The second fault would suggest that the diverter valve is to blame.


Agreed and absolutely no reason the engineer should suggest a boiler
replacement although it might be long term cost effective for a distant
rental property.

Bob

Bob Minchin grunted in
news
ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent
out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out,
and requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to
fix it but couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it
alone. However, the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the
extent that it was no longer reasonable to let it go, and the
engineer's just been back for another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase
unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when
the central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new
boiler" time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be?
And also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair
it isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always
been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious
when I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a
new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

The second fault would suggest that the diverter valve is to blame.


Agreed and absolutely no reason the engineer should suggest a boiler
replacement although it might be long term cost effective for a
distant rental property.

Thanks guys that's really helpful. I can locate a diverter valve online
for my model of boiler, too, so am prepared for the "sorry, can't get the
parts for those any more" excuse!

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

David

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 21:22:15 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

Mail geoff at cetltd.

Even if it's not he's "done", he probably knows more about faults in old boilers
than anyone else available.

Used to be a regular here, helpful.


Thomas Prufer

Lobster wrote:
Bob Minchin grunted in
news
ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent
out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out,
and requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to
fix it but couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it
alone. However, the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the
extent that it was no longer reasonable to let it go, and the
engineer's just been back for another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase
unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when
the central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new
boiler" time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be?
And also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair
it isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always
been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious
when I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a
new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

The second fault would suggest that the diverter valve is to blame.


Agreed and absolutely no reason the engineer should suggest a boiler
replacement although it might be long term cost effective for a
distant rental property.

Thanks guys that's really helpful. I can locate a diverter valve online
for my model of boiler, too, so am prepared for the "sorry, can't get the
parts for those any more" excuse!

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

David

I feel these are two unrelated faults.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:42:33 +0100, Bob Minchin wrote:

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem
might be?

Did it try to light but then shutdown? Thinking failing thermocouple.
Assuming that it uses a thermocouple for flame detection. I don't
know a lot about modern gas boilers, they might use some form of ion
leakage through the flame?

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or
conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

I feel these are two unrelated faults.

Hum, "ham fisted" engineer knocking/breaking a wire off either
directly involved with the diverter valve or it's associated control
sensors/circuitry.

The bashing about has dislodged a lump of crud which is now jaming
the valve?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/09/2017 10:15, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:42:33 +0100, Bob Minchin wrote:

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem
might be?

Did it try to light but then shutdown? Thinking failing thermocouple.
Assuming that it uses a thermocouple for flame detection. I don't
know a lot about modern gas boilers, they might use some form of ion
leakage through the flame?

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or
conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

I feel these are two unrelated faults.

Hum, "ham fisted" engineer knocking/breaking a wire off either
directly involved with the diverter valve or it's associated control
sensors/circuitry.

The bashing about has dislodged a lump of crud which is now jaming
the valve?


IME you don't even have to be ham-fisted, the very act of looking for a
known fault is quite capable of triggering an independent one!

:-)

On 24/09/2017 22:22, Lobster wrote:
Bob Minchin grunted in
news
ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent
out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting out,
and requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has tried to
fix it but couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to leave it
alone. However, the problem has got steadily more frequent, to the
extent that it was no longer reasonable to let it go, and the
engineer's just been back for another crack at sorting it out.

However, the tenant has told me that following the visit, he wase
unable to
fix the problem; but worse, the hot water will now only heat when
the central heating's on; and the engineer says it looks like "new
boiler" time.

Could anyone advise what the cause of the original problem might be?
And also, what may have occurred to bring about the new issue?

On the one hand, it's quite an old boiler (~15 years?) so to be fair
it isn't overdue for replacement; but on the other hand it's always
been very
reliable, and as it's on a service contract I'm naturally suspicious
when I'm told a repair (ie at their cost) isn't possible, and that a
new boiler
(at my cost) is needed.

Thanks for any thoughts

The second fault would suggest that the diverter valve is to blame.


Agreed and absolutely no reason the engineer should suggest a boiler
replacement although it might be long term cost effective for a
distant rental property.

Thanks guys that's really helpful. I can locate a diverter valve online
for my model of boiler, too, so am prepared for the "sorry, can't get the
parts for those any more" excuse!

I can't think of any reason why a dodgy diverter valve could be
responsible for the original ignition fault though? Or conversely, how
it stopped working during the fault-finding?

David


Could you define your original problem in more detail?

When you said cutting out do you mean that sometimes it did not fire up
in the first instance and went into lockout or that whilst giving heat
or hot water it cut out?

I appreciate that you are getting second hand info from the tenant and
are not there to do the tests yourself.


And have you had a look at

http://www.freeboilermanuals.com/ass...-47-719-08.pdf

pages 18-20?. Yes I know you are paying a service contract but that does
not always mean a lot.

--
Adam

ARW grunted in
news
On 24/09/2017 22:22, Lobster wrote:
Bob Minchin grunted in
news
ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent
out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting
out, and requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has
tried to fix it but couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to
leave it alone. However, the problem has got steadily more
frequent, to the extent that it was no longer reasonable to let it
go, and the engineer's just been back for another crack at sorting
it out.

Could you define your original problem in more detail?

When you said cutting out do you mean that sometimes it did not fire
up in the first instance and went into lockout or that whilst giving
heat or hot water it cut out?

Well things have moved on a bit now in that the the engineer came back and
replaced the switch on the diverter valve, so the 'new' problem (ie HW only
available when CH was on) is now cured, but unsurprisingly the original
problem is indeed still present.

Tenant tells me that once it's up and running, the boiler is fine and won't
cut out; but when it's cold and she turns the hot tap on it often just
doesn't fire up and needs manually resetting. About daily, now.

And have you had a look at

http://www.freeboilermanuals.com/ass...endly-Format-8
0E-Installation-manual-47-719-08.pdf

Thanks, that's really helpful actually... I did already have a PDF manual
but a much less detailed one without that fault-finding flow-chart. That's
suggesting "Gas valve", "Safety thermostat", or fix the "continuity between
the PCB control board and gas valve", depending on the exact symptoms.
Sound about right? Neither of those parts are hugely expensive and I'm
damned sure that if the boiler wasn't on a contract and it was me that had
to pay for them, they'd have been replaced on the first visit.

Will be having words tomorrow...

On 01/10/2017 14:05, Lobster wrote:
ARW grunted in
news
On 24/09/2017 22:22, Lobster wrote:
Bob Minchin grunted in
news
ARW wrote:
On 24/09/2017 15:05, Lobster wrote:
I have a Sime Friendly Format 80E combi boiler in a house I rent
out. For
about a year it's been having an occasional problem of cutting
out, and requiring to be manually reignited. An engineer has
tried to fix it but couldn't find the problem, so it was agreed to
leave it alone. However, the problem has got steadily more
frequent, to the extent that it was no longer reasonable to let it
go, and the engineer's just been back for another crack at sorting
it out.

Could you define your original problem in more detail?

When you said cutting out do you mean that sometimes it did not fire
up in the first instance and went into lockout or that whilst giving
heat or hot water it cut out?

Well things have moved on a bit now in that the the engineer came back and
replaced the switch on the diverter valve, so the 'new' problem (ie HW only
available when CH was on) is now cured, but unsurprisingly the original
problem is indeed still present.

Tenant tells me that once it's up and running, the boiler is fine and won't
cut out; but when it's cold and she turns the hot tap on it often just
doesn't fire up and needs manually resetting. About daily, now.

And have you had a look at

http://www.freeboilermanuals.com/ass...endly-Format-8
0E-Installation-manual-47-719-08.pdf

Thanks, that's really helpful actually... I did already have a PDF manual
but a much less detailed one without that fault-finding flow-chart. That's
suggesting "Gas valve", "Safety thermostat", or fix the "continuity between
the PCB control board and gas valve", depending on the exact symptoms.
Sound about right? Neither of those parts are hugely expensive and I'm
damned sure that if the boiler wasn't on a contract and it was me that had
to pay for them, they'd have been replaced on the first visit.

Will be having words tomorrow...


So it's the ignition sequence that is failing.

You now have all the info I have, so all the best against them. You know
know more than the engineer you pay for.

--
Adam