I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

Scott wrote:

I was amazed to find the hot water came out of the tap instantly,
with no cold water first. Do they use a different plumbing system to
the usual domestic arrangement?
Usually a constantly circulating hot supply, or maybe there's enough
guests running a bath and housekeeping washing towels/crockery to
prevent cold "legs"?

On 31/07/17 22:45, Andy Burns wrote:
Scott wrote:

I was amazed to find the hot water came out of the tap instantly,
with no cold water first. Do they use a different plumbing system to
the usual domestic arrangement?
Usually a constantly circulating hot supply, or maybe there's enough
guests running a bath and housekeeping washing towels/crockery to
prevent cold "legs"?

Dunno for sure, but with very well insulated pipes, there will be enough
use of the HW on a regular basis to keep the pipes hot.

On Monday, 31 July 2017 22:45:28 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
I was amazed to find the hot water came out of the tap instantly,
with no cold water first. Do they use a different plumbing system to
the usual domestic arrangement?
Usually a constantly circulating hot supply

Also often used in hospitals, to prevent any cooling in the pipes which might give rise to legionella.

Owain

Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott


Yes. ;-)

At a guess I would suspect that they have an insulated flow and return
system with a circulator pump to keep the hot pipes primed with hot water.


Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 31/07/2017 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

Its a circulation loop. You have stored hot water, and you pump water
from the top of the store round a circuit that returns to a little lower
in the store. All the taps etc are then teed off the loop. The whole
loop is insulated, a often a timer is employed to run the loop
periodically.

Some of the better domestic systems are also equipped to do it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:57:43 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


Some of the better domestic systems are also equipped to do it.

'S a requirement in Gemrna new builds and refurbishments, if more than X
apartments. Preventing Legionella is one reason.

Also, hot water is billed separately, if there are separate users. Some billing
mechanisms measure the energy of the hot water, i.e. temperature and flow rate,
and are correspondingly expensive. So it's easier to circulate the hot water,
and use a cheap water volume meter, and assume that all taps receive the water
at the same temperature and instantaneously.

And lo, unintended consequences strike: even though this pipework is insulated,
the heat from the hot flow and circulation return can be enough to heat the
usually-nearby cold pipework enough for legionella in the cold supply to be a
problem....


Thomas Prufer

Thomas Prufer posted
'S a requirement in Gemrna new builds and refurbishments, if more than X
apartments. Preventing Legionella is one reason.

Also, hot water is billed separately, if there are separate users. Some billing
mechanisms measure the energy of the hot water, i.e. temperature and flow rate,
and are correspondingly expensive. So it's easier to circulate the hot water,
and use a cheap water volume meter, and assume that all taps receive the water
at the same temperature and instantaneously.

And lo, unintended consequences strike: even though this pipework is insulated,
the heat from the hot flow and circulation return can be enough to heat the
usually-nearby cold pipework enough for legionella in the cold supply to be a
problem....


No case of legionella has ever been reported in a domestic water supply,
whether hot or cold. Clearly the system works well.

--
Jack

On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 08:48:04 +0100, Handsome Jack wrote:


No case of legionella has ever been reported in a domestic water supply,
whether hot or cold. Clearly the system works well.

You're wrong.

i.e.

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Infekt...ublicationFile

or

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8694667

"Risk factors for domestic acquisition of legionnaires disease. Ohio
legionnaires Disease Group."


Thomas Prufer

On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 08:56:15 UTC+1, Handsome Jack wrote:
No case of legionella has ever been reported in a domestic water supply,
whether hot or cold. Clearly the system works well.

Not true.

- Legionella spp. were detected in 33 (22.6%) and Pseudomonas spp. in 56 (38.4%) of 146 samples.
- The reported frequency of pneumonia symptoms was double among persons living in the legionellae-positive homes compared to those living in legionellae-free buildings
- In previous studies in Finland and Germany, the occurrence of legionellae was similar (30% and 26%, respectively) as well as the contaminating concentration
- system and building characteristics were the main predictors for Legionella in domestic hot water. Thus, residing at higher floors of large buildings with many apartments and with older, centralized water heating systems increased the risk for Legionella contamination compared to living in apartments with independent water heater systems and a short distance from the sampling point to the hot water distribution site.
- the prevalence of anti-Legionella antibodies was twice as high in persons in homes with legionellae as in those persons whose homes did not have legionellae The antibodies were most likely the result of asymptomatic infections caused by exposure in their home water supply, as no cases of pneumonia in the exposed population were reported
- Most cases of sporadic legionellosis are not reported to health authorities in Italy as well as in other countries

Legionella Infection Risk from Domestic Hot Water.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/3/02-0707_article


- plumbing systems in private houses that provided hot water from instantaneous water heaters were free of Legionella compared with a prevalence of 12% in houses with storage tanks and recirculating hot water
- More than 50% of all houses using district heating systems were colonized
by Legionella.

Occurrence of Legionella in hot water systems of single-family
residences in suburbs of two German cities with special
reference to solar and district heating
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...blication_list

Owain

wrote:
On Tuesday, 1 August 2017 08:56:15 UTC+1, Handsome Jack wrote:
No case of legionella has ever been reported in a domestic water supply,
whether hot or cold. Clearly the system works well.

Not true.

- Legionella spp. were detected in 33 (22.6%) and Pseudomonas spp. in 56 (38.4%) of 146 samples.
- The reported frequency of pneumonia symptoms was double among persons living in the legionellae-positive homes compared to those living in legionellae-free buildings
- In previous studies in Finland and Germany, the occurrence of legionellae was similar (30% and 26%, respectively) as well as the contaminating concentration
- system and building characteristics were the main predictors for Legionella in domestic hot water. Thus, residing at higher floors of large buildings with many apartments and with older, centralized water heating systems increased the risk for Legionella contamination compared to living in apartments with independent water heater systems and a short distance from the sampling point to the hot water distribution site.
- the prevalence of anti-Legionella antibodies was twice as high in persons in homes with legionellae as in those persons whose homes did not have legionellae The antibodies were most likely the result of asymptomatic infections caused by exposure in their home water supply, as no cases of pneumonia in the exposed population were reported
- Most cases of sporadic legionellosis are not reported to health authorities in Italy as well as in other countries

Legionella Infection Risk from Domestic Hot Water.
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/3/02-0707_article


- plumbing systems in private houses that provided hot water from instantaneous water heaters were free of Legionella compared with a prevalence of 12% in houses with storage tanks and recirculating hot water
- More than 50% of all houses using district heating systems were colonized
by Legionella.

Occurrence of Legionella in hot water systems of single-family
residences in suburbs of two German cities with special
reference to solar and district heating
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...blication_list

Owain



Does using a water softener change the situation?

On 01/08/17 06:54, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:57:43 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:


Some of the better domestic systems are also equipped to do it.

'S a requirement in Gemrna new builds and refurbishments, if more than X
apartments. Preventing Legionella is one reason.

Also, hot water is billed separately, if there are separate users. Some billing
mechanisms measure the energy of the hot water, i.e. temperature and flow rate,
and are correspondingly expensive. So it's easier to circulate the hot water,
and use a cheap water volume meter, and assume that all taps receive the water
at the same temperature and instantaneously.

And lo, unintended consequences strike: even though this pipework is insulated,
the heat from the hot flow and circulation return can be enough to heat the
usually-nearby cold pipework enough for legionella in the cold supply to be a
problem....


I have seen this done in a domestic uk installation. An expensive new
system with circulating HW so that Hot was available instantly anywhere
in the house. Unfortunately the cold tap also produced hot water
instantly anywhere in the house and you had to run half a gallon of hot
away before you could get any cold water.
TW

On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 09:12:53 +0100, TimW wrote:

I have seen this done in a domestic uk installation. An expensive new
system with circulating HW so that Hot was available instantly anywhere
in the house. Unfortunately the cold tap also produced hot water
instantly anywhere in the house and you had to run half a gallon of hot
away before you could get any cold water.

There's a solution in a box, containing magick electronics, doing its ingenious
thing: if one calls for hot water by opening the hot tap briefly, the pipe near
the heater will heat up, and two temp sensors along the pipe note that first
one, then the other get hot. Once this happens, the box fires up the circulation
pump until the return is hot. One waits a bit and gets "instantaneous" hot
water. Advantages are that the pump isn't running al the time, as this costs
electricity and increases heat loss and heats the cold pipes. No wires, no
plumbing, just unplug the pump from its timer and plug into box.

Works fine if one wants a hot shower, and hits the hot water for a second,
brushes teeth with cold, then showers. No good if you want hot water
immediately... (It's a kludge, fixing a problem which one shouldn't have in the
first place, but I like it anyway. Nice hack.)



Thomas Prufer

In article ,
TimW wrote:
I have seen this done in a domestic uk installation. An expensive new
system with circulating HW so that Hot was available instantly anywhere
in the house. Unfortunately the cold tap also produced hot water
instantly anywhere in the house and you had to run half a gallon of hot
away before you could get any cold water.

Interested why you'd want cold water anywhere in the house? Except for
drinking?

Obviously any cold pipes in the house will attain ambient temperature. But
it would make sense to keep them clear of central heating etc pipes.

--
*If one synchronized swimmer drowns, do the rest have to drown too?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
TimW wrote:
I have seen this done in a domestic uk installation. An expensive new
system with circulating HW so that Hot was available instantly anywhere
in the house. Unfortunately the cold tap also produced hot water
instantly anywhere in the house and you had to run half a gallon of hot
away before you could get any cold water.

Interested why you'd want cold water anywhere in the house? Except for
drinking?

I imagine that's what he was referring to. Nowadays we expect all cold taps
to be drinking water and to come from the rising main, and for that water to
be cold. When I was a child, it was common for houses to have most of the
cold water from the hot water header tank, so you hade to traipse downstairs
in the night if you wanted a drink of water.

Do the building regs still allow *new-build* houses to have header tanks for
hot and cold water, or are they now required to have hot and cold on the
rising main, with the hot water either being heated on demand (combi boiler)
or else supplying the hot water cylinder at mains pressure. In other words,
do any newly-built houses have 22 mm piping to increase the flow rate from a
tank in the loft, in an attempt (usually a poor attempt!) to match the flow
rate of hot and cold taps.

My first house, built in the early 80s, had a tank that was built onto the
top of the hot water cylinder, not even on in the loft, so there was very
little head of water (probably about 2 or 3 feet) to feed the bath. If I'd
wanted a shower, I'd have had to use an electric one, because the shower
head would have been above the water in the tank!

It was great when I moved house to have mains-fed hot water from the
cylinder, and our present house has a combi boiler so there isn't even the
problem of the cylinder running cold - we have hot water for as long as we
like.

Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

I once stopped over in a Ibis, could have been Dartford.......... not sure.
******** is Dartford as is all of the south.
There was no cold water from the taps in my room! Only hot.
The receptionist more or less told me that I was making it up until I told
her to go take a look. Them I got the apology and a leg over if I wanted it.
I accepted the apology, but declined the leg over with a southerner.
Northerners have standards.

Scott submitted this idea :
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

Usually a ring or loop of pipe, where the loop passes many / most of
the outlets, the hot water is constantly circulated by a pump around
the loop. This system is not common in the home, because it is wasteful
of heat, unless a lot of hot water is needed regularly, but it is less
wasteful of water.

On 31/07/17 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

This can be achieved by circulating hot water past the tap.
The downside is heat loss from the DGHW circuit when idle.

In a hotel where probably heating is on most of the year, this may not
be an issue.


--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people
by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason they are
poor.

Peter Thompson

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 31/07/17 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

This can be achieved by circulating hot water past the tap.
The downside is heat loss from the DGHW circuit when idle.

In a hotel where probably heating is on most of the year, this may not be
an issue.


I can't quite work out whether you are trying to suggest that it is normal
for hotels to have heating on most of the year in all climates.

or were just restricting your comment to those places where "everybody" has
their heating on most of the year

IME most of the UK does not come into that latter category (the northernmost
PI would seem to be Edinburg/Glasgow)

In article , tim...
wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 31/07/17 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

This can be achieved by circulating hot water past the tap. The
downside is heat loss from the DGHW circuit when idle.

In a hotel where probably heating is on most of the year, this may not
be an issue.


I can't quite work out whether you are trying to suggest that it is
normal for hotels to have heating on most of the year in all climates.

or were just restricting your comment to those places where "everybody"
has their heating on most of the year

IME most of the UK does not come into that latter category (the
northernmost PI would seem to be Edinburg/Glasgow)


°
Last autumn I was involved in running an exhibition in London hotel's
conference facilities. I had the greatest of difficulty in persuading the
porter that we did not want the thermostats set to 24° .

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 01/08/17 13:13, Huge wrote:

Generally speaking, the first the we do on arrival in a hotel room is
switch the heating off.



And the aircon on as the windows don't often open!

Tim Watts wrote:

Huge wrote:

the first the we do on arrival in a hotel room is
switch the heating off.

And the aircon on as the windows don't often open!

And stuff a sacrificial ISO7810 sized gift-card in the central "off" switch?

In article ,
Huge wrote:
Last autumn I was involved in running an exhibition in London hotel's
conference facilities. I had the greatest of difficulty in persuading the
porter that we did not want the thermostats set to 24° .

Generally speaking, the first the we do on arrival in a hotel room is
switch the heating off.

Last time I used an hotel was oop North. A Premier Inn. In the winter, and
not cheap giving the last minute booking. Building was near new - the
gardens still being finished. The reception and hallways etc were fine -
the actual room freezing. And the only heat an air-con unit which could
also heat. Which didn't reach the bathroom. Add to that the usual 5 watt
maximum lights and it was anything but Premier.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/08/17 12:01, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 31/07/17 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

This can be achieved by circulating hot water past the tap.
The downside is heat loss from the DGHW circuit when idle.

In a hotel where probably heating is on most of the year, this may not
be an issue.


I can't quite work out whether you are trying to suggest that it is
normal for hotels to have heating on most of the year in all climates.

Where on earth is 'all climates' mentioned?

Premier inn are a UK only siubsidiary of Whitbread

And its normal to run hotel heating in the UK all year round.

If only for towel rails.



or were just restricting your comment to those places where "everybody"
has their heating on most of the year

IME most of the UK does not come into that latter category (the
northernmost PI would seem to be Edinburg/Glasgow)





--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/08/17 12:01, tim... wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 31/07/17 22:36, Scott wrote:
I stayed in a Premier Inn at the weekend and I was amazed to find the
hot water came out of the tap instantly, with no cold water first. Do
they use a different plumbing system to the usual domestic
arrangement? Scott

This can be achieved by circulating hot water past the tap.
The downside is heat loss from the DGHW circuit when idle.

In a hotel where probably heating is on most of the year, this may not
be an issue.


I can't quite work out whether you are trying to suggest that it is
normal for hotels to have heating on most of the year in all climates.

Where on earth is 'all climates' mentioned?

Premier inn are a UK only siubsidiary of Whitbread

And its normal to run hotel heating in the UK all year round.

If only for towel rails.


quite a lot I've stayed in have electrically heated towel rails,


or were just restricting your comment to those places where "everybody"
has their heating on most of the year

IME most of the UK does not come into that latter category (the
northernmost PI would seem to be Edinburg/Glasgow)




--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

People are stupid with
theromostats.

In a park's Public toilets I went into (legitimate reasons) - it had 2
thermostats - neither had stops to prevent them being set to silly
settings.
Clearly there to prevent freezing - using electric heaters. One was on
highest - one on the lowest. Probobly every kid that comes in twiddes with
them.

Also they were fitted above the heaters