Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

cheers.

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:31:02 -0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote:

Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

Not for the welding but if you really mean that there is 15mm sticking
out then that should be enough to get some decent self locking pliers
on ('Mole grips') after giving the thread a good soaking of Plus Gas.

If you can't get the toothed / gripping part of the grips to hold,
then grinding a pair of flats on it often helps (along with more Plus
Gas / time etc).

If you have welded on the end then you may have already 'warmed it up'
(another trick).

Giving the end of the bolt some short sharp shocks with a small hammer
may also help (depending on what it's screwing into).

Assuming you have the time, it's rare for me not to get such a stud
out, even if it means drilling it out and using a stud extractor
(along with more Plus Gas / impact / heat etc).

Cheers, T i m

"Chris" wrote in message news
Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

cheers.

Two M8 lock nuts spannered tight together on the shank having been
liberally dosed with red threadlock beforehand. And then unscrew the
bottom one ?

If you already had an appropriately sized, but substantial spanner, you
could try filing flats on either side of the shank.

michael adams

....

On 7/9/2017 9:51 PM, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:31:02 -0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote:

Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

Not for the welding but if you really mean that there is 15mm sticking
out then that should be enough to get some decent self locking pliers
on ('Mole grips') after giving the thread a good soaking of Plus Gas.

+1.


If you can't get the toothed / gripping part of the grips to hold,
then grinding a pair of flats on it often helps (along with more Plus
Gas / time etc).

+1

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate. If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success. You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws. If you
have to work right at the tip of the mole wrench jaws (where they are
flat) that is where you need the flats on the stud. Sometimes you can
get enough of a grip with a mini-mole which has grooves right up to the
tip of the jaws.

As Tim says, penetrating oil and heat may help.

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

If you
have to work right at the tip of the mole wrench jaws (where they are
flat) that is where you need the flats on the stud.

And will have better chance with good quality grips (that can stay
parallel when maybe only 50% of the width of the jaw is being used).

Sometimes you can
get enough of a grip with a mini-mole which has grooves right up to the
tip of the jaws.

I have a pair of those as the earth clamp on my MIG welder. ;-)

As Tim says, penetrating oil and heat may help.

I work on the basis that it can't hurt ... but does sometimes need to
be left on a while (and possibly re-applied a few times) and as you
say, used with heat.

Another thought is that sometimes people forget to do things back up
again a bit, especially when say the rusty end of a bolt has fouled as
it's been unscrewed from an enclosed section (like chassis member or
sill g) and often, sheared the head off before coming free. Before
it gets too tight I might first work the bolt back and forth to get
some Plus Gas down the thread and even follow that up with some WD40,
light oil or even some spray grease.

It has sometimes taken a few days persistence (depending on the
timescale's / importance / alternative solutions etc) but I usually
get there in the end. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 09/07/2017 22:27, michael adams wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message news
Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

cheers.

Two M8 lock nuts spannered tight together on the shank having been
liberally dosed with red threadlock beforehand. And then unscrew the
bottom one ?

If you already had an appropriately sized, but substantial spanner, you
could try filing flats on either side of the shank.

If the thread was exposed and undamaged I would recommend this as being
the easiest and most effective way applying a torque to what is now a stud.

I am rarely successful with mole-grips, or with just two flats to take
an open spanner. I have been successful grinding or filing 6 flats that
can take a hammered on socket or a ring.

Sometimes it is worth tightening before loosening.

On 10/07/2017 00:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

Except I have found that the splines don't have much depth, and are
'rolled' off when applying any pressure with the mole-grips.

For loose threads, or ones not to tight, moles can be very effective.

However in this case the OP has suggested he has an M8 thread. The best
thing is to make use of this with a nut and a second lock nut. Another
poster recommended threadlock too. Then unwind the inner nut.

"Fredxxx" wrote in message news
On 09/07/2017 22:27, michael adams wrote:
"Chris" wrote in message news
Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

cheers.

Two M8 lock nuts spannered tight together on the shank having been
liberally dosed with red threadlock beforehand. And then unscrew the
bottom one ?

If you already had an appropriately sized, but substantial spanner, you
could try filing flats on either side of the shank.

If the thread was exposed and undamaged I would recommend this as being the easiest and
most effective way applying a torque to what is now a stud.

If money was no object then an M8 left handed die might do it
whatever the state of the thread.


michael adams

....

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:12:23 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 10/07/2017 00:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

Except I have found that the splines don't have much depth, and are
'rolled' off when applying any pressure with the mole-grips.

Then you might not be using the right grips, not good quality grips or
doing them up tightly enough. ;-)

From my POV, if you get that right, you will shear the stud of before
the grips slip. ;-)

For loose threads, or ones not to tight, moles can be very effective.

And I've found then good for shifting (initially) tight / seized
studs. YMMV etc.

However in this case the OP has suggested he has an M8 thread. The best
thing is to make use of this with a nut and a second lock nut.

Whilst you might get enough of two M8 nuts on the remaining thread for
that to work, you are relying on the frictional force you can generate
between the nuts and the shaft and if the force was sufficient to
shear the head off the bolt in the first place ... ?

Another
poster recommended threadlock too. Then unwind the inner nut.

Unless a permanent thread lock (or liquid metal epoxy etc) I'm still
not sure you would sufficient holding force top move the stud before
the tension in the shaft created by the nuts forcing against each
other sheared the stud off again? Don't get me wrong, I have used that
method (many times) to remove a straight stud that had been sheared
off by an over tightened nut (cylinder head / exhaust manifold stud)
or a machine screw with a mullered head but in theory, 'just turning
it' (by grip) would be better than introducing extra forces in the
stud unnecessarily?

'Just' bonding or welding a nut on the end is ok because it isn't
setting up any additional forces in the thread.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:06:56 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

snip

I am rarely successful with mole-grips, or with just two flats to take
an open spanner.

I don't think I'd even try to use a spanner like that on the remains
of a bolt where the head had been sheared off by un tightening?

I have been successful grinding or filing 6 flats that
can take a hammered on socket or a ring.

But isn't that reducing the CSA of the (seized?) stud even further?
When you distort the stud by crushing the 'rounded jaw / teeth' bit of
some decent Mole grips onto the stud, you aren't actually reducing the
CSA at all (just ovalising the stud a bit)?

Sometimes it is worth tightening before loosening.

Agreed. ;-)

It's funny, much of this is 'feel' derived by experience (inc making
mistakes of course) and practice. Like, I rarely turn a nut or bolt
the wrong way, no matter which hand I'm using (I'm right handed) or my
orientation (unlike the Mrs who often asks me which way to turn a
new_to_her tap on? shrug).

I guess having to get a washer and nut on the end of a bolt up inside
somewhere where you can't see or can hardly reach, even by fingertip
means you have to get it right pretty quickly or you will be there all
day (or until you run out of nuts and washers). ;-)

Because of my patience, experience and reasonable range of tools, I
seem to be the one others bring such things to when they give up. ;-)

The only time I have had to ask for help from others is when they have
some specialist tools (threaded flywheel pullers etc) or more powerful
tools than I. Once such example was when I was trying to remove a
locknut from the end of a motor armature and the only way of doing so
was with an rattle gun (as you couldn't hold the armature or output
without damaging either). My cheapo gun and small compressor was no
match for mates 3 phase compressor and Snap-On gun (that had the nut
off on the first try ... maybe mine had already loosened it). ;-)


Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:26:50 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


If money was no object then an M8 left handed die might do it
whatever the state of the thread.

I was waiting for mention of the 'left hand drill bit' but a left
handed die comprehensively trumps that in every way. A piece of
cheddar cheese and a cream cracker would be more effective.

Proper penetrating fluid i.e not **** like WD40
Heat
Dwell time
Repeat

Learn to weld upside down or move the object so it's less 'overhead'

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:26:50 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


If money was no object then an M8 left handed die might do it
whatever the state of the thread.

I was waiting for mention of the 'left hand drill bit' but a left
handed die comprehensively trumps that in every way.

Hardly. A drill bit bores the same size hole whichever direction
it rotates. And so unless someone was stuck with a drill
which only rotates anti clockwise a left handed drill
would be pointless.

A left handed die would be better as it would cut a thread
across the existing threads whatever their pitch.
Wherears if there was a slight difference in the pitch
then using a right handed die would shave the threads.
Onto which a left handed M8 nut can then be threaded.


A piece of
cheddar cheese and a cream cracker would be more effective.

Proper penetrating fluid i.e not **** like WD40

Applied overhead. And as you clearly can't rely on gravity
a big tray underneath to catch the 80% which will fall straight
to the floor. Which you can then try to reapply with a brush
given as you can't get it back in the tin, taking extra care
that it doesntsimply run down the brush, inside your shirt
or overalls and down your arm.

Yup. No problems there as far as I can see.

Heat
Dwell time
Repeat

Learn to weld upside down or move the object so it's less 'overhead'

i.e roll the car over taking care not to dent the roof while doing so.



michael adams

....

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:46:59 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
snip

Proper penetrating fluid i.e not **** like WD40

Applied overhead. And as you clearly can't rely on gravity
a big tray underneath to catch the 80% which will fall straight
to the floor. Which you can then try to reapply with a brush
given as you can't get it back in the tin, taking extra care
that it doesntsimply run down the brush, inside your shirt
or overalls and down your arm.

Whilst I agree very much with the 'proper penetrating fluid', you can
apply it 'intelligently so that it actually / only goes where it's
needed and sparingly.

I've seen people over-applying such with (as you say), 'most' of it
going elsewhere so again, it needs a little bit of common sense /
logic / understanding to apply it where it's required and the best way
possible.

So, if the screw is vertical and you can only gain access from
underneath you would probably be better off using a spray but even
then you could spray it in a very controlled way where you nearly /
only 'wet' the boundary between the screw and it's hole and let
capillary action take it where it's required.

If the screw is more accessible then I will generally apply (again,
using Plus Gas) from the long nozzle liquid can, again, only applying
that that will stay around the screw, not all run onto the ground /
bench.

For the worse cases I've even made up a small dam using Blue Tack or
Plasticine and again, just put enough in to ensure the entire thread /
hole interface stays wetted (topping up over time if required).

I think the mentality for this sort of job is assuming that you *will*
get the thing out, as long as you repeat all the available steps and
never push it too far (and make matters worse) over as long as it
takes.

snip

Learn to weld upside down or move the object so it's less 'overhead'

i.e roll the car over taking care not to dent the roof while doing so.


Yup ... and with the proper frame you won't dent the roof. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
news
Heat

That much I do agree with and the hotter the better,
assuming at least that there's a difference in the
rate of expanion/contraction between the two
metals.


Dwell time
Repeat

Learn to weld upside down

He's already tried that. But unlike you with your
low viscosity yet gravity defying penetrating fluid
he's been unable to source any filler rods which are
gravity defying in their molten state.

michael adams

....

On 7/10/2017 12:05 AM, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

If you
have to work right at the tip of the mole wrench jaws (where they are
flat) that is where you need the flats on the stud.

And will have better chance with good quality grips (that can stay
parallel when maybe only 50% of the width of the jaw is being used).

Sometimes you can
get enough of a grip with a mini-mole which has grooves right up to the
tip of the jaws.

I have a pair of those as the earth clamp on my MIG welder. ;-)

Now that's a good tip which I have never seen before.


As Tim says, penetrating oil and heat may help.

I work on the basis that it can't hurt ... but does sometimes need to
be left on a while (and possibly re-applied a few times) and as you
say, used with heat.

Another thought is that sometimes people forget to do things back up
again a bit, especially when say the rusty end of a bolt has fouled as
it's been unscrewed from an enclosed section (like chassis member or
sill g) and often, sheared the head off before coming free. Before
it gets too tight I might first work the bolt back and forth to get
some Plus Gas down the thread and even follow that up with some WD40,
light oil or even some spray grease.

Also, if it is a long bolt going through (say) a nut welded on the back
of a chassis member, then it could be rust on the concealed protruding
bit that caused the head to shear. Another good reason to try winding
inwards.


It has sometimes taken a few days persistence (depending on the
timescale's / importance / alternative solutions etc) but I usually
get there in the end. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 7/10/2017 1:06 AM, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:06:56 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

snip

I am rarely successful with mole-grips, or with just two flats to take
an open spanner.

I don't think I'd even try to use a spanner like that on the remains
of a bolt where the head had been sheared off by un tightening?

I have been successful grinding or filing 6 flats that
can take a hammered on socket or a ring.

But isn't that reducing the CSA of the (seized?) stud even further?
When you distort the stud by crushing the 'rounded jaw / teeth' bit of
some decent Mole grips onto the stud, you aren't actually reducing the
CSA at all (just ovalising the stud a bit)?

Sometimes it is worth tightening before loosening.

Agreed. ;-)

It's funny, much of this is 'feel' derived by experience (inc making
mistakes of course) and practice. Like, I rarely turn a nut or bolt
the wrong way, no matter which hand I'm using (I'm right handed) or my
orientation (unlike the Mrs who often asks me which way to turn a
new_to_her tap on? shrug).

Feel is everything!

I guess having to get a washer and nut on the end of a bolt up inside
somewhere where you can't see or can hardly reach, even by fingertip
means you have to get it right pretty quickly or you will be there all
day (or until you run out of nuts and washers). ;-)

Because of my patience, experience and reasonable range of tools, I
seem to be the one others bring such things to when they give up. ;-)

My neighbour used to call me Mr Fixit :-)


The only time I have had to ask for help from others is when they have
some specialist tools (threaded flywheel pullers etc) or more powerful
tools than I. Once such example was when I was trying to remove a
locknut from the end of a motor armature and the only way of doing so
was with an rattle gun (as you couldn't hold the armature or output
without damaging either). My cheapo gun and small compressor was no
match for mates 3 phase compressor and Snap-On gun (that had the nut
off on the first try ... maybe mine had already loosened it). ;-)


Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 20:31:02 +0000, Chris wrote:

[...]

One thing that hasn't been suggested yet and might be worth a try - if
all the remaining shank is threaded - is to cut a slot in the end with a
hacksaw and wind the thing back *in all the way* with a flat blade
screwdriver until it topples back into the void within the chassis
member. This might be the best way, cos you can easily clean the exposed
thread up with a wire brush and lube it first, so it's highly unlikely to
get stuck whilst going back in.


--
This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

On 7/10/2017 10:51 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 20:31:02 +0000, Chris wrote:

[...]

One thing that hasn't been suggested yet and might be worth a try - if
all the remaining shank is threaded - is to cut a slot in the end with a
hacksaw and wind the thing back *in all the way* with a flat blade
screwdriver until it topples back into the void within the chassis
member. This might be the best way, cos you can easily clean the exposed
thread up with a wire brush and lube it first, so it's highly unlikely to
get stuck whilst going back in.


Good point. Or slitting disk on a dremel if no access for hacksaw.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:20:12 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

Because of my patience, experience and reasonable range of tools, I
seem to be the one others bring such things to when they give up. ;-)

My neighbour used to call me Mr Fixit :-)

The funny thing is, I bet you also consider what you can do to be
'perfectly normal' and can't understand why everyone else isn't the
same?

I was talking to the Mrs on the walk back from the Doctors earlier
about the instance I read / heard somewhere where someone stopped to
help a female driver who looked like she was having trouble with one
of the wheels. It turned out one of the tyres had exploded and the guy
noticed that the other three were highly inflated. He asked her if she
had recently inflated them and she said yes. To what pressure he
asked, ... 'till they were full' she replied ... ;-(

My point is I am sure there are many many people out there moving
amongst us who really have no idea about things as simple as that and
I'm not sure they should be allowed to be (driving, not existing
particularly). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:46:59 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 00:26:50 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


If money was no object then an M8 left handed die might do it
whatever the state of the thread.

I was waiting for mention of the 'left hand drill bit' but a left
handed die comprehensively trumps that in every way.

Hardly. A drill bit bores the same size hole whichever direction
it rotates. And so unless someone was stuck with a drill
which only rotates anti clockwise a left handed drill
would be pointless.

Whoosh

A left handed die would be better as it would cut a thread
across the existing threads whatever their pitch.
Wherears if there was a slight difference in the pitch
then using a right handed die would shave the threads.
Onto which a left handed M8 nut can then be threaded.

Like I said, A piece of cheddar cheese and a cream cracker would be more
effective.

i.e roll the car over taking care not to dent the roof while doing so.

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

--

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:14:33 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
news
Heat

That much I do agree with and the hotter the better,
assuming at least that there's a difference in the
rate of expanion/contraction between the two
metals.

The hotter the better is patently incorrect, at about 1500 deg C you cease to
have a sheared off bolt and a threaded hole and removal gets a lot harder.

Dwell time
Repeat

Learn to weld upside down

He's already tried that. But unlike you with your
low viscosity yet gravity defying penetrating fluid

Use an aerosol, it only needs a few ml of fluid drawn in via capilliary action

he's been unable to source any filler rods which are
gravity defying in their molten state.


Unless you are gas or TIG welding there are no filler rods, that leaves stick
and MIG welding as suitable options where overhead welding is not only possible
but quite easy in comparison. You would not be looking for welding to meet ISO
9606, something just above above chicken **** standard is sufficient for a job
like this.

With 15mm of exposed thread welding the nut on 'from the side' by lifting the
vehicle such that it is significantly higher on that side could turn overhead
welding into something more of a vertical weld which is really a piece of ****
to do.


P.S.
Has anyone ever called you Osmium?


--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.


michael adams

....

On 10/07/2017 00:12, Fredxxx wrote:
On 10/07/2017 00:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

Except I have found that the splines don't have much depth, and are
'rolled' off when applying any pressure with the mole-grips.

For loose threads, or ones not to tight, moles can be very effective.

However in this case the OP has suggested he has an M8 thread. The best
thing is to make use of this with a nut and a second lock nut. Another
poster recommended threadlock too. Then unwind the inner nut.

I have managed to move things like this before with a small Stillson
wrench due to its self-tightening action. Access can be a problem though.

SteveW

On 10/07/2017 10:10, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 09:46:59 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
snip

Proper penetrating fluid i.e not **** like WD40

Applied overhead. And as you clearly can't rely on gravity
a big tray underneath to catch the 80% which will fall straight
to the floor. Which you can then try to reapply with a brush
given as you can't get it back in the tin, taking extra care
that it doesntsimply run down the brush, inside your shirt
or overalls and down your arm.

Whilst I agree very much with the 'proper penetrating fluid', you can
apply it 'intelligently so that it actually / only goes where it's
needed and sparingly.

I've seen people over-applying such with (as you say), 'most' of it
going elsewhere so again, it needs a little bit of common sense /
logic / understanding to apply it where it's required and the best way
possible.

So, if the screw is vertical and you can only gain access from
underneath you would probably be better off using a spray but even
then you could spray it in a very controlled way where you nearly /
only 'wet' the boundary between the screw and it's hole and let
capillary action take it where it's required.

If the screw is more accessible then I will generally apply (again,
using Plus Gas) from the long nozzle liquid can, again, only applying
that that will stay around the screw, not all run onto the ground /
bench.

For the worse cases I've even made up a small dam using Blue Tack or
Plasticine and again, just put enough in to ensure the entire thread /
hole interface stays wetted (topping up over time if required).

I think the mentality for this sort of job is assuming that you *will*
get the thing out, as long as you repeat all the available steps and
never push it too far (and make matters worse) over as long as it
takes.

snip

Learn to weld upside down or move the object so it's less 'overhead'

i.e roll the car over taking care not to dent the roof while doing so.


Yup ... and with the proper frame you won't dent the roof. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Rally style - roll it onto its side on a load of spare tyres.

SteveW

On 7/10/2017 9:38 PM, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/07/2017 00:12, Fredxxx wrote:
On 10/07/2017 00:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

Except I have found that the splines don't have much depth, and are
'rolled' off when applying any pressure with the mole-grips.

For loose threads, or ones not to tight, moles can be very effective.

However in this case the OP has suggested he has an M8 thread. The
best thing is to make use of this with a nut and a second lock nut.
Another poster recommended threadlock too. Then unwind the inner nut.

I have managed to move things like this before with a small Stillson
wrench due to its self-tightening action. Access can be a problem though.

SteveW

Pretty small if it worked on M8!

No I agree really, but you do need something more or less as long as the
jaws are wide. Chain wrenches also work by the same mechanism.

For nuts which are completely rounded off, you can sometimes move them
with a suitable chisel. You need something a bit like a centre punch,
but with a tapering shank of square section, and then instead of being
ground to a conical point like a centre punch, ground with a flat, but
angled along a diagonal. So that the tip "digs in" when the chisel is
hammered at about 50 degrees to the surface. And you need to hammer
tangentially in the direction which undoes the nut.

"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
..

For nuts which are completely rounded off, you can sometimes move them with a suitable
chisel. You need something a bit like a centre punch, but with a tapering shank of
square section, and then instead of being ground to a conical point like a centre
punch, ground with a flat, but angled along a diagonal. So that the tip "digs in" when
the chisel is hammered at about 50 degrees to the surface. And you need to hammer
tangentially in the direction which undoes the nut.

Sorry maybe I've misunderstood. But what's wrong with using nut splitters?

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p80...1AIVz 6ntCh3c



michael adams

....

On 10/07/2017 21:54, newshound wrote:
On 7/10/2017 9:38 PM, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/07/2017 00:12, Fredxxx wrote:
On 10/07/2017 00:05, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:57:37 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

I have several different mole wrenches and try to find the one most
appropriate.

Same here.

If you have room to grip with the rounded cutaway part of
the grips, this probably gives you the best chance of success.

And why you need 'a small selection' of such things.

You need
to do the grips up as tightly as you possibly can, this will deform
the
stud giving it "splines" which match the grooves in the jaws.

Good explanation of the process. You get to know what feels likely to
be a 'very good' chance of either undoing the stud or shearing it off,
that's how tight they should be.

Except I have found that the splines don't have much depth, and are
'rolled' off when applying any pressure with the mole-grips.

For loose threads, or ones not to tight, moles can be very effective.

However in this case the OP has suggested he has an M8 thread. The
best thing is to make use of this with a nut and a second lock nut.
Another poster recommended threadlock too. Then unwind the inner nut.

I have managed to move things like this before with a small Stillson
wrench due to its self-tightening action. Access can be a problem though.

SteveW

Pretty small if it worked on M8!

Yup, the one I've got would just about go down to that. I have
definitely used it on damaged exhaust stud on a 1970s motorbike and I'm
pretty sure that was around that size.

SteveW

On 7/10/2017 10:06 PM, michael adams wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
.

For nuts which are completely rounded off, you can sometimes move them with a suitable
chisel. You need something a bit like a centre punch, but with a tapering shank of
square section, and then instead of being ground to a conical point like a centre
punch, ground with a flat, but angled along a diagonal. So that the tip "digs in" when
the chisel is hammered at about 50 degrees to the surface. And you need to hammer
tangentially in the direction which undoes the nut.

Sorry maybe I've misunderstood. But what's wrong with using nut splitters?

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/p80...1AIVz 6ntCh3c



michael adams

...


Fine if there is room to use them. Each one only covers a limited range
of sizes though. It is one tool that I have never felt the need to buy.

Another good method is to cut along a sector just missing the threads
using a slitting disk on a Dremel or clone. Then use a chisel to break
the remaining metal by putting it in tension.

On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 6:51:11 AM UTC+10, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:31:02 -0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote:

Hi,

What's the best bet for getting a headless bolt out? The one I need to
deal with is situated under the n/s rear jacking point of my car at the
end of the sill that side. There's about 15mm of its shank left behind
sticking out but it's not much to get a grip on (M8 thread by the looks
of it). I've tried welding a nut to the end of it but welding upside down
is clearly not a skill I've mastered as all the molten filler rod ends up
on the deck due to gravity.
Any tips or suggestions?

Not for the welding but if you really mean that there is 15mm sticking
out then that should be enough to get some decent self locking pliers
on ('Mole grips') after giving the thread a good soaking of Plus Gas.

If you can't get the toothed / gripping part of the grips to hold,
then grinding a pair of flats on it often helps (along with more Plus
Gas / time etc).

If you have welded on the end then you may have already 'warmed it up'
(another trick).

Giving the end of the bolt some short sharp shocks with a small hammer
may also help (depending on what it's screwing into).

Assuming you have the time, it's rare for me not to get such a stud
out, even if it means drilling it out and using a stud extractor
(along with more Plus Gas / impact / heat etc).

Cheers, T i m

"Not for the welding but if you really mean that there is 15mm sticking
out then that should be enough to get some decent self locking pliers
on ('Mole grips') after giving the thread a good soaking of Plus Gas."
Also smacking hard with a mallet a few times will help loosen any hard set rust

On 10/07/17 19:42, The Other Mike wrote:
Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

The one that wouldnt take you?


--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:31:36 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
.. .

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.

It's you that were so retarded you posted two discrete responses to my initial
single post.

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of ********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt head????? Even
Dr Drivel/IMM would not have come up with such a clueless idea.

--

On 11/07/17 11:10, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:31:36 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.

It's you that were so retarded you posted two discrete responses to my initial
single post.

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of ********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt head????? Even
Dr Drivel/IMM would not have come up with such a clueless idea.

espceially since 'stud exctractors' are left hand TAPS....

Has anyone actually mentioned the tool designed for this job, yet?


--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On 11/07/2017 11:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/17 11:10, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:31:36 +0100, "michael adams"

wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.

It's you that were so retarded you posted two discrete responses to my
initial
single post.

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of
********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt
head????? Even
Dr Drivel/IMM would not have come up with such a clueless idea.

espceially since 'stud exctractors' are left hand TAPS....

Has anyone actually mentioned the tool designed for this job, yet?



I had great sucess with devices similar to this

http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-bo...M8GwodLYYF Nw

to remove a broken locking wheel nut recently (which approximates to the
OPs problem.



--
Chris B (News)

On 11/07/17 12:06, Chris B wrote:
On 11/07/2017 11:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/17 11:10, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:31:36 +0100, "michael adams"

wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.

It's you that were so retarded you posted two discrete responses to
my initial
single post.

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of
********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt
head????? Even
Dr Drivel/IMM would not have come up with such a clueless idea.

espceially since 'stud exctractors' are left hand TAPS....

Has anyone actually mentioned the tool designed for this job, yet?



I had great sucess with devices similar to this

http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-bo...M8GwodLYYF Nw


to remove a broken locking wheel nut recently (which approximates to the
OPs problem.



I meant these

http://www.screwfix.com/p/screw-extr...iece-set/18643

£4.19 and all you need is a drill to get them started and a spanner on
the squared off shaft



--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of ********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt head?????

Why would anyone need to "extract" a "broken off" bolt head ?

If it's already "broken off", then presumably it fell to the floor
and ended up in the bin.

Which word or words in the two word phrase "broken off" are you
having the biggest difficulty in understanding, Mike ?

Tell you what Mike, if you're still having trouble understanding
any of this, why not show this post to somebody else ?


michael adams

....

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 9:51:11 PM UTC+1, T i m wrote:


it is probably obvious to everyone but I'll say it anyway: once the plus gas is applied and the moles are gripped then try to wiggle the bolt alternately clock and anticlockwiwse to help to free it. Don't just try to unscrew it.

Robert

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:41:11 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

i.e roll the car over taking care not to dent the roof while doing so.


Yup ... and with the proper frame you won't dent the roof. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Rally style - roll it onto its side on a load of spare tyres.

That could also be 'Eastern European / Indian / African style from
what I've seen on Youtube and the TV. ;-)

I think I've even seen then rolled on it's side into a slight ditch?

My mate had and successfully used one of the rollover frames when he
was restoring his 3L Capri. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 12:18:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip

I had great sucess with devices similar to this

http://www.screwfix.com/p/erbauer-bo...M8GwodLYYF Nw


to remove a broken locking wheel nut recently (which approximates to the
OPs problem.



I meant these

http://www.screwfix.com/p/screw-extr...iece-set/18643

£4.19 and all you need is a drill to get them started and a spanner on
the squared off shaft

As you stumble round trying to help ... why would you (even try to
use) use a stud extractor, designed for when a stud or bolt has
sheared off below (or so close to noting else will grip), when you can
still get hold of (what has become) the stud?

Cheers, T i m

On 11/07/17 13:01, michael adams wrote:
"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of ********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt head?????

Why would anyone need to "extract" a "broken off" bolt head ?

If it's already "broken off", then presumably it fell to the floor
and ended up in the bin.

Which word or words in the two word phrase "broken off" are you
having the biggest difficulty in understanding, Mike ?

Tell you what Mike, if you're still having trouble understanding
any of this, why not show this post to somebody else ?


michael adams

When ****wits start to argue with stupid ****rs, its time to break out
the popcorn.

--
Any fool can believe in principles - and most of them do!

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 11:42:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 11/07/17 11:10, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:31:36 +0100, "michael adams"
wrote:


"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...

Which school of extremely ****ing stupid did you attend?

Obviously not the same one as you.

You first post a message with the above as the tag line.

And only then, do you decide to post a second message.
Full of what I suppose you regard as helpful information
and advice; presumably expecting me to bother reading it.

But then, to work out that maybe you posted those messages
in the wrong order, would probably take an IQ in double
figures.

It's you that were so retarded you posted two discrete responses to my initial
single post.

But either way its clear you are a ****wit who posted a load of ********. Left
hand die and then a left hand nut to extract a broken off bolt head????? Even
Dr Drivel/IMM would not have come up with such a clueless idea.

espceially since 'stud exctractors' are left hand TAPS....

Stud extractors like that have are no longer used by anyone with a clue, they
are the last preserve of the amateur and shysters who continue to sell such
crap. Other methods, far faster and far less prone to in-situ breakage have been
the norm in a professional engineering environment for well over two decades.

Has anyone actually mentioned the tool designed for this job, yet?

No, and with only 15mm of an 8mm bolt shank exposed it almost certainly would
not work, 25mm and it just might.

--