re grenfell tower fire question
 

Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir starting.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Friday, 23 June 2017 19:21:28 UTC+1, ss wrote:
Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir starting.

Depends on the details of the fridge fault. MCBs certainly don't eliminate all fires.


NT

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:
Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

What trip switch?

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:
Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a lower-than-normal
resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a larger current (or a
current through the wrong material, allowing it to heat up) but not a
current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

ss wrote

Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

Its not always possible for the trip in the cu to prevent a fire.

For example, if the butane like refrigerant in the fridge starts
to leak out due to a seal or weld failure and that is ignited
by something as simple as a relay tripping normally to start
the motor because its not cold enough, no cu trip is going
to even notice any electrical problem until the fire melts
wires and produces a short that way, by which time the
fire is well alight and it doesnt matter if the mains is
disconnected, the fire will keep burning.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/17 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It sounded to me like the PP thought there was some magic fire detecting
device...

Back to the point, the fuse in the fridge's plug would be the first to
go, unless there was an RCD *and* the appliance is a Class I (earthed)
device (which seems likely for a metal fridge).

But it's possible to start a fire with no serious overload - with the
right conditions, an amp at 230V can make things extremely hot - and if
the hot thing is next to a combustible thing...

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/2017 19:21, ss wrote:

Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

Not necessarily - it depends on if the fault caused it to draw too much
current or allow excess earth leakage. If the answer to both those is
"no", then the circuit protection will be none the wiser that things are
going pear shaped elsewhere.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Friday, 23 June 2017 20:36:46 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 23/06/17 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It sounded to me like the PP thought there was some magic fire detecting
device...

Back to the point, the fuse in the fridge's plug would be the first to
go, unless there was an RCD *and* the appliance is a Class I (earthed)
device (which seems likely for a metal fridge).

But it's possible to start a fire with no serious overload - with the
right conditions, an amp at 230V can make things extremely hot - and if
the hot thing is next to a combustible thing...

The bimetal cutout on the fridge compressor, the plug fuse, the MCB, the RCD, the supplier's fuse and if present (very unlikely) an AFCI are all fire preventing devices. All of them only work on a percentage of fire causing faults.


NT

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:02:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, 23 June 2017 20:36:46 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 23/06/17 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It sounded to me like the PP thought there was some magic fire detecting
device...

Back to the point, the fuse in the fridge's plug would be the first to
go, unless there was an RCD *and* the appliance is a Class I (earthed)
device (which seems likely for a metal fridge).

But it's possible to start a fire with no serious overload - with the
right conditions, an amp at 230V can make things extremely hot - and if
the hot thing is next to a combustible thing...

The bimetal cutout on the fridge compressor, the plug fuse, the MCB, the RCD, the supplier's fuse and if present (very unlikely) an AFCI are all fire preventing devices. All of them only work on a percentage of fire causing faults.


NT

I've never seen an AFCI, I see they are now common in the USA and that
they are prone to false tripping.


--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Saturday, 24 June 2017 00:51:15 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:02:56 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 23 June 2017 20:36:46 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 23/06/17 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It sounded to me like the PP thought there was some magic fire detecting
device...

Back to the point, the fuse in the fridge's plug would be the first to
go, unless there was an RCD *and* the appliance is a Class I (earthed)
device (which seems likely for a metal fridge).

But it's possible to start a fire with no serious overload - with the
right conditions, an amp at 230V can make things extremely hot - and if
the hot thing is next to a combustible thing...

The bimetal cutout on the fridge compressor, the plug fuse, the MCB, the RCD, the supplier's fuse and if present (very unlikely) an AFCI are all fire preventing devices. All of them only work on a percentage of fire causing faults.

I've never seen an AFCI, I see they are now common in the USA and that
they are prone to false tripping.

AIUI the 18th will make them common here. A workaround will be needed for old arcy sparky equipment.


NT

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/2017 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:
Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the
mains meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a
fir starting.

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

ELCB may potentially save you if the cable chars or melts sufficiently
to allow a live to earth current that trips it out. But if you are out
of luck the leak goes live to neutral and a nominal 13A fuse will
support something like 20A for a few minutes...

Seen that happen with internally molten overloaded extension leads that
haven't been unwound properly. All the ones in out village hall now have
thermal cutouts to defend against potential abuse.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It is particularly bad in those tall floor fan heaters that swivel from
side to side with a 13A fuse and a cable that is forever being twisted
to and fro when the thing is in use and allowed to move as designed.

It isn't really a case of if it fails so much as when...

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/17 21:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/06/2017 19:21, ss wrote:

Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

Not necessarily - it depends on if the fault caused it to draw too much
current or allow excess earth leakage. If the answer to both those is
"no", then the circuit protection will be none the wiser that things are
going pear shaped elsewhere.



While, assuming there was an RCD on the circuit, it is hard to believe
once the fire 'took hold', the insulation wouldn't cause it to trip, the
fire could easily continue to burn.

The real question is, why the occupier/owner didn't take steps to
contain the fire and call the fire brigade. Early reports indicate he
collected items and told a neighbour, who could see the fire in his
kitchen- meaning the door to his flat was open. Had the precaution of
simply closing doors and windows etc. and ensuring the fire service were
called, could the fire have been contained?

Those being evacuated in Camden reported that there had been several
fires in their block(s), all of which had been contained.

This isn't an attempt to blame the tenant, he may well have simply
panicked or not known what to do for whatever reason. Sadly, such things
happen.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 21:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/06/2017 19:21, ss wrote:

Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir
starting.

Not necessarily - it depends on if the fault caused it to draw too much
current or allow excess earth leakage. If the answer to both those is
"no", then the circuit protection will be none the wiser that things are
going pear shaped elsewhere.



While, assuming there was an RCD on the circuit, it is hard to believe
once the fire 'took hold', the insulation wouldn't cause it to trip, the
fire could easily continue to burn.

The real question is, why the occupier/owner didn't take steps to contain
the fire and call the fire brigade. Early reports indicate he collected
items and told a neighbour, who could see the fire in his kitchen- meaning
the door to his flat was open. Had the precaution of simply closing doors
and windows etc. and ensuring the fire service were called, could the fire
have been contained?

Those being evacuated in Camden reported that there had been several fires
in their block(s), all of which had been contained.

This isn't an attempt to blame the tenant, he may well have simply
panicked or not known what to do for whatever reason. Sadly, such things
happen.

when the transformer went in my TS520SE the amount of smoke was unbelievable
but I managed to cut the power before the house RCD tripped .......

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 23/06/2017 19:37, wrote:
On Friday, 23 June 2017 19:21:28 UTC+1, ss wrote:
Not being electrically savvy but should the `trip` switch on the mains
meter not have clicked in and cut the current off to prevent a fir starting.

Depends on the details of the fridge fault. MCBs certainly don't eliminate all fires.


NT


I blame 'frost-free' fridge freezers. This involves heating elements
in close contact with plastic and nasty insulation, and
circuit boards with microprocssors that then need a low voltage
dc supply from the mains, which means additional gubbins that
can overheat.

My Liebherr fridge freezer has a bog standard electro-mechanical
thstat with wax inside it and the microswitches are enclosed
inside a fairly tough metal box.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

--
Davey.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Davey" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

yes that ....

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever designed
to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he meant the mains
transformer in the integrated supply which, in this case would have been
a special to provide heater and HT voltages for the valves (vacuum tubes)
as well as low level DC voltages for the transistorised portions (it was
a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves in the final stages of the
transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF output power rating).

--
Johnny B Good

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT
Johnny B Good wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves
in the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF
output power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... . "

--
Davey.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:37:25 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves in
the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF output
power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... . "

Agreed! :-)

--
Johnny B Good

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:37:25 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves in
the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF output
power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... . "

Agreed! :-)

jeeezus christ I was replying to another albeit class B radio ham Brian
Reay...

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 08:22:16 +0100, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:37:25 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves
in the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF
output power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... .
"

Agreed! :-)

jeeezus christ I was replying to another albeit class B radio ham Brian
Reay...

No such thing as a class B.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Saturday, 24 June 2017 01:20:09 UTC+1, wrote:
I've never seen an AFCI, I see they are now common in the USA and that
they are prone to false tripping.
AIUI the 18th will make them common here. A workaround will be needed for
old arcy sparky equipment.

And 18th Edition Amendment 1 will introduce requirements for emergency lighting to stop people falling down stairs in darkness from the false tripping..

18th Edition Amendment 2 will require all telecoms equipment to be supplied through UPS so that people can call 999 on their cordless phone after they've fallen down the stairs in darkness from the false tripping but not updated their installation to Amendment 1.

NICEIC will introduce a new mandatory course for members "Plugging in a UPS".

The Scottish Government will require all fridge-freezers in rented accommodation to be inspected annually by an accredited electrician ... oh hang on, they already do.

Owain

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In message , at
02:13:40 on Sun, 25 Jun 2017, remarked:

The Scottish Government will require all fridge-freezers in rented
accommodation to be inspected annually by an accredited electrician
... oh hang on, they already do.

All of them, or just the ones on a landlord's inventory? If it's also
ones supplied by tenants (as appears to be the case in most social
housing, according to people posting here), how do TPTB know which flats
need inspecting?
--
Roland Perry

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 11:12:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

All of them, or just the ones on a landlord's inventory? If it's also
ones supplied by tenants (as appears to be the case in most social
housing, according to people posting here), how do TPTB know which flats
need inspecting?

Simples.

It'll be assumed that all address's have one or more of fridge or
freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection authority will be able to
obtain a warrant to search any property they suspect may have an
unregistered fridge, freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection
authority will also write annual threatening letters to any address
that doesn't have a current record of the precense of an inspected
fridge or freezer or fridge freezer. It will be up to the householder
to obtain, at their cost, an Inspection Certificate from an
accredited Inspection Provider. Once obtained the housholder will
have to pass the certificate details to the Inspection Authority,
this will only be able to be done online. Failure to submit the
certificate details will result in an automatic, non-contestable,
fine. Not being able to use the online submission service will not be
a valid excuse for not submitting the certificate details.

--
Cheers
Dave.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On 24/06/2017 01:20, wrote:
On Saturday, 24 June 2017 00:51:15 UTC+1, Graham. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:02:56 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 23 June 2017 20:36:46 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 23/06/17 20:05, NY wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 23/06/17 19:21, ss wrote:

What trip switch?

The over-current or earth leakage trip-switches in the "fuse box". Or in
extreme case the 60 A "company fuse" (which i think is always still an
old-fashioned melting-metal fuse). But I think you *did* know that.

The difficulty is when the short is not to earth and is a
lower-than-normal resistance but not a complete short, so you draw a
larger current (or a current through the wrong material, allowing it to
heat up) but not a current that is large enough to blow/trip the cutout.

It sounded to me like the PP thought there was some magic fire detecting
device...

Back to the point, the fuse in the fridge's plug would be the first to
go, unless there was an RCD *and* the appliance is a Class I (earthed)
device (which seems likely for a metal fridge).

But it's possible to start a fire with no serious overload - with the
right conditions, an amp at 230V can make things extremely hot - and if
the hot thing is next to a combustible thing...

The bimetal cutout on the fridge compressor, the plug fuse, the MCB, the RCD, the supplier's fuse and if present (very unlikely) an AFCI are all fire preventing devices. All of them only work on a percentage of fire causing faults.

I've never seen an AFCI, I see they are now common in the USA and that
they are prone to false tripping.

AIUI the 18th will make them common here. A workaround will be needed for old arcy sparky equipment.

The 18th edition draft makes a brief mention of them, but gives little
indication of when or how they would be used. It basically (at this
stage) allows for their use.

(I will post the draft text in another thread)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 08:22:16 +0100, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:37:25 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves
in the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF
output power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... .
"

Agreed! :-)

jeeezus christ I was replying to another albeit class B radio ham Brian
Reay...

No such thing as a class B.

only class Bs believe that ....tee hee

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-06-25, Bob Eager wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 08:22:16 +0100, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 00:37:25 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:00:20 GMT Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:01:44 +0100, Davey wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:28:27 +0100 "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

when the transformer went in my TS520SE

Your what?

For the benefit of those who lack basic google skills (or CBA to
google), it's a 1970s Kenwood "Ham Radio" shortwave transciever
designed to be run off mains power (120/220/240vac). Presumably he
meant the mains transformer in the integrated supply which, in this
case would have been a special to provide heater and HT voltages for
the valves (vacuum tubes) as well as low level DC voltages for the
transistorised portions (it was a 'Hybrid' design relying on valves
in the final stages of the transmitter to achieve its 100W PEP RF
output power rating).


Thank you. It would have been simple to include a reference to its
purpose in the original message, such as:

"when the transformer went in my TS520SE shortwave transceiver, ... .
"

Agreed! :-)

jeeezus christ I was replying to another albeit class B radio ham Brian
Reay...

So why use a broadcast medium?

No such thing as a class B.

Can we not do that here?


worth doing it anywhere .....

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 11:12:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

All of them, or just the ones on a landlord's inventory? If it's also
ones supplied by tenants (as appears to be the case in most social
housing, according to people posting here), how do TPTB know which flats
need inspecting?

Simples.

It'll be assumed that all address's have one or more of fridge or
freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection authority will be able to
obtain a warrant to search any property they suspect may have an
unregistered fridge, freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection
authority will also write annual threatening letters to any address
that doesn't have a current record of the precense of an inspected
fridge or freezer or fridge freezer. It will be up to the householder
to obtain, at their cost, an Inspection Certificate from an
accredited Inspection Provider. Once obtained the housholder will
have to pass the certificate details to the Inspection Authority,
this will only be able to be done online. Failure to submit the
certificate details will result in an automatic, non-contestable,
fine. Not being able to use the online submission service will not be
a valid excuse for not submitting the certificate details.

But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc is
likely to catch fire?

Bit like saying a car with a fresh MOT won't break down.

--
*HOW DO THEY GET DEER TO CROSS THE ROAD ONLY AT THOSE YELLOW ROAD SIGNS?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc is
likely to catch fire?

Bit like saying a car with a fresh MOT won't break down.

I think the warning is in the name HOTpoint .....

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In article , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes


But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc is
likely to catch fire?

Bit like saying a car with a fresh MOT won't break down.

I think the warning is in the name HOTpoint .....


Didn't Beko have a similar problem not long ago?
--
bert

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim GM4DHJ ...
writes


But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc
is
likely to catch fire?

Bit like saying a car with a fresh MOT won't break down.

I think the warning is in the name HOTpoint .....


Didn't Beko have a similar problem not long ago?

yes wouldn't touch a Beko anything .....

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 14:57:51 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 11:12:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

All of them, or just the ones on a landlord's inventory? If it's
also
ones supplied by tenants (as appears to be the case in most
social
housing, according to people posting here), how do TPTB know
which
flats need inspecting?

Simples.

It'll be assumed that all address's have one or more of fridge or
freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection authority will be able
to
obtain a warrant to search any property they suspect may have an
unregistered fridge, freezer or fridge/freezer. The inspection
authority will also write annual threatening letters to any
address
that doesn't have a current record of the precense of an inspected
fridge or freezer or fridge freezer. It will be up to the
householder
to obtain, at their cost, an Inspection Certificate from an
accredited Inspection Provider. Once obtained the housholder will
have to pass the certificate details to the Inspection Authority,
this will only be able to be done online. Failure to submit the
certificate details will result in an automatic, non-contestable,
fine. Not being able to use the online submission service will not
be
a valid excuse for not submitting the certificate details.

But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc
is likely to catch fire?

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".

--
Cheers
Dave.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".


There were some Hotpoint fridge/freezers a few years ago that
apparently had a problem with the wires that went out to the doors, they
would chafe, or something. Ours was similar, but not of the exact range
that suffered from the problem.

--
Davey.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
But would a casual inspection show a fridge freezer or tumble drier etc
is likely to catch fire?

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".

That might apply to truly portable things - but fridge freezers and tumble
driers?

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:46:58 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or
otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with
the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is
pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".

That might apply to truly portable things - but fridge freezers and
tumble driers?

Why not? Plugged in via extension cable and/or multi socket plug
stuff dangling in the space, things gradually corrode/work loose,
high resistance, heat, fire...

You, I and most people in here wouldn't do that sort of thing but
great many people haven't a clue about electricity.

--
Cheers
Dave.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:46:58 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or
otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with
the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is
pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".

That might apply to truly portable things - but fridge freezers and
tumble driers?

Why not? Plugged in via extension cable and/or multi socket plug
stuff dangling in the space, things gradually corrode/work loose,
high resistance, heat, fire...

These were newly refurbished flats. With, I'd guess, enough sockets for
the normal kitchen stuff - and in the right place. I

You, I and most people in here wouldn't do that sort of thing but
great many people haven't a clue about electricity.

It's mostly AV and computer stuff that ends up on extension leads.
Kitchens tend to be much better in that respect.

--
*Why is it that to stop Windows 95, you have to click on "Start"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:46:58 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I suspect most "eletrical appliance" fires are damaged or
otherwise
abused cables and plug/sockets rather than an actual fault with
the
appliance(*). Just like most things failing a PAT on the visual
inspection rather than what the box says when the button is
pressed.

(*) Note "fault" not "poor design".

That might apply to truly portable things - but fridge freezers and
tumble driers?

Why not? Plugged in via extension cable and/or multi socket plug
stuff dangling in the space, things gradually corrode/work loose,
high resistance, heat, fire...

These were newly refurbished flats. With, I'd guess, enough sockets for
the normal kitchen stuff - and in the right place. I

You, I and most people in here wouldn't do that sort of thing but
great many people haven't a clue about electricity.

It's mostly AV and computer stuff that ends up on extension leads.
Kitchens tend to be much better in that respect.

Even sillier than you usually manage, and that’s saying something.

re grenfell tower fire question
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

These were newly refurbished flats. With, I'd guess, enough sockets for
the normal kitchen stuff - and in the right place.

Other than new windows and possibly new heating, was anything else done
inside the individual flats?

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In message , at 07:41:08 on Tue, 27
Jun 2017, Andy Burns remarked:

These were newly refurbished flats. With, I'd guess, enough sockets for
the normal kitchen stuff - and in the right place.

Other than new windows and possibly new heating, was anything else done
inside the individual flats?

The former galley kitchen and lounge were converted into a
kitchen/diner. I'd be surprised if they didn't also have new bathrooms.
--
Roland Perry

re grenfell tower fire question
 

In article , Andy Burns
writes
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

These were newly refurbished flats. With, I'd guess, enough sockets for
the normal kitchen stuff - and in the right place.

Other than new windows and possibly new heating, was anything else done
inside the individual flats?

Hopefully as they spent £70k per flat compared to £50k next door.
--
bert