Hi all

Wandering round the estate (west of Hull (city of culture)), I
notice more of these electric-petrol hybrids appearing.

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?
Is an electric drive inherently more efficient than an i c engine?
Does regenerative braking make a serious contribution to energy
saving?

I suppose it is unlikely that anyone will run a specific make and
model of petrol car then swap this for an identical spec hybrid
version. But I guess this would be the closest comparison
possible - given that it would probably be driven by the same
person in the same way on the same roads.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 10/06/2017 19:37, Tim Streater wrote:

We got an Auris Hybrid about 6 months ago. I'm keeping a spreadsheet of
fuel purchased vs. miles driven and charting (a) mileage between
fillups, (b) average mileage over last five fillups, and (c) average
mileage since purchase.

Latest values (after about 4200 miles): (a) 59mpg (b) 58mpg (c) 55mpg.


Back in the 70's, Autocar used to cover car rallies where the main
aim was use the least amount of fuel.

Even driving cars of that era, astonishing MPG was being
attained which must be down to very careful driving.

I suspect todays hybrids just superimpose the action of
a careful driver onto a normal driver to achieve the same
sort of economy.

In stop/start slow traffic a hybrid must have a massive
advantage while there is stored energy available, whereas
a gentle cross country run would show less advantage.

Andrew wrote:
I suspect todays hybrids just superimpose the action of
a careful driver onto a normal driver to achieve the same
sort of economy.

Yes, there's a certain amount of driver training - the displays make it like
a video game, where you're aiming to get the high score (mpg).

However that's not bad as such: if you drive it like an F1 car you'll
likely get terrible mpg - just like an F1 car. So a bit of training isn't a
bad thing. Some hybrids (eg Prius) are very conservatively built, so won't
enter the WRC anytime soon, while others are sportier - but if you drive one
sportily then expect to pay for it.

But there's still enough advantages to make it worthwhile: you probably
won't be driving around town sportily anyway, and it can still make
efficiency savings if you do.

In stop/start slow traffic a hybrid must have a massive
advantage while there is stored energy available, whereas
a gentle cross country run would show less advantage.

Indeed. Though driving at 55 rather than 70 shows a marked advantage.
(I was on the motorway the other day stuck behind a crane doing 40 and it
kicked into battery-only mode - so even then it can help)

To answe the OP's questions:

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?

I haev a 10 year old Gen2 Prius, which are getting cheap on the secondhamd
market now. I'm getting about 58mpg on the display, town or motorway.
I think the display over-reads by about 3mpg, but haven't done enough to
properly calibrate it.

Maybe I should try a tank's-worth of thrashing it, just to see how bad I can
get the average ;-)

Is an electric drive inherently more efficient than an i c engine?

Yes:
The battery is used at times when the IC would be inefficient
The battery can provide bursts of pwoer, so the IC engine can be sized
smaller and operate in a more efficient region - eg the Prius is 1.5l for a
large-ish car that might typically be a 2l petrol.
The gearbox is simplified, reducing losses over a typical automatic
It's possible to drive entirely on electric, if you aren't going far enough
to be worth warming up the engine.

Additionally there are some IC engine energy saving tricks, eg putting the
engine oil in a Thermos flask to keep it warm when stopped. I think they
gave up on that in future models because it wasn't worth it.

Does regenerative braking make a serious ^Mcontribution to energy
saving?

I typically get 50-100Wh in 5 minutes of town driving, or decelerating from
70 to a stop at the lights at the top of a motorway ramp. That's enough to
go 1/8 - 1/4 mile. So not massive, but it helps. It also means almost
never having to change brake pads or discs.

Theo

Theo wrote:

there's a certain amount of driver training - the displays make it like
a video game, where you're aiming to get the high score (mpg).

But you can play that game (keep my instantaneous mpg above my average
mpg) with a conventional car too ... of course it becomes impossible to
improve eventually.

IIt also will be heavier unladen than a pure petrol car I'd have thought
unless the petrol car has a really big tank.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"TheChief" wrote in message
news
Hi all

Wandering round the estate (west of Hull (city of culture)), I
notice more of these electric-petrol hybrids appearing.

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?
Is an electric drive inherently more efficient than an i c engine?
Does regenerative braking make a serious contribution to energy
saving?

I suppose it is unlikely that anyone will run a specific make and
model of petrol car then swap this for an identical spec hybrid
version. But I guess this would be the closest comparison
possible - given that it would probably be driven by the same
person in the same way on the same roads.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Saturday, 10 June 2017 21:57:41 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
I suspect todays hybrids just superimpose the action of
a careful driver onto a normal driver to achieve the same
sort of economy.

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?

I haev a 10 year old Gen2 Prius, which are getting cheap on the secondhamd
market now. I'm getting about 58mpg on the display, town or motorway.
I think the display over-reads by about 3mpg, but haven't done enough to
properly calibrate it.

A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.


NT

Theo wrote:

I haev a 10 year old Gen2 Prius, which are getting cheap on the secondhamd
market now.

Round here the second-hand one mainly seem to become taxis, I don't know
if they survive lunar mileage as well as, or better than, the usual
favourites?

laid this down on his screen :
A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but they're
not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

My 2L straight diesel in a big heavy car regularly manages 50mpg solo.
I once managed over 60mpg on a single run to and from the coast. I
don't use it for town work, only open road and for towing. In towns I
use an hybrid, called a modern bus

wrote:
A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but
they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

If all you're going to do is 70mph cruising, they're equal in mpg to a
diesel (though the other advantages like lower maintenance still stand).

The difference is that the diesel is much worse when driven slower, while
the hybrid has a pretty much constant mpg across the range. So if you drive
on the motorway when it's congested, it does a lot better. Or you do much
town driving - there's a good reason a lot of taxis have switched to
hybrids.

Theo

Andy Burns wrote:
Theo wrote:

I haev a 10 year old Gen2 Prius, which are getting cheap on the secondhamd
market now.

Round here the second-hand one mainly seem to become taxis, I don't know
if they survive lunar mileage as well as, or better than, the usual
favourites?

You do have to pick through the dross. However there isn't a whole lot to
go wrong. I've seen listings for secondhand ones with 300-400K miles on
them and they still go. Bear in mind that the engine only runs when it
feels the need, so it's very easy on it.

In the 150K range, basically you should expect to budget for a new high
voltage battery (GBP950) - a bit like doing the DPF on a diesel. Around
then you tend to hit maintenance things you'd have earlier on another car:
pads/discs, spark plugs, transmission oil, coolant (radiator and inverter),
12V battery, tyres, AC regas. Almost all of those are things Toyota offers
for fixed prices (GBP200 mostly). The drive itself is basically
zero-maintenance.

Like any used car, finding one that's been treated well helps - not the one
I viewed that had no oil in it and emitted black smoke. I don't think
there's an issue with a well-kept high-miler, it's the one that's been
flogged is the problem.

I managed to avoid a couple of turkeys by reading the codes when I went to
view - when the car says 'replace HV battery now' that's probably not one
you want to be buying unless that's already priced in. Also a lot of
dealers keep them on the forecourt with a flat 12V battery - while you can
jump start them, running on a low aux supply tends to confuse the
electronics which isn't a good idea when you want to see if everything
works.

Basically they take high miles well, they just don't like being
unmaintained.

Theo

On Sunday, 11 June 2017 09:15:49 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:

A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but
they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

If all you're going to do is 70mph cruising, they're equal in mpg to a
diesel (though the other advantages like lower maintenance still stand).

The difference is that the diesel is much worse when driven slower, while
the hybrid has a pretty much constant mpg across the range. So if you drive
on the motorway when it's congested, it does a lot better. Or you do much
town driving - there's a good reason a lot of taxis have switched to
hybrids.

Theo

I get 66-70 in a plain diesel estate from all driving combined. What hybrid does that?


NT

On 11/06/2017 08:35, wrote:
On Saturday, 10 June 2017 21:57:41 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
Andrew wrote:
I suspect todays hybrids just superimpose the action of
a careful driver onto a normal driver to achieve the same
sort of economy.

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?

I haev a 10 year old Gen2 Prius, which are getting cheap on the secondhamd
market now. I'm getting about 58mpg on the display, town or motorway.
I think the display over-reads by about 3mpg, but haven't done enough to
properly calibrate it.

A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.


NT


The point of them is to get into a lower tax bracket and to avoid the
congestion charge.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
In stop/start slow traffic a hybrid must have a massive
advantage while there is stored energy available, whereas
a gentle cross country run would show less advantage.

Yes - the really big difference is in heavy stop start traffic in cities.
Hence just about every Uber mini-cab in London being a used Prius.

Once you get to the sort of driving where the IC engine is doing the
majority of the work, they can actually be at a disadvantage.

But for the majority of domestic users they are likely to be cheaper to
run as regards fuel costs. Other costs like maintenance, depreciation and
purchase costs would need to be worked out by the individual.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11 Jun 2017 09:15:46 +0100 (BST), Theo
wrote:

wrote:
A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but
they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

If all you're going to do is 70mph cruising, they're equal in mpg to a
diesel (though the other advantages like lower maintenance still stand).

The difference is that the diesel is much worse when driven slower, while
the hybrid has a pretty much constant mpg across the range. So if you drive
on the motorway when it's congested, it does a lot better. Or you do much
town driving - there's a good reason a lot of taxis have switched to
hybrids.

Yes, low / zero road tax and exempt the congestion charge. ;-)

I guess if you are driving for your living, all that is very
important.

But re road tax ... whist I can see it an incentive to some (those who
can't afford to pay whatever the cost ... or need otherwise (like
tradesmen etc)), if the point of road tax is to pay for using (and
maintaining) the roads, does that mean like FIT, the rest of us are
paying more just because our income / lifestyles mean we can't use or
afford such?

Like, I often tow stuff and am not sure how many EV's or Hybrids can
have a tow bar?

And what when we are all driving them?

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Like, I often tow stuff and am not sure how many EV's or Hybrids can
have a tow bar?

Dunno about now, but the Lexus hybrid Chelsea Tractor is very very
popular, but couldn't tow anything useful. Unlike a Range Rover. You'd
have thought being able to tow a pony box mandatory.

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 11 Jun 2017 13:55:33 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
Like, I often tow stuff and am not sure how many EV's or Hybrids can
have a tow bar?

Dunno about now, but the Lexus hybrid Chelsea Tractor is very very
popular, but couldn't tow anything useful. Unlike a Range Rover. You'd
have thought being able to tow a pony box mandatory.

Quite. ;-)

About the only std car I'm aware of that isn't approved for a towbar
is a (1.3) Ka (so potentially also the Fiat 500)?

Daughter has a towbar on her 1.2 16V Corsa and it tows a small camping
/ goods trailer with no issue. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 11/06/2017 10:38, wrote:
On Sunday, 11 June 2017 09:15:49 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:

A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but
they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

If all you're going to do is 70mph cruising, they're equal in mpg to a
diesel (though the other advantages like lower maintenance still stand).

The difference is that the diesel is much worse when driven slower, while
the hybrid has a pretty much constant mpg across the range. So if you drive
on the motorway when it's congested, it does a lot better. Or you do much
town driving - there's a good reason a lot of taxis have switched to
hybrids.

Theo

I get 66-70 in a plain diesel estate from all driving combined. What hybrid does that?

Which one?

Look it up on here https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/, and compare
typical driver's results with other cars. You may be an unusually
economical driver. The Prius, BTW, doesn't do as well as the book figures.

My son had an Astra diesel until recently, when he switched to a Mazda 3
petrol.

Which is using less fuel.

It's a lot nicer to drive too!

Andy

On Sunday, 11 June 2017 21:22:31 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 11/06/2017 10:38, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 11 June 2017 09:15:49 UTC+1, Theo wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:

A straight diesel gets better. Hybrids seemed like a good idea, but
they're not getting better mpg, which is the whole point of them.

If all you're going to do is 70mph cruising, they're equal in mpg to a
diesel (though the other advantages like lower maintenance still stand).

The difference is that the diesel is much worse when driven slower, while
the hybrid has a pretty much constant mpg across the range. So if you drive
on the motorway when it's congested, it does a lot better. Or you do much
town driving - there's a good reason a lot of taxis have switched to
hybrids.

Theo

I get 66-70 in a plain diesel estate from all driving combined. What hybrid does that?

Which one?

Look it up on here https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/, and compare
typical driver's results with other cars. You may be an unusually
economical driver.

I am. Official figure is 60mpg iirc.

The Prius, BTW, doesn't do as well as the book figures.

My son had an Astra diesel until recently, when he switched to a Mazda 3
petrol.

Which is using less fuel.

It's a lot nicer to drive too!

Andy

Hybrids sound good on paper, but for whatever reason they just aren't delivering the mpg to warrant their existence. If they lived upto the hype they ought to be doing over 70mpg.


NT

On 10/06/2017 19:10, TheChief wrote:
Hi all

Wandering round the estate (west of Hull (city of culture)), I
notice more of these electric-petrol hybrids appearing.

Do any members of the group run these and, if so, have they any
idea on real world efficiency/economy figures?
Is an electric drive inherently more efficient than an i c engine?
Does regenerative braking make a serious
contribution to energy
saving?

I suppose it is unlikely that anyone will run a specific make and
model of petrol car then swap this for an identical spec hybrid
version. But I guess this would be the closest comparison
possible - given that it would probably be driven by the same
person in the same way on the same roads.

Phil


I drive a Peugeot 508 RXH Diesel/electric company car. In the 2 years
I've had it MPG has never bettered 47 despite manufacturers claim of
70+. Probably could be lower but I run it in Sport mode most of the time.

Despite this it does what I wanted it to do. Reduce the monthly "Benefit
in kind" I have to pay the tax man by £120 had I taken another Audi
Allroad with the same spec, despite the Peugeot's higher purchase price.
This is due to the manufacturers claimed much lower CO2 on which
"Benefit in kind" taxation is based.

It does everything my last Allroad did and surprisingly even when
running on the diesel engine is much quieter!

With a fully charged battery the acceleration is fantastic:-)

Mike

In article ,
wrote:
Hybrids sound good on paper, but for whatever reason they just aren't
delivering the mpg to warrant their existence. If they lived upto the
hype they ought to be doing over 70mpg.

As I said, they do work very well in cities - heavy stop start traffic.
It's for a very good reason many city buses are now hybrids. There has to
be an advantage to make the extra cost worthwhile.

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10-Jun-17 9:06 PM, Andrew wrote:
On 10/06/2017 19:37, Tim Streater wrote:

We got an Auris Hybrid about 6 months ago. I'm keeping a spreadsheet of
fuel purchased vs. miles driven and charting (a) mileage between
fillups, (b) average mileage over last five fillups, and (c) average
mileage since purchase.

Latest values (after about 4200 miles): (a) 59mpg (b) 58mpg (c) 55mpg.


Back in the 70's, Autocar used to cover car rallies where the main
aim was use the least amount of fuel.

Even driving cars of that era, astonishing MPG was being
attained which must be down to very careful driving...

Plus a lot of instrumentation that allowed you to monitor engine power
output, instantaneous fuel consumption etc.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Monday, 12 June 2017 19:38:15 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 10-Jun-17 9:06 PM, Andrew wrote:
On 10/06/2017 19:37, Tim Streater wrote:

We got an Auris Hybrid about 6 months ago. I'm keeping a spreadsheet of
fuel purchased vs. miles driven and charting (a) mileage between
fillups, (b) average mileage over last five fillups, and (c) average
mileage since purchase.

Latest values (after about 4200 miles): (a) 59mpg (b) 58mpg (c) 55mpg.


Back in the 70's, Autocar used to cover car rallies where the main
aim was use the least amount of fuel.

Even driving cars of that era, astonishing MPG was being
attained which must be down to very careful driving...

Plus a lot of instrumentation that allowed you to monitor engine power
output, instantaneous fuel consumption etc.

Consulting an efficiency graph versus speed & load gives quite a good idea of how to get better mpg. When/if not available for the specific engine, a lot of other engines are quite similar.


NT