For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?
--
Bill

On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Stuck Zone valve?


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 10:45:47 AM UTC, Michael Chare wrote:
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Stuck Zone valve?


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



On my CH zone valves you can feel with a finger underneath and find the spring-loaded lever that should be moving the valve. You can feel this change from being 'loose, to 'tight' when the valve opens/closes without needing to take the cover off.

The firing of the boiler is usually determined by the actual position of the physical valves, rather than what their commanded position is. So if they get stuck open then the boiler fires.

Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?
Is there a frost protection stat that is telling lies? This would
normally be wired to bypass both timer and room stat.

Bob Minchin wrote:
Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?
Is there a frost protection stat that is telling lies? This would
normally be wired to bypass both timer and room stat.
Also check if the "demand" terminal on the boiler is live. If it is not
live and yet the boiler runs, then suspect the control board.
If the demand terminal is live then it is the external controls giving
wrong instructions to the boiler.

On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

Because of my persistent bad back

I find that the maximum dosage of Ibuprofen (400 mg) does not work for
me at all, even taken over a prolonged period. But a couple of doses of
600 mg does. Be aware of the serious risks from overdosing, though. And,
this is not a recommendation, just a comment on my personal experience.

On Wednesday, 8 March 2017 11:20:12 UTC, Bob Minchin wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?
Is there a frost protection stat that is telling lies? This would
normally be wired to bypass both timer and room stat.
Also check if the "demand" terminal on the boiler is live. If it is not
live and yet the boiler runs, then suspect the control board.
If the demand terminal is live then it is the external controls giving
wrong instructions to the boiler.

the only sure way is to measure voltages to locate the problem. You might be able to pin it down by seeing the result of operating the various controls, maybe.


NT

On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Yes! On an S-Plan system, the timers and stats drive the zone valves -
and it is the zone valves which actually switch the boiler and pump on.
So, if the CH zone valve sticks in the open position - or if the
contacts in its micro-switch fuse together, the boiler and pump will run
continuously regardless of what the timers and stats are doing.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Possibly...

Have a look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/0/0d/S-Plan-Wiring.gif

Note that the grey wires to both zone valves is permanently connected to
live. Hence if for any reason the valve caused to be in the "open" (i.e.
heating on) position, then its internal microswitch will output a call
for heat on the orange wire to the boiler / pump etc.

So you have two possibilities; One, both the programmer and the stat are
erroneously calling for heat all the time (seems unlikely), or two; the
CH valve is physically stuck open (or at least its microswitch is stuck
in the activated position), and hence if feeding a spurious call for
heat to the boiler even when the programmer / stat are not requesting it.

The fact that the rads are getting hot would suggest that the valve is
physically open - rather than it just being a switch or wiring fault.

My guess would be the valve body (i.e. the wet bit) has become stiff,
and hence the spring in the motor head is not strong enough to pull it
to the closed position when the valve is in the off state. The normal
solution would be to take the valve motor head off, lubricate the shaft
of the valve and twist it back and fourth while gripping it with a pair
of pliers. You may find that with the valve not energised (i.e.
programmer CH off), a few sharp taps on the side may free it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 8 Mar 2017 03:04:58 -0800 (PST)
RobertL wrote:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 10:45:47 AM UTC, Michael Chare wrote:
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:
For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a
Vaillent Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and
RCR10 wireless room stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot
water. All installed by a local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing
into the airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking
covers off the boxes there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on
as expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night.
I've been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the
stat and timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I
can't believe that both timeswitch and stat could have both
failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Stuck Zone valve?


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



On my CH zone valves you can feel with a finger underneath and find
the spring-loaded lever that should be moving the valve. You can
feel this change from being 'loose, to 'tight' when the valve
opens/closes without needing to take the cover off.

The firing of the boiler is usually determined by the actual position
of the physical valves, rather than what their commanded position
is. So if they get stuck open then the boiler fires.

That is exactly the fault that my system had. Even with the Programmer
set to 'Off' for both CH and DHW, the boiler was still getting a 'Run'
instruction. Removing the zone valve actuator and working the valve
stem fixed it.

--
Davey.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Possibly...

Have a look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/0/0d/S-Plan-Wiring.gif

Note that the grey wires to both zone valves is permanently connected
to live. Hence if for any reason the valve caused to be in the "open"
(i.e. heating on) position, then its internal microswitch will output a
call for heat on the orange wire to the boiler / pump etc.

So you have two possibilities; One, both the programmer and the stat
are erroneously calling for heat all the time (seems unlikely), or two;
the CH valve is physically stuck open (or at least its microswitch is
stuck in the activated position), and hence if feeding a spurious call
for heat to the boiler even when the programmer / stat are not
requesting it.

The fact that the rads are getting hot would suggest that the valve is
physically open - rather than it just being a switch or wiring fault.

My guess would be the valve body (i.e. the wet bit) has become stiff,
and hence the spring in the motor head is not strong enough to pull it
to the closed position when the valve is in the off state. The normal
solution would be to take the valve motor head off, lubricate the shaft
of the valve and twist it back and fourth while gripping it with a pair
of pliers. You may find that with the valve not energised (i.e.
programmer CH off), a few sharp taps on the side may free it.

Thanks, John, and the others who answered. I've been pretty slow because
SWMBO doesn't believe there is a problem.

I'm now pretty certain that it is a stuck zone valve, but with the
combination of its position and my back, I'm going to have to "get a man
in" to sort or replace it.

Taking a hammer to it failed, but was fun.
--
Bill

In message , GB
writes
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

Because of my persistent bad back

I find that the maximum dosage of Ibuprofen (400 mg) does not work for
me at all, even taken over a prolonged period. But a couple of doses of
600 mg does. Be aware of the serious risks from overdosing, though.
And, this is not a recommendation, just a comment on my personal
experience.

Interesting. Trouble is, I daren't take more than the recommended dose
because of all the other tablets I'm taking.

Hard to tell if the standard dose does anything, but I _think_ there is
a bit of improvement in the back, so I keep up the tablets and exercises
routine.
--
Bill

On 10/03/2017 20:48, Bill wrote:
In message , GB
writes
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

Because of my persistent bad back

I find that the maximum dosage of Ibuprofen (400 mg) does not work for
me at all, even taken over a prolonged period. But a couple of doses
of 600 mg does. Be aware of the serious risks from overdosing, though.
And, this is not a recommendation, just a comment on my personal
experience.

Interesting. Trouble is, I daren't take more than the recommended dose
because of all the other tablets I'm taking.

Hard to tell if the standard dose does anything, but I _think_ there is
a bit of improvement in the back, so I keep up the tablets and exercises
routine.

This was recommended to me by a back specialist. At the time, I had
really terrible back ache. So bad that I fainted from the pain on one
occasion.

On 10/03/2017 20:35, Bill wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 08/03/2017 10:07, Bill wrote:

For once this is my problem rather than sons or daughter.

Our central heating appears to be a basic S-type system with a Vaillent
Ecotec Plus 428 boiler, Siemens RWB2E timeswitch and RCR10 wireless room
stat. 2 Zone valves, one for CH, one or hot water. All installed by a
local company about 10 years ago.

Because of my persistent bad back, I don't feel safe climbing into the
airing cupboard and measuring voltages after taking covers off the boxes
there.
I have reset and checked the 2 controllers and all lights come on as
expected as dials are turned.

For about 5 days now the heating has been staying on all night. I've
been looking at the diywiki site and can't see how, with the stat and
timeswitch set to OFF, the system can be running. I can't believe that
both timeswitch and stat could have both failed at the same time.

Is there something I'm missing?

Possibly...

Have a look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/images/0/0d/S-Plan-Wiring.gif

Note that the grey wires to both zone valves is permanently connected
to live. Hence if for any reason the valve caused to be in the "open"
(i.e. heating on) position, then its internal microswitch will output
a call for heat on the orange wire to the boiler / pump etc.

So you have two possibilities; One, both the programmer and the stat
are erroneously calling for heat all the time (seems unlikely), or
two; the CH valve is physically stuck open (or at least its
microswitch is stuck in the activated position), and hence if feeding
a spurious call for heat to the boiler even when the programmer / stat
are not requesting it.

The fact that the rads are getting hot would suggest that the valve is
physically open - rather than it just being a switch or wiring fault.

My guess would be the valve body (i.e. the wet bit) has become stiff,
and hence the spring in the motor head is not strong enough to pull it
to the closed position when the valve is in the off state. The normal
solution would be to take the valve motor head off, lubricate the
shaft of the valve and twist it back and fourth while gripping it with
a pair of pliers. You may find that with the valve not energised (i.e.
programmer CH off), a few sharp taps on the side may free it.

Thanks, John, and the others who answered. I've been pretty slow because
SWMBO doesn't believe there is a problem.

I'm now pretty certain that it is a stuck zone valve, but with the
combination of its position and my back, I'm going to have to "get a man
in" to sort or replace it.

Taking a hammer to it failed, but was fun.

If you can reach it well enough to feel the manual lever that is on the
side of the valve, when its de-energised it should be held against one
end of its travel by the spring - as you move it by hand you should feel
resistance, and hear the gearbox / motor whirr as it moves. When you let
go, it springs back to the start.

If however its "floppy" and you can leave it at any position in its
travel, with no resistance to movement, then it is definitely stuck.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
If you can reach it well enough to feel the manual lever that is on the
side of the valve, when its de-energised it should be held against one
end of its travel by the spring - as you move it by hand you should
feel resistance, and hear the gearbox / motor whirr as it moves. When
you let go, it springs back to the start.

If however its "floppy" and you can leave it at any position in its
travel, with no resistance to movement, then it is definitely stuck.

Yes, been there, done that and it's floppy. That's when I decided we
would have to get a man in.

Many thanks for the very thorough descriptions. With the postings here
and some Youtube videos, I now feel like a theoretical expert on zone
valves.
--
Bill