I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656

On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:10:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656

You can also buy LED tubes:
https://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/l...be-lights.html

GB wrote:

I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

I guess you could screw or double-sided tape them, I have a smaller
circular one and just used an adjustable cutter to make a suitable hole
in the ceiling for it, they're no deeper than the plasterboard.

Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube? What
do you do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?



http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-Tube-with-an-
ETL-Appr/

After serious thinking Huge wrote :
Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube? What do you
do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?

The kits include a replacement 'starter' which simply shorts the
contacts out.

Surely the ballast could be by-passed!

GB wrote

I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute for
our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen?

Yeah, me too.

We just have an ordinary ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be
screwed to the ceiling and look okay?

Clearly what looks ok depends on swmbo. The one at
the bottom of this post appears to need to be recessed.
Probably would look a bit grotty/crude if it isnt.

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

Than incandescents, not than long tube fluoros.

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656

On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 17:05:37 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:

Surely the ballast could be by-passed!

Yes - and I think that is the difference between the 'plug and play'
versions and the other versions. There is also a difference depending
on whether the ballast is magnetic or electronic. This is explained
in the Philips website

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2017-03-01, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:10:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656

You can also buy LED tubes:
https://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/l...be-lights.html

Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube?

Yep.

What do you do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?

You replace those with a short circuit packaged like a starter.

On 01/03/2017 13:10, GB wrote:
I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656

Some manufactures sell special brackets to allow the panels to be
surface mounted - double check first that these allow the use of the
driver without having to bash a hole in the ceiling to hide the driver!
The slimline ones would need a hole bashing in the ceiling[1].

Their efficiency is improved by the fact that they only light up on one
side. I suppose you really ought to be comparing the LED panel
light/lumens with one of the ceiling grid panels that uses 4 x 18 2ft
tubes (say 1150 lumens per tube) that they are usually used to replace.
Then imagine some losses in the old fitting as not all the light is
directed downwards

Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness for
it's lifespan.


--
Adam

On 01/03/2017 15:51, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking Huge wrote :
Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube? What do you
do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?

The kits include a replacement 'starter' which simply shorts the
contacts out.

Thank you.

I have now done the reading I should have done before asking the damn
stupid question.


There is another guide here that covers a little more

http://luceco.com/uk/tubes

just download the T8 LED Tubes installation and Operating Instructions

(I cannot find a direct link to the info)

--
Adam

So the choke is pointless as well then. Do these devices chuck out more or
less interference on the radio frequencies I wonder?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
After serious thinking Huge wrote :
Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube? What do
you
do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?

The kits include a replacement 'starter' which simply shorts the contacts
out.

DerbyBorn wrote:

Surely the ballast could be by-passed!

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?

On 01/03/2017 20:54, Andy Burns wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote:

Surely the ballast could be by-passed!

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?


To keep it simple plug and play. Swap the tube and starter job done?

--
Adam

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
DerbyBorn wrote:

Surely the ballast could be by-passed!

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?

For ease of changing over to led tubes.

On 01/03/2017 18:37, ARW wrote:
On 01/03/2017 13:10, GB wrote:
I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656


Some manufactures sell special brackets to allow the panels to be
surface mounted - double check first that these allow the use of the
driver without having to bash a hole in the ceiling to hide the driver!
The slimline ones would need a hole bashing in the ceiling[1].

Their efficiency is improved by the fact that they only light up on one
side. I suppose you really ought to be comparing the LED panel
light/lumens with one of the ceiling grid panels that uses 4 x 18 2ft
tubes (say 1150 lumens per tube) that they are usually used to replace.
Then imagine some losses in the old fitting as not all the light is
directed downwards

Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness for
it's lifespan.


Kitchen 24 ft long previously had 9 x 60w halogen lights, replaced with
4 x 6 inch panels 12w LEDs, much brighter and `she` likes it.
Flush fitting to ceiling so had to cut out hole in plasterboard ceiling.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness for
it's lifespan.

Interesting. I recently replaced some 5mm white LEDs lighting a panel
meter because they'd gone dim. And they weren't driven hard either, at
about 8mA.

--
*Why is the man who invests all your money called a broker?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 2 March 2017 01:05:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness for
it's lifespan.

Interesting. I recently replaced some 5mm white LEDs lighting a panel
meter because they'd gone dim. And they weren't driven hard either, at
about 8mA.

LEDs can dim badly sometimes.


NT

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?

They don't. It's for the convenience of the installer.

Still doesn't /quite/ add up, they assume the installer is capable of
bypassing/removing an electronic ballast, yet they show a magnetic
ballast is to be retained?

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:07:43 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?

They don't. It's for the convenience of the installer.

Still doesn't /quite/ add up, they assume the installer is capable of
bypassing/removing an electronic ballast, yet they show a magnetic
ballast is to be retained?

It adds up if the installer is not a qualified electrician. I think
changing the tube and the starter is a job most of the population
could confidently carry out. By-passing the ballast in a workplace
environment I expect would need to be carried out by a competent
person. Likewise, for the domestic market 'plug and play' would be a
good selling point. Most people I know would not by-pass a ballast
(though personally I would give it a go - I assume a couple of
terminal blocks and a short length of cable of flex would be all that
is needed).

There is also an issue if you want to revert to fluorescent tubes.

Are all LED replacements powered at only one end? If so a very simple
modification is all that is needed.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:22:11 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:

Are all LED replacements powered at only one end? If so a very simple
modification is all that is needed.

I believe they are. I am sure the modification would be very simple.
But can it - in the days of regulations and Health and Safety - be
carried out by a person with no qualifications (such as me)?

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 2 March 2017 01:05:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness
for it's lifespan.

Interesting. I recently replaced some 5mm white LEDs lighting a panel
meter because they'd gone dim. And they weren't driven hard either, at
about 8mA.

LEDs can dim badly sometimes.


Yes - but seem to have got this reputation of working perfectly for ever.

--
*Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 2 March 2017 13:50:55 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 2 March 2017 01:05:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness
for it's lifespan.

Interesting. I recently replaced some 5mm white LEDs lighting a panel
meter because they'd gone dim. And they weren't driven hard either, at
about 8mA.

LEDs can dim badly sometimes.


Yes - but seem to have got this reputation of working perfectly for ever.

they don't of course.


NT

Scott wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Still doesn't /quite/ add up, they assume the installer is capable of
bypassing/removing an electronic ballast, yet they show a magnetic
ballast is to be retained?

It adds up if the installer is not a qualified electrician.

How?

I think changing the tube and the starter is a job most of the
population could confidently carry out.

Yes, the tube and dummy starter are easily replaced, without the use of
wirecutters or screwdrivers.

By-passing the ballast in a workplace environment I expect would need
to be carried out by a competent person.

So why do you think it adds up to expect a non-qualified person to
snip/alter wiring if it has an electronic ballast, but not if it has a
magnetic one?

There is also an issue if you want to revert to fluorescent tubes.

They come with a sticker telling some future person not to do that.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:13:05 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Scott wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Still doesn't /quite/ add up, they assume the installer is capable of
bypassing/removing an electronic ballast, yet they show a magnetic
ballast is to be retained?

It adds up if the installer is not a qualified electrician.

How?

As I sought to explain.

I think changing the tube and the starter is a job most of the
population could confidently carry out.

Yes, the tube and dummy starter are easily replaced, without the use of
wirecutters or screwdrivers.

I think you have answered your first question :-)

By-passing the ballast in a workplace environment I expect would need
to be carried out by a competent person.

So why do you think it adds up to expect a non-qualified person to
snip/alter wiring if it has an electronic ballast, but not if it has a
magnetic one?

I didn't say that, I said that the benefit of 'plug and play' [where
it can be implemented] is to make it easy for non-qualified persons to
replace the tube and ballast. I thought there were LED tubes
available for electronic ballasts (EM?) but don't have time to check
at the moment.

There is also an issue if you want to revert to fluorescent tubes.

They come with a sticker telling some future person not to do that.

Chicken and egg. My point was this could safely be overcome
if the ballast remains and the starter can be changed back.

On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:50:14 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Thursday, 2 March 2017 01:05:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Another advantage of the LED is that is will stay at full brightness
for it's lifespan.

Interesting. I recently replaced some 5mm white LEDs lighting a panel
meter because they'd gone dim. And they weren't driven hard either, at
about 8mA.

LEDs can dim badly sometimes.

Yes - but seem to have got this reputation of working perfectly for ever.

It must be so - I have the details somewhere on a 20-year-old CD!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Scott wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

How?

As I sought to explain.

Then we must be at cross-purposes.

I think changing the tube and the starter is a job most of the
population could confidently carry out.

Yes, the tube and dummy starter are easily replaced, without the use of
wirecutters or screwdrivers.

I think you have answered your first question :-)

But a starter is *NOT* a ballast!

I was querying why you thought a non qualified person could remove one
type of ballast, but not the other?

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Some (including the Philips?) ones seem to be designed to keep the
ballast, I can't understand why they'd want it in circuit?

They don't. It's for the convenience of the installer.

Still doesn't /quite/ add up, they assume the installer is capable of
bypassing/removing an electronic ballast, yet they show a magnetic ballast
is to be retained?

Nope, they're saying, badly, that the magnetic ballast can be
left if you want to but the electronic ballast shouldnt be.

On 02/03/2017 10:53, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-01, ARW wrote:
On 01/03/2017 15:51, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-01, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking Huge wrote :
Are these a "plug and play" replacement for a fluorescent tube? What do you
do about the (presumably no longer required) starters?

The kits include a replacement 'starter' which simply shorts the
contacts out.

Thank you.

I have now done the reading I should have done before asking the damn
stupid question.


There is another guide here that covers a little more

http://luceco.com/uk/tubes

just download the T8 LED Tubes installation and Operating Instructions

(I cannot find a direct link to the info)

http://luceco.com/public/downloads/i...structions.pdf


Ta, I'll use that a bit further up in the thread:-)


--
Adam

On 02/03/2017 13:22, DerbyBorn wrote:


Are all LED replacements powered at only one end? If so a very simple
modification is all that is needed.



No.

There are three types of tube available.

1. The one that uses the dummy starter. Now the driver might be at one
end of the tube but the other end of the tube is a short circuit.

2. "One end feed" tube. These have open circuit pins at the opposite end
to the driver.

3. "Opposite end feed" tubes. These usually have both pins at one side
of the tube to live and both pins at the other end of the tube to neutral.


1 is the most common retrofit tube available in the UK.
But there is a lot more info here

http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...ce-Guide-9.pdf



--
Adam

ARW wrote in
:

http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...45/Best-Practi
ce-Guide-9.pdf

Blimey - a minefield.

New and single application LED fittings must be the best way. Even
different type of caps.

On 02/03/2017 20:39, DerbyBorn wrote:
ARW wrote in
:

http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...45/Best-Practi
ce-Guide-9.pdf

Blimey - a minefield.

New and single application LED fittings must be the best way. Even
different type of caps.



TBH that link showed a lot more LED tube variations than I have ever seen.

The driver at one end with a short circuit at the other end, are as I
said, the most common LED replacement tubes I have come across.


eg these ones - from a link I found about 90 minutes ago:-)


http://luceco.com/public/downloads/i...structions.pdf
--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
...
The driver at one end with a short circuit at the other end, are as I
said, the most common LED replacement tubes I have come across.

It was news to me that fluorescent tubes were ever wired as anything other
than live and neutral at each end, so the filaments at both ends get power
to make them glow, and then once the tube strikes you get an arc from one
end to the other.

I'd never heard of LED equivalents of fluorescent tubes, but I think I'd
have expected them to be wired so they could plug into a fitting that had
live and neutral at each end; if the fitting needs to be rewired, then the
LED tube isn't exactly a *replacement* for a fluorescent tube.

On 02/03/2017 19:33, Huge wrote:
On 2017-03-02, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:22:11 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:

Are all LED replacements powered at only one end? If so a very simple
modification is all that is needed.

I believe they are.

Tubular "fluorescents"?

Some are, some aren't.



And which end of T9 would you power up?



--
Adam

On 01/03/2017 13:10, GB wrote:
I spotted LED panels and wondered whether these would be a substitute
for our worn out fluorescents in the kitchen? We just have an ordinary
ceiling - not a panelled ceiling. Can these be screwed to the ceiling
and look okay?

Curiously, the 50w panel has around the same lumens output as a 5ft
fluorescent tube (58w). I thought that LEDs are supposed to be much more
efficient?

It's this one he
http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-elec/pel0...0lm/dp/LP09656


I looked at these but it was for a 5m long room which currently has a
single centre light. I was suspicious that the beam angle of 120 degrees
would be insufficient and I would need multiple panels for reasonable
light coverage.

On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:47:19 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Scott wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

How?

As I sought to explain.

Then we must be at cross-purposes.

This could be the case.

I think changing the tube and the starter is a job most of the
population could confidently carry out.

Yes, the tube and dummy starter are easily replaced, without the use of
wirecutters or screwdrivers.

I think you have answered your first question :-)

But a starter is *NOT* a ballast!

I know. What I was suggesting was that a non-qualified person could
replace the starter but NOT short-circuit the ballast. If correct
(and I am interested to know whether it is) then the savings in not
having to employ an electrician could tip the balance in favour of
leaving the ballast intact.

I was querying why you thought a non qualified person could remove one
type of ballast, but not the other?

If I implied that, it was wholly unintentional as I don't really know
the difference between the two.

On Thursday, 2 March 2017 22:46:07 UTC, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:47:19 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

I was querying why you thought a non qualified person could remove one
type of ballast, but not the other?

If I implied that, it was wholly unintentional as I don't really know
the difference between the two.

They're very different animals. It's easy to make LEDs run on an iron ballast, but not so easy to make LEDs run on either type.


NT

In article ,
NY wrote:
It was news to me that fluorescent tubes were ever wired as anything
other than live and neutral at each end, so the filaments at both ends
get power to make them glow, and then once the tube strikes you get an
arc from one end to the other.

The small ones - like say in a 12v hand lamp or caravan light, may well
have the usual two pins at either end, but both pins paralleled.

A fluorescent tube can light with no connection at all in the presence of
a strong RF field.

--
*A bicycle can't stand alone because it's two tyred.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/03/17 21:19, NY wrote:
"ARW" wrote in message
...
The driver at one end with a short circuit at the other end, are as I
said, the most common LED replacement tubes I have come across.

It was news to me that fluorescent tubes were ever wired as anything
other than live and neutral at each end, so the filaments at both ends
get power to make them glow, and then once the tube strikes you get an
arc from one end to the other.


Well they have never been wired that way of course.

Live at one end, neutral at the other. Otherwise how could you get a
voltage across them?


I'd never heard of LED equivalents of fluorescent tubes, but I think I'd
have expected them to be wired so they could plug into a fitting that
had live and neutral at each end; if the fitting needs to be rewired,
then the LED tube isn't exactly a *replacement* for a fluorescent tube.

Oh dear.

Perhaps a simple diagram will clear up your confusion

http://cdn.wellnessarticles.net/2016...75db706790.jpg


--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"