On Saturday, 11 March 2017 17:07:26 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:21:54 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 9 March 2017 20:31:57 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 07:02:42 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:




Most parts actually less than 10% I'd say.

You haven't seen a MendelMax 1.5 then have you

Seen one very similar my mates brother had one took up the spare room and amonst other reasons that's why his wife left him, but I'll admit to prefering to have the printer than his wife.

(And I am talking of
the whole 'RepRap' principal here remember?). I'll take a picture of
all the (plastic) parts for you so you can understand better.

I bet you could print the plastic parts for an aircraft too.

No need to bet, you can.

but not the whole aircraft.
Unless you're talking of christmas cracker toys.


But that doesn't meen you can 3D print an aeroplane does it.

Erm, yes, it does.

Not to those that build aeroplanes.
Or are you talking about toys.


I also printed out my friends name on our 3D compared it to what was done on a similar printer to the one above and my friend said our 3D printer did a better job.

Feck!

Arse, girls usually follows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e9Y023-mnc


The printer yuo mentioned has a bit difertn use to ours it was for larger scale 'fabrication' and could only use one type of plastic ours could use two types and two reels at the same time.

Just size and dual extruders ... nothing more exciting (or different).

SO what made yuo buy that rather than a replicator or other printer.
Mpst people would think about what they needed before buyiong a printer.


So if I wanted one I'd choose ours not the one you've chosen.

And you was how much again?

around £2K I think.



But I like the 3D printer that printed a bridge.
http://mx3d.com/projects/bridge/
it's on my xmas list ;-)

Shrug, it's 'just' a 3D printer?

Can yours do what that one can ?

Or is it you can't tell the differnce between differnt printers. ?


And even then the parts that you can produce on it are likely to be more expensive than buying a spare part.

Had you been able to get the parts any other way you mean?

Sometimes DIY requires you to find alternatives.

Bingo. Out of the darkness we see tiny glimpses of understanding. ;-)

But I doubt a very good 3 pin plug with a IEC cablr could be produced.

I can buy them for just over a quid no pint in spending hours 3D printering one.




I guess but perhasp glueing it back together will be quicker and cheaper..

It could well be, subject to finding the right solvent / adhesive for
the plastic.

Superglue seems OK.




I'm guessing there is NO WAY you would ever get why people might tie
their own fishing flies or make their own pens or jewellery eh, when
all those can just be just bought?

It's rarely to save time or money.



Why go fishing when you can just buy fish in the fish shop ...

you can spend the whole day doing very little without the nagging wife
telling you to mow the lawn or take the rubbish out.

R i g h t ... so, why can't that also apply to 3D printing?

I can't and niether can we at univ.
You might have got a 3D printer so you don't have to talking to the misses but that's not the sort of criteria we could get away with here.
We have to submit a proposal and I don't think any lecturer here could get away with saying I brought the 3D printer so I can come here rathe rthan stay at home with the wife.



build furniture yourself when you can just buy it from Ikea?

I built a table from ikea for £7.99 ready made in shops couldn't find one for under £30.

What's that dave, doing some of the assembly yourself meant that you
got what you wanted *and* it was cheaper but you had to get involved
and actually assemble it yourself?

Yep because there was a good reason for doing so.
It was cheaper than buying the wood and a lathe and making it myself.
I didn't do that for the TV.
I bet you 3D printed your TV, well done.


Whatever next ... some nutjob will
probably want to make their furniture from scratch or (and this will
sound real mad), cut down the tree themselves ....

Did you see the 'artist' that is growing chairs for about £800 each.
fine for some but not me.



Maybe I should have brought a lathe to make my own.

Maybe? That depends on your goals, skills, timescale's and interests.
Many people would though, yes.

Not that many have a home lathe.


I'm betting you use electricity that yuo donlt make yourself why don't you generate yuo're own some people do.

Why should I

Because it's cheaper or DIY or because it interests you or to say the enviroment

and what does that have to do with anything?

Everything


Harry says it's cheaper to to use electricity from re-newable sources why don't you do it too.

Because harry is talking Boll0x.

Ah something we agree on.


And I think yours must be pedal powered or something as we just load
the file into the printer,

Our 'files' were mostly created/designed from scratch only test files were downloaded.



Who on earth would waste their time doing that when you can just buy
stuff?

If for use when they can't get things from other sources which is why we wont allow them to 3D print boxes that can be brought.
If a studetn wanted a cog with 39 teeth and 27.5mm diameter then that's when the 3D printer was most useful.
When they wanted a servo to fit snuggly into a support beam again the 3D printer was useful.



Do you think we should hand out a degree for printing such a thing ?

If you could actually get any of this kit to work (like you are
probably supposed to), you should get one yes! ;-)

Worked ok provided you didn't try to exceed the limits of the printer.
But it has a much to do with electroincs/computers as frying fish has.


That three has been a lot of discarded 'printouts' for many reasons, not all were worked out in fact few were.

Just OOI, what part of the 'prototyping' stage don't you understand?

The part where yuo use teh prototype as the end product.

Oh (something else you don't understand). Pretty standard practice in
all sorts of worlds. There are many 'prototypes' still out there being
used every day.

Then it's not realy a prototype then is it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype
A prototype is an early sample, model, or release of a product built to test a concept or process or to act as a thing to be replicated or learned from.

I remmeber seeing the probe 1 a prototype of the first protoytype for teh new (at the time ford Sierra)
When the Ford Sierra it didnlt look much like probe 1



The same way we use our PCB machine, we design the protoytpe then when it working

So that's never actually happened right?

Has plenty of times last being the weekend just gone, yes my lab was open and being used on saturday.



we sent the job out as it;s cheaper than doing multiple copies ourselves cheaper and more relible too.

No, really! Who on earth would use a mass producer to make quantities
over anything over using a prototype / small production run machine to
do the same.

New you'd fail to understand.




Why would I do that .... I wanted to play with Lego as a kid, not make
the brinks. Now I want to make parts for myself to use,

That's why you have a 3D printer but realistically you need the one that prints with silicone and cost 10k Euros and then you have to get somneone to insert the hair otherwsie why not use a knot hole in a plank or wood like tarzan did, when cheeta wasn't up for it.



I'd rather print_and_finish (if required) than make certain things
from scratch .... but then I know how to use a 3D printer. ;-)

Maybe that's the key.

I think I've been saying that

SO a surgeon comes to yuo asking for a replacemnt for a piece of hip

WTF would they do that!

Pretty much what happened here with our school of medical sciences when they heard we brought a 3D printer. We had to explain that our one wasn't up to the jobs they were imagining and this is why we were/are thinking of pulling resources to nget ONE £250K 3D printer.
But we also know we'll need someone to looking after it.
This is also why surgeons have staff.
This is also why if you brought a F1 racing car the chances of you winning the grand prix would be small you'd be better off hiring Lewis Hamilton.
Or do uo realy think buying such a car turns you into a racing driver.



If someone hits you and knocks a tooth out, sure 3D print your own why not ?

If the plastic is suitable for that, why not?

you gonna stick it on place with blu-tak ;-)

Presently they dont use plastic to make teeth I wonder why but if you say you can maybe all the dentists are wrong.
I've been quoted £600 to replace my capped tooth ar eyou sayign a few quids worth of plastic is the answer.




(of you and your typical users) all
along. You would all be better off choosing one plastic box design for
an injection molding machine and taking it in turns to press the
button. ;-)

Better to buy one ready made, as we tell the students to do.

Assuming such exists of course ...

Normally it is.

and I *know* it often doesn't and
why I have designed and printed many boxes for many products).

and why we don't and why most don't.







But how many know how to use them before they buy them.

I didn't, that for sure ...

because it didn't matter did it.

No, because I was able to learn and make it work (unlike you and your
students it seems).

we haven't the time you can't expect 30+ studetns all, to share a 3D printer that takes hours, and they have to learn the software, which isn't part of their course.



but then that probably accounts for many
of the things that people take up that *can* have useful output
(baking, wood / metal turning, chainsaw carving, pottery, ceramics,
glass working etc ...).

but not all end up expecting a career from it that is the key.

Who on earth is talking about getting a career in 3D printing (even
though I'm sure such exist, even if only for prototyping).

They are here for electronics, it;s like asking you to design a box for the raspberry pi but first you have to write a program.
If the students project is Real-time tracking of moving objects yuo donlt expect him to spend ANY time designing the box to put it in.

Steve Jobs DID NOT design the case for the first iMac.
Do you think he also designed the boxes they came in .

I bet you didn't write the program you use with the 3D prinbter did you, no that is someone elses job.




For you, that sounds like the perfect match! Ask him if he wants to
swap the printers for some (more) drink or drugs? ;-)

we've said he can use ours to make replacement parts of whatever we haven't seen him since.

Sounds like you made a good impression. ;-(

I"ve yet to see him.


Can you print a replacement head for us ?

For him?

No for our 3D printer.



He said he can't but oif a screw or two had broken or a side panel cracked.....

OK, I rebuilt / re-designed the extruder on our printer by making a
longer stainless part (on my lathe)

we don't have a lathe in the lab and without training no one else unless trained is allowed to use the lathes.

that joins the hot end to the
extruder (thermal break). Being longer it can better deal with the
temperature differential between the hot end (~200 Deg C) and the
direct drive extruder (room temperature). It had to first be drilled
though ~2mm (to take the 1.7mm Dia filament) and then partly
counterbored to 4mm or so to take the PTFE liner. Since making that
mod we have had very few issues with that area.

So you brought a 3D printer that didn't work properly now that's a good idea.



What? I was talking about the existence and the difference between
luck and skill / ability. The only reason you could get any machine to
work would be luck. Many other people get there using skill.

How long does it take to get this skill, ?
10, 20 mins ? maybe a whole day.


Have you printed that penny I'm pretty sure it won't be legal tender

No, really (but there is noting preventing the use of such becoming
so).

of course not :- , but what sort of mug would use such a thing ?
Why not adapt your printer to print the new £5 notes.

And how much do you think it would cost you to print a 1p coin in plastic I would have thought more than 1p.
Or is it that you don't allow for materials, time, power, maintancae etc.







to use as a penny

It could be used 'as a penny', but not as a UK legal tender penny, no.

Why not 'change' all that must cost a 'mint' to make all those 1p coins why not let people print their own ?



and I bet it took you longer to print and cost more than a penny.

Longer to print than it took to press you mean, I would hope it did
but no, I doubt it did cost more than a penny to print.

Yeah sure.



http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:21490

Well done but not that impressive .

It wasn't meant to be impressive Dave?

At least you succeed there.

So you wouldn't award and engineering degree to someone that downloaded and printed it then. Niether would we.


You did NOT design it, if you had it would be more impressive.

See above. It was about wanting a solution (that happened to be for a
3d printer) then printing it on a 3d printer, there and then).

That is not what we want our studetns to do to get a degree i.e printout someone elses work we call that plagerism unless they admit to it.
I doubt those on the bake off would win anything if they just presented mr kilpings cakes.

This is the point you keep missing.




As I say to the students sure spend a week designing a box then print it but you won't get very good marks for electroic engineers when you've spend a week designing a box when you could have got a similar thing in poundland !

If you actually could of course (and you can't).

Doesn't matter they ahve their projects specs.


However (and playing along with your totally confused and twisted
'logic' here), it may be that if they did design and print a neat box,
their skills might be more 3D design that electronics.

So they are on the wrong course then, if they sit their scratching their arse we can't award them a degree in electronic engineering or that of a proctologist.



Depending on the scale of what you are printing, PLA ... and ABS can
be chemically smoothed.

We know we've done it, but we don't hand out degrees to people dunking plastic in a chemical.

No? I don't know what's left for you to justify handing them out then?

of cours enot because you tbink going to a website and downloading something is original though or concept.




someoen built and designed their own computer.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...o-play-tetris/

I don't see many others copying him or him selling his design to Apple or even MS, Nokia might be intrested.

The problem as I see it with you Dave ... is you are totally and
utterly confused about the *point* of most things?

I know the point the pojunt is that there IS NO point in the student learning how to do dovetail joints when he wants a degree in electronic engineering.
He won't get any marks for it.


You come out with
'thoughts' that only you seem to think .... like 'Why I haven't
printed the next Mars rocket on my 'home printer' and the different
between so9mething someone might do for fun,

The students arenlt a univ. for fun or rather they shouldn't be.
If they want to design a box for fun then great but they can't tie up our 3D printer for hours while doing so, they shouldn't be spending hours on it at least until.
You shouldnlt employ a person based on the quality of the suite they wear wether I know it's done and how the school tie works.




A good workman wouldn't choose bad tools that is the point too.

It is indeed ... and you say you didn't have a say in getting that 3D
printer?

No other than in some cases finding the best supplier.
I leave that to those that have used a 3D printer or those that have researched the area for what they want.
A 3D printer is NOT classed as an electronic engineering item any more than any other printer is. If they want a PSU chosen or a function generator or other equpiemtn that is whn I'm asked.
I'm not aksed about what they are serving in the canteen either or what gym equipment to buy.




Same with the lasre cutter the ammount of times it's out of action because someone used it for cutting MDF or some plastics last time it cost a few grand to repair.

Nice.

Because of this we now have 2 laser cutters all the studentn ask to use them when they know we have them.

Because they want to break them ...

NO they want to cut bits of wood and plastic to make boxes and the like.

to make them match the 3D printer
and probably everything else there?

Not in my lab unless it;s out of hours, it is rather strange that the 3D printer always seemed to be working 9-5 but not the following morning, the lab is open from 9-6 and last saturday but I'm not here on those days/time so can't keep an eye on things.



So that would be like using a panel saw to cut concrete ... or a
hammer to cut glass?

No nothing like it,

It sounds exactly like it!

No as it does actually work unlike using a hammer to cut glass.
You cut plastic, wood, paper on a laser cutetr and it works fine but you still need to kn ow how to set the softeare up for it, it's not like using a junior hacksaw or bandsaw.


it's only after a dozen or so doing this that it was found to cover the lenses with gunk and causing problems with unrelaible cuts interminant rastering.

So it doesn't,'actually work then does it ...

Yes it does but requires much more maintance and cleaning than expected which is quite differnt from previous methods such as a bandsaw.



like you might get away
kerbing your car tyre a few times... till you don't ... but no one
would ever say it was 'a good idea' and it was 'working'.

Plenty do it.


Here's what one of the users the laser cutter was put to.
http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/arduinitar.html

Hmmm, yes, I can see how the requirements for the body required
something as specialised as a laser cutter ...

It produced the letter/legends too.
On the plastic and the wood depending on the thickness or colour or the lines produced in inkscape or whatever was used.
How long would if have taken you to 3D print them.
The necks are plastic, I bet cuttign them out was faster and better quality than your 3D printer could do.



"Finally, find some solid cardboard, wood or plastic to make the
instrument itself!"

That's how the prototype was done with corrigated card from a packing box.


Did they get a degree for copying an existing idea (slide guitar)

this wasn;t a student project, it was an excersise in getting studetn engagmnet
in electronics a bit like gocat racing might get a kid envoleved in high end motor sport.

using a production microcontroller and IC's? (I'm not knocking their
efforts btw).

That was the idea we've 'sold' it to rapid electroincs and they were/are going to produce it as a kit of parts for schools to build themselves.
We;d be prety stupid if we were spending thousands on producing a new microprocessor or dedicated components it;s was meant to be pretty much off the shelf stuff.
The idea behind it wasn't to produce a product but to get kids interested in electronics hardware, they swap wires on the breadboard push switches and have fun it's for 8-15 year-olds
We also have a bass guitar and a research students project is doing a bagpipe version (he's scottish, other than toss a caber what else woukd he do)
another was doing a violin version using light choppers rescued from an old Mac mouse.


We decicde to make the controls got up to 11 NOt one student got the 'joke' not a single one !

Maybe because they are young?

Yep we worked that out, few of the academics got it either.



But who read that wehn they wanted their wood cut it worked the week before and has worked in the past.

Lucky I guess.

No it;s about accumalion of crap as the glue in the MDF gets vapourised and gets depositied on the lenses used for focusing the laser.

So, poor design of cutter or inappropriate material being used ... or
are you saying this is just another machine that needs some routine
maintenance?

Yes and yes, and it's why it's locked in a room now so not anyone can go up and use it. We also have two now. One for general purpose and anotherfor more exacting requirements just like you should do with any tool.

Unlike you were have difernt tools that are best at their own job.
Just likke PCB drills and SDS drills have difertn uses, best to keep each to their own use if you want them to do a good job and last.




Like a dirty pair of specs you can ignore it for a while but in the end yuo reallty have to gob on them and used a dirty rag to clean them ;-)

Yup ... like getting your 3D printer working properly ... it just
needs a bit of skilled attention.

Or less of teh unskilled which is the problem with studetns and even staff as we need to be trained or have time to develope those skills whcih luckily for you had had a birth it seems.

Yup. That seems to be the way things are these days. ;-(

Yep but a 3D printer or two and we can replace workshop techs.

I wonder why they said that ... weg

Admin staff are sexieir much more likely to make tea for you and you get brownie points for employing women.


we can print ANYTHING :-)

Yes, you can print anything within the capabilities of the printer and
it's operator.

It's operator, you're refering to 20-60 students and their mates.


You want 0.1mm accuracy , well it will do it but you MUST use virtually knew bits.

Clean kit works better at those resolutions, yes.

which makes things more expensive than first thought couple of quid plus those bits.

All the same price mate (for our printer anyway) .2 or 1 mm (can't say
I've looked for .1mm).

It's a drill bit size and router bit.
Our CBNC takes 10 bits at a time sorting out which it needs for a particual hole or cut.



and the vacuum pump neede to be the high grade densists type that cost 5k grand !

What vacuum pump?

The one that holds the circuit board down while the CNC does it's stuff.
ours is the VTS250D
http://www.bambi-air.co.uk/products/...ir-compressors

do you think you hold these boards with masking tape or with your finger.



the CNC was about 10k

That sounds more realistic.



But you could get some reasonable boards using a cat litter tray and ferric chloride I know I have, had to remove the cat first though.
But it can replace what we have.

Exactly ... and if you *enjoy* that sort of thing or don't have loads
of cash to lay out ..

But we can't do the boards we do now using cat litter trays system.



How could I it wasn't my decision to buy them they didn;t ask me what I thought they didnlt even tell use waht they wanted to print it was mor ewe need to put we have a 3D printer on the prospetus.

Ah, now the picture is getting clearer ...

Wow really.

because *you * weren't
involved in the inception and *you* don't know how to make it work
properly,

Why would I.

*you* have a downer on them all. Mate, we (those who like or
use them) don't GAF what you think about them (as we know the truth).
;-)

The truth of what.


And our 3d printer can not print replacement bones for the medical centre

And is that what the salesman said it could do?

No salemans that what that department suggested when someone told them we had a 3D printer, they;d heard all about them on the news and what they could do.

And he is right ... they can (and do) print body parts on 3D printers.



But not on a £2k one. The one that does there's a special training courses you can go on for a couple of grand, send me on that then I'll have thje ability to look after it, if not I wonlt be able too.

It's like when I started in the microprocessor development lab they sent me on the BBC/acron computer repair course as my job including repairing BBC computers for 3 days, same with the Apple course.
Same as any job yuo want to be a bus or train driver yuo go on a course they don;lt say well they got froward and reverse left and right what more do you need to kn ow it's your job now.

On Saturday, 11 March 2017 21:04:17 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 19:41:13 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 11/03/2017 17:07, T i m wrote:
8

Here's what one of the users the laser cutter was put to.
http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~andrewm/arduinitar.html


Did they download the code and the design for that?
How does that differ from downloading and printing something from
thingiverse?


It doesn't of course,

it does quite a bit.


but dave loves laser cutters (because someone
else comes in to maintain them) and hates 3D printers (because they
don't). ;-)

I leave them both to someone else, just like I leave the sweeping of the floors
and why the admin staff have a person employed as a tea lady who they put on the technical staff list so it increases the number technical staff we have and why they sent her on the course advised by the manufactuer of our all signing.dancing tea/coffee machine.

Why does a person need to go on a course to learn how to make tea & coffee ?
Is it that complicated.
It's not for me.

Cheers, T i m