Having a quick nosey, I noticed that we seem to be importing 0.73 GW from
Holland and exporting 0.72 GW to France.

This does make me wonder why the French don't just take it directly from
the Dutch.

Unless, of course, there is a beneficial pricing arrangement where the UK
as the wholesaler makes money on the transaction but is still cheaper than
buying direct from the supplier/manufacturer.

Although I am quite prepared to believe that lack of logic prevails and we
are making a loss on the deal.

Cheers


Dave R


--
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---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 23 Jan 2017 11:44:30 GMT, David wrote:

Having a quick nosey, I noticed that we seem to be importing 0.73 GW from
Holland and exporting 0.72 GW to France.

This does make me wonder why the French don't just take it directly from
the Dutch.

The Belgians would nick it on the way, or more seriously would who
ever runs their grid charge more for transferring it than we do.

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.
http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...icleid=1607388

This would then be connected in to existing grid infrastructure which
is now partly underused since Fawley Power Station closed.

G.Harman

wrote:

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area

Yes, when the current France-UK link near Dover broke over the winter,
some of the news sites picked up the map for the new proposed one and
showed that by mistake.

On 23 Jan 2017 11:44:30 GMT, David wrote:

Having a quick nosey, I noticed that we seem to be importing 0.73 GW from
Holland and exporting 0.72 GW to France.

This does make me wonder why the French don't just take it directly from
the Dutch.

Unless, of course, there is a beneficial pricing arrangement where the UK
as the wholesaler makes money on the transaction but is still cheaper than
buying direct from the supplier/manufacturer.

Although I am quite prepared to believe that lack of logic prevails and we
are making a loss on the deal.

The UK will not be losing out in any transfer.

The DC interconnectors operate on a system operator to system operator basis and
a traded defined capacity auction basis where the capacity released for trading
is effectively being determined by the system operators.

There are limits on what particular cable and overhead circuits can handle. If
the transfer capability across the Dutch-French border is thermally or stability
limited then a transfer via the UK would not be out of the question. There are
use of system charges that will need to be paid but if the energy is needed and
there are no other options then that is the route it will flow.

All transfer quantities across the DC links are by design and action deliberate.
Changes in generation or demand on the AC system here, or in France, Ireland or
the Netherlands is not reflected in changes in interconnector transfer levels.

--

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:34:37 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:


The DC interconnectors operate on a system operator to system operator basis and
a traded defined capacity auction basis where the capacity released for trading
is effectively being determined by the system operators.

There are limits on what particular cable and overhead circuits can handle. If
the transfer capability across the Dutch-French border is thermally or stability
limited then a transfer via the UK would not be out of the question.
Especially as the only French-Dutch Border is on on the Caribbean
Island of Saint Martin.
Those would be long links.


G.Harman

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 14:06:52 +0000, wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:34:37 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:


The DC interconnectors operate on a system operator to system operator basis and
a traded defined capacity auction basis where the capacity released for trading
is effectively being determined by the system operators.

There are limits on what particular cable and overhead circuits can handle. If
the transfer capability across the Dutch-French border is thermally or stability
limited then a transfer via the UK would not be out of the question.
Especially as the only French-Dutch Border is on on the Caribbean
Island of Saint Martin.
Those would be long links.

Well call it Belgium then FFS.
--

On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.
--

In article , David
wrote:
Having a quick nosey, I noticed that we seem to be importing 0.73 GW from
Holland and exporting 0.72 GW to France.

This does make me wonder why the French don't just take it directly from
the Dutch.

Therre' need to be an interconnect by passing Belgium for that to happen,

Unless, of course, there is a beneficial pricing arrangement where the UK
as the wholesaler makes money on the transaction but is still cheaper
than buying direct from the supplier/manufacturer.

Although I am quite prepared to believe that lack of logic prevails and
we are making a loss on the deal.

Cheers


Dave R

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the
boiling point of water.

I don't believe that. If that was so, you'd see that when it starts
to rain and I can't say I have ever seen any overhead doing that.

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.


How hot JOOI?...

--
Tony Sayer

On 1/24/2017 6:51 PM, tony sayer wrote:
In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.


How hot JOOI?...

Whilst I don't know the answer, I remember being told on a CEGB course
that transmission wires have significantly more capacity in cold weather
than hot: one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

newshound wrote:

Whilst I don't know the answer, I remember being told on a CEGB course
that transmission wires have significantly more capacity in cold weather
than hot: one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

I heard in a lecture about their approach to the need for greater
capacity in a particular overhead line receiving wind farm
output. They were able to make better use of the line capacity by
monitoring and modeling actual conductor temperature.

It was of significant help that wind farm output was greatest
when the wind was perpendicular to the line and thus gave
greatest cooling.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 25/01/17 08:35, Martin Brown wrote:
On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

why would they not be alive?

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

En el artículo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On 25/01/17 11:02, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-25, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.

Many years ago on a walk in the country, we passed through a spinney under
the centre of some Grid lines. You could hear quite significant corona
discharge(?). We hurried away.


How pathetic. I've lived in places like that



--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

On 25/01/2017 08:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/17 08:35, Martin Brown wrote:
On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

why would they not be alive?

They typically hit the thin lines at full flight speed and break wings
crashing to the ground where buzzards, foxes and the like see them off.
It must be a weakness in seagull flocking behaviour or vision - they
don't seem to see the thin HT wires at all.

The ones left hanging by a wing on the wires suffer for a long time.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wednesday, 25 January 2017 12:56:01 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:
On 25/01/2017 08:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/01/17 08:35, Martin Brown wrote:
On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

why would they not be alive?

They typically hit the thin lines at full flight speed and break wings
crashing to the ground where buzzards, foxes and the like see them off.
It must be a weakness in seagull flocking behaviour or vision - they
don't seem to see the thin HT wires at all.

The ones left hanging by a wing on the wires suffer for a long time.

I've seen a similar thing happen in Brighton with telegraph wires and trainers it's so sad.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/whisky...7594432291810/



--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 18:51:04 +0000, tony sayer wrote:

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.


How hot JOOI?...

Top rated in the UK is capable of 170 deg C continuous, many are 90 deg C with
short term 30 minute ratings in the region of 125 deg C.

There are conductors outside the UK rated up to 2.8kA capable of continuous
operation at around 210 deg C with short term up to 240 deg C

--

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 08:35:49 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

The high temperature conductors are utilised at transmission system level not
distribution. I can't recall seeing birds perched on anything rated above 33kV

--

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 08:42:17 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.

Because they are designed and erected with the right amount of sag such that
under their maximum permissible current carrying capacity in the highest ambient
conditions they will not even come close to infinging the safety distance, which
is considerably more than would be needed to initiate an arc.
--

On 1/25/2017 11:02 AM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-25, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.

Many years ago on a walk in the country, we passed through a spinney under
the centre of some Grid lines. You could hear quite significant corona
discharge(?). We hurried away.


You can often hear corona discharges, especially in damp weather and at
coastal sites (salt deposition leads to tracking across insulators).
Vegetation clearance is monitored at least annually, IIRC.

Back in the 1970's, the CEGB was very interested in what were then
called Expert Systems, what we now tend to call artificial intelligence
software, and a number of prototypes were developed. The only one which
was successful was one to predict the best use of herbicide, to prevent
encroachment on transmission lines. It sounds mundane, but good
management of this is very cost-effective.

On 1/25/2017 8:35 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 23/01/2017 16:24, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:

Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible connection
from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area which has been
bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the
boiling point of water.

I can believe that they run warm but how can birds sit on them for so
long if they are at that sort of temperature?

Birds seem to like the cables round here on frosty mornings which tends
to suggest they are warm. Only snag is when a flock of seagulls crash
into the horizontal 11kV lines and end up hanging there still alive.

You don't see them on supergrid lines, IME. I think we were really
talking about 400 and 275 kV lines which can run close to their limits.

In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 13:17:35 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 18:51:04 +0000, tony sayer wrote:

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible
connection from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area
which has been bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated considerably
above the boiling point of water.


How hot JOOI?...

Top rated in the UK is capable of 170 deg C continuous, many are 90 deg
C with short term 30 minute ratings in the region of 125 deg C.

There are conductors outside the UK rated up to 2.8kA capable of
continuous operation at around 210 deg C with short term up to 240 deg C

A new slant on the phrase 'district heating'! In lighter moments, I do
wonder if all this global warming isn't a consequence, not of the CO2
itself, but of all the energy being released in the generation of that
CO2. It all ends up as heat, after all, and as the world has become
increasingly industrialised over the decades and centuries, we've been
releasing more and more of it; heat, that is.

some time ago - could be as long ago as 50 years - someone had the bright
ide of breinging grid cable into central London on the be d of the Grand
Union Canal. It was found to heat up the water significantly giving rise
to an enormous amount of algae.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

En el artículo , Martin Brown |||newspam|
escribió:

they
don't seem to see the thin HT wires at all.

presumably that's why some of them have brightly-coloured marker balls
(oo-er missus) attached at intervals.

http://www.aplic.org/Collisions.php

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 14:27:20 +0000, charles wrote:

In article , Chris Hogg
wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 13:17:35 +0000, The Other Mike
wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2017 18:51:04 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , The Other
Mike scribeth thus
On Mon, 23 Jan 2017 13:45:31 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
writes:
Bit on the Local radio here this morning about the possible
connection from France to the UK terminating in the Gosport area
which has been bubbling away quietly for a year or so.

Didn't know that ran that hot...

Cables don't but modern overheads are regularly operated
considerably above the boiling point of water.


How hot JOOI?...

Top rated in the UK is capable of 170 deg C continuous, many are 90
deg C with short term 30 minute ratings in the region of 125 deg C.

There are conductors outside the UK rated up to 2.8kA capable of
continuous operation at around 210 deg C with short term up to 240 deg
C

A new slant on the phrase 'district heating'! In lighter moments, I do
wonder if all this global warming isn't a consequence, not of the CO2
itself, but of all the energy being released in the generation of that
CO2. It all ends up as heat, after all, and as the world has become
increasingly industrialised over the decades and centuries, we've been
releasing more and more of it; heat, that is.

some time ago - could be as long ago as 50 years - someone had the
bright ide of breinging grid cable into central London on the be d of
the Grand Union Canal. It was found to heat up the water significantly
giving rise to an enormous amount of algae.

I was walking the towpath near Regents' Park back in April 1997, and had
to abort the walk because they were digging up the towpath for grid cable.

I went up Primrose Hill instead.


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article , Mike Tomlinson
scribeth thus
En el artículo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.


There is one near the Burwell maim substation near Newmarket where down
a farm track we used to be able to pull sparks some 2 inches long from a
rod a well insulated one mind, held around 8 foot high, large ish sparks
too in wet weather;!..
--
Tony Sayer

In article , The Other Mike
scribeth thus
On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 08:42:17 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo ,
newshound escribió:

one of their limits is the amount of "sag" caused by thermal
expansion.

Some of them so seem to sag close to the ground; I often wonder why they
don't arc over, especially in rain.

Because they are designed and erected with the right amount of sag such that
under their maximum permissible current carrying capacity in the highest ambient
conditions they will not even come close to infinging the safety distance, which
is considerably more than would be needed to initiate an arc.

In fact it's on the NatGrid website clearance distances from 132 and
400 kV lines under varied circumstances one of them wasn't that much
IIRC!..
--
Tony Sayer

On 25/01/2017 11:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Many years ago on a walk in the country, we passed through a spinney
under
the centre of some Grid lines. You could hear quite significant corona
discharge(?). We hurried away.


How pathetic. I've lived in places like that




I have been in a thunderstorm where the rain drops were bursting with
little blue lights as they landed.
I moved away fairly quickly.

On 25/01/2017 14:08, Chris Hogg wrote:

A new slant on the phrase 'district heating'! In lighter moments, I do
wonder if all this global warming isn't a consequence, not of the CO2
itself, but of all the energy being released in the generation of that
CO2. It all ends up as heat, after all, and as the world has become
increasingly industrialised over the decades and centuries, we've been
releasing more and more of it; heat, that is.


That's the heat island effect.
It probably is the cause of the heating being monitored to a large extent.
However they have now corrected for it and still claim there is a lot of
warming.
There are debates about what the corrections are and whether they are
correct.