On 22/01/2017 22:32, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2017-01-22, pamela wrote:
On 22:11 22 Jan 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

[40 lines snipped]

Why here? Well I for one enjoy a good rant :-)

How is it that people with such a keen interest in this topic all
came here to uk.d-i-y to discuss it?


As others have said, usenet is dying, this is one of the few active
groups not dominated by trolls.

Because there are lots of people here who can read, write and count
on their fingers?

I think that's probably fair. And there are too many yo-yos on Twitter
and FB to make attempting to discuss it there worthwhile.

And usenet threads a conversation properly, regardless of length.

On 23/01/2017 14:53, pamela wrote:

Why not also discuss sustainability of marine species or the
accumulation of ocean waste? Perhaps proliferation of nuclear
weapons? Deforestation? What about dangerous space junk? Or
genetically modified foods?


If you want to ask a question about them then there will be someone that
has an answer.

En el artículo , pamela
escribió:

I don't mind the discussion at all but I'm intrigued why so many
people here find this particualr topic so interesting. Perhaps
it's a coincidence of backgrounds, interests, current news, etc.

I think it is probably that.

I also think most of the regular posters, excluding the obvious trolls,
here show a higher level of intelligence than is evident in many groups
/creep

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

pamela submitted this idea :
On 15:09 21 Jan 2017, David wrote:

Can't connect at the moment; has it been shut down to conserve
power?


I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation but
I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those dials?

Genuine question.

I see power genration discussed here and sometimes there are
fierce debates but why the very keen interest ion the first place and
why here?

So we know just before the lights go out, that the lights are going out
and to get our home genny warmed up and ready .

pamela formulated on Sunday :
Is observing electric power output & consumption connected with the
global warming debates which goes on here (which I don't read)?

Some, yes. Basically many of us beleive that too much money is being
spent on expensive renewables like wind power, with little return for
the money. They only work when the wind blows and mostly it doesn't, so
other forms of energy generation has to be there to produce when
needed. Bascally we pay twice.

Andrew Gabriel laid this down on his screen :
In article ,
pamela writes:
Thanks for the explanation. I take it the majority of contibutors
to the debates about this in uk.d-i-y are climate sceptics or is
there strong environmentalist representation?

A lot of the people here have science/engineering backgrounds.
That doesn't map to agreement or disagreement on made-made global
warming (there are different views), but it does map to significant
agreement that most environmentalists are clueless about viable
renewable energy generation. Some of this is obvious if you look
at gridwatch.

If there was an environmental organisation that based its
policies on sound science and economics, I'd join it like a shot.

Unfortunately, these organisations attract people who don't
understand either science or economics. That's not just benign -
it results in real harm in the form of unnecessary costs, fuel
poverty deaths, and exporting businesses which were essential for
the economic success of the country and providing jobs. It will
in all probably also result in the lights going out in the next
few years (and that has enormous implications for industry's
economic viability, and peoples' safety). Much of this is directly
due to the misguided activities of environmental organisations
pushing the wrong policies. If they understood the science and
economics, they could actually push for environmental policies
which worked.

Very well put sir!

Tim Watts formulated on Sunday :
Yes. In particular the hopeless shift to attempt to use wind generation,
which a quick look at the graphs will tell you is uselessly unpredictable.

The cost per wind generator is massive, they have a very limited
working life, maintenance costs are likewise high and manufacturer of
them is far from green. Their output not not reliable, so we have to
have more conventional backup plant for when there is no wind. So
green, they are not, even if they worked - mostly they don't work, but
then plenty of companies make a good income from making, installing and
maintaining them!

Harry Bloomfield wrote
pamela wrote

Is observing electric power output & consumption connected with the
global warming debates which goes on here (which I don't read)?

Some, yes. Basically many of us beleive that too much money
is being spent on expensive renewables like wind power, with
little return for the money. They only work when the wind blows
and mostly it doesn't, so other forms of energy generation has
to be there to produce when needed. Bascally we pay twice.

And can make the grid very unstable, as has been seen recently in
South Australia. Remains to be seen if that is a fixable problem yet.

Tim Watts wrote:

pamela wrote:

I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation but
I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those dials?

It's interesting to see if the lights are going out soon...

We should stop worrying, apparently ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38791572

The sums don't add up, if the winter standby capacity is going to cost
£2-3b/year, then 24m households, paying an extra £7/year each is only £168m.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 08:23:06 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

pamela wrote:

I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation but
I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those dials?

It's interesting to see if the lights are going out soon...

We should stop worrying, apparently ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38791572

The sums don't add up, if the winter standby capacity is going to cost
£2-3b/year, then 24m households, paying an extra £7/year each is only £168m.

The BBC has got it slighly wrong in terms of cost per annum but not quite as
much as you think. The £2-3bn figure is definitely wrong. The capacity
contracts are per delivery year and are not cumulative

The latest auction 2016 T-4 for 2020/21 cleared at £22.50/kW/annum with a total
capacity of 52.4GW, for a total cost of £1.1 bn in 2020/21

https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...T-4%202016.pdf

Previous auctions have been slighly lower in price (£18 and £19.50) per kW/annum
and the capacity ranging from 46.3GW to 49.2GW the total cost ranging from
£834m to £955m. These are costs per annum for delivery in that year, or up to
15 years but with the caveat that not more than one contract per generation unit
per annum can be held, so the costs at five years out are £1bn more or less per
annum for 50GW of secured capacity.

https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...lts%202015.pdf
https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...s%20Report.pdf

Electricity consumption in the UK by domestic consumers totals around 30% of
total demand on an annual basis (BEIS Dukes 2016 page 118)

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...pter_5_web.pdf

£1.1bn per annum, with a total demand of 303TWh is around 0.36p per kWh ( BEIS
Dukes 2016 page 115)

On a mid range dual fuel OFGEM Typical Domestic Consumption Value of 3100 kWh
that equates to £11 per annum.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-...umption-values

--

The Other Mike wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

The sums don't add up, if the winter standby capacity is going to cost
£2-3b/year, then 24m households, paying an extra £7/year each is only £168m.

The BBC has got it slightly wrong in terms of cost per annum but not quite as
much as you think.

[snip bedtime reading]

Thanks for those ...

On 1/22/2017 10:47 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

In article ,
pamela writes:
Thanks for the explanation. I take it the majority of contibutors to
the debates about this in uk.d-i-y are climate sceptics or is there
strong environmentalist representation?

A lot of the people here have science/engineering backgrounds.
That doesn't map to agreement or disagreement on made-made global
warming (there are different views), but it does map to significant
agreement that most environmentalists are clueless about viable
renewable energy generation. Some of this is obvious if you look
at gridwatch.

If there was an environmental organisation that based its
policies on sound science and economics, I'd join it like a shot.

Unfortunately, these organisations attract people who don't
understand either science or economics. That's not just benign -
it results in real harm in the form of unnecessary costs, fuel
poverty deaths, and exporting businesses which were essential for
the economic success of the country and providing jobs. It will
in all probably also result in the lights going out in the next
few years (and that has enormous implications for industry's
economic viability, and peoples' safety). Much of this is directly
due to the misguided activities of environmental organisations
pushing the wrong policies. If they understood the science and
economics, they could actually push for environmental policies
which worked.

+1

In short, these people can't do sums.

And another +1!

On 1/22/2017 9:07 PM, Roger Hayter wrote:
pamela wrote:

On 19:31 22 Jan 2017, Tim Watts wrote:

On 22/01/17 19:24, pamela wrote:
On 15:09 21 Jan 2017, David wrote:

Can't connect at the moment; has it been shut down to conserve
power?


I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation
but I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those
dials?

Genuine question.

I see power genration discussed here and sometimes there are
fierce debates but why the very keen interest ion the first
place and why here?


It's interesting to see if the lights are going out soon...

It's also great to show the kids how erratic wind power is, so
they go and aks their teacher "why don't we build more reliable
nuclear power stations, Miss?"

Seriously, the latter - it's educational


Is observing electric power output & consumption connected with the
global warming debates which goes on here (which I don't read)?

I suspect it is more the "Why haven't successive governments arranged
for us to have a reliable public electricity supply during the next
couple of decades?" debate. Historically the climate change issue
may have affected decision making, but is no excuse for us to be in our
present state. Dereliction of duty by governments over several decades
comes to mind. That's just a personal view, I don't know what the
proponents of gridwatch think.

Isn't it because with privatisation in 1990, "Obligation to supply" was
replaced with "The market will take care of it".

Wait a minute, there is an "obligation to supply renewables".

On 1/22/2017 10:29 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-22, pamela wrote:
On 22:11 22 Jan 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

[40 lines snipped]


Why here? Well I for one enjoy a good rant :-)


How is it that people with such a keen interest in this topic all
came here to uk.d-i-y to discuss it?

Because there are lots of people here who can read, write and count
on their fingers?

Usenet is dying - we make the best of what there is.

You beat me to it!

On 1/30/2017 2:59 PM, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2017 08:23:06 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

pamela wrote:

I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation but
I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those dials?

It's interesting to see if the lights are going out soon...

We should stop worrying, apparently ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38791572

The sums don't add up, if the winter standby capacity is going to cost
£2-3b/year, then 24m households, paying an extra £7/year each is only £168m.

The BBC has got it slighly wrong in terms of cost per annum but not quite as
much as you think. The £2-3bn figure is definitely wrong. The capacity
contracts are per delivery year and are not cumulative

The latest auction 2016 T-4 for 2020/21 cleared at £22.50/kW/annum with a total
capacity of 52.4GW, for a total cost of £1.1 bn in 2020/21

https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...T-4%202016.pdf

Previous auctions have been slighly lower in price (£18 and £19.50) per kW/annum
and the capacity ranging from 46.3GW to 49.2GW the total cost ranging from
£834m to £955m. These are costs per annum for delivery in that year, or up to
15 years but with the caveat that not more than one contract per generation unit
per annum can be held, so the costs at five years out are £1bn more or less per
annum for 50GW of secured capacity.

https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...lts%202015.pdf
https://www.emrdeliverybody.com/Capa...s%20Report.pdf

Electricity consumption in the UK by domestic consumers totals around 30% of
total demand on an annual basis (BEIS Dukes 2016 page 118)

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...pter_5_web.pdf

£1.1bn per annum, with a total demand of 303TWh is around 0.36p per kWh ( BEIS
Dukes 2016 page 115)

On a mid range dual fuel OFGEM Typical Domestic Consumption Value of 3100 kWh
that equates to £11 per annum.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-...umption-values

Clever stuff, but it does all rather make my brain hurt! Is there a
simple explanation of the process anywhere? I (just about) understood
how it worked in the days of The Pool.

It is all fairly comforting, though, that a proper auction process is
used to set the price of things like this and the mobile phone spectrum.

On 1/23/2017 2:53 PM, pamela wrote:
On 02:10 23 Jan 2017, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo , pamela
escribió:

I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation
but I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those
dials?

Genuine question.

The UK is operating with a very narrow margin (available
generated capacity vs demand) and people are interested in how
the grid and market are coping and whether the lights will go
out.

There's interest in how well intermittent so-called "green"
power like solar and wind integrate into the mix and how that
intermittency can be planned for.

Why not also discuss sustainability of marine species or the
accumulation of ocean waste? Perhaps proliferation of nuclear
weapons? Deforestation? What about dangerous space junk? Or
genetically modified foods? To me, any of these seems just as
interesting as power generation or climate change.

I'm not deriding any single one of these topics but it's
surprising to come to a "hammer and nails" DIY group and see big
threads about climate change.

why the very keen interest ion the first place

if the lights go out, your angle grinder stops working...

and why here?

see above There's also some posters with relevant background
in the industry posting, which is input that's nice to have, and
some are very good at crunching the numbers.

I'm unaware of a suitable alternative group. Surely it's not as
off topic as asking about transfer times between bank accounts?

I don't mind the discussion at all but I'm intrigued why so many
people here find this particualr topic so interesting. Perhaps
it's a coincidence of backgrounds, interests, current news, etc.

With respect, there are not that many threads on climate change. This
one is about the technology for electricity generation, and its economics.

A lot of the posters here might readily be labelled deniers elsewhere,
but there is little dispute about rising carbon dioxide levels, that it
is a greenhouse gas, and that it contributes to rising temperatures.
What many of us challenge is the idea that prediction is easy, or that
the apocalypse is upon us.

On 1/23/2017 6:39 PM, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
pamela submitted this idea :
On 15:09 21 Jan 2017, David wrote:

Can't connect at the moment; has it been shut down to conserve
power?

I can't say I take much interest in electric power generation but
I have to ask what's the attraction of observing those dials?
Genuine question.
I see power genration discussed here and sometimes there are
fierce debates but why the very keen interest ion the first place and
why here?

So we know just before the lights go out, that the lights are going out
and to get our home genny warmed up and ready .

Exactly! :-)