at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish - or isn't the medium selective enough for the cheap
mechanical features to matter?

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:41:49 PM UTC, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish - or isn't the medium selective enough for the cheap
mechanical features to matter?

You could always buy a turntable for 50 quid , cart included.....

Turntable that costs more will still be able to extract more from the groove than a pin through a polystyrene cup ;-)

Higher range ones don't seem to appear in adverts like the cheapo ones.

On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...

--
Adrian C

On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...


It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

A cheap CD player would be 100 times better, not to mention having to
keep vinyl super clean.

I grew up listening to vinyl and a good record on a decent middle of the
road Gerrard turntable with a very decent but simple amp and again, a
pair of middle but decent speakers, did sound good.

I could easily hear the difference between a ceramic and magnetic
cartridge too.

But it was also a PITA to keep the records clean and having to flip the
record and all that malarky.

Now we have a race to the bottom with **** earphones, and compressed to
buggery MP3s.


Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be arsed
about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

On 17/01/2017 15:57, Clive George wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be arsed
about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

Quite often not, IME. Crosley Cruisers, for example. Many, many
cheap-and-nasty integradted turntables with USB output. You're
forgetting vinyl as a fashion statement here.

On 17/01/17 16:12, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:57, Clive George wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be arsed
about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

Quite often not, IME. Crosley Cruisers, for example. Many, many
cheap-and-nasty integradted turntables with USB output. You're
forgetting vinyl as a fashion statement here.

Yup, hipster marketing. Ye can also buy records, specially made, as
accessories for the player. Just in case you know someone who wants a
memory trip back to the 50s, but has lost all in the meantime, they have
Sinatra and Elvis.

http://www.theworks.co.uk/c/home-and.../vinyl-records

Local shop had these on sale during Christmas for £10 each. No takers.

--
Adrian C

On 17/01/17 17:04, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-17, Clive George wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be arsed
about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

[FX]Waves


I reckon the market is split: people who will go out and buy a
half-decent turntable etc (or better), and the ones doing it for fashion..

In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-17, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 17/01/17 17:04, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-17, Clive George wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores -
because half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy
turntable with a cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with
all the wow and flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish
pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be
arsed about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

[FX]Waves


I reckon the market is split: people who will go out and buy a
half-decent turntable etc (or better), and the ones doing it for
fashion..

I'm still using the turntable I bought 40 years ago.

Likewise. A Thorens TD150. But nearer 50 years ago here.

--
*I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/01/2017 22:46, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-17, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 17/01/17 17:04, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-17, Clive George wrote:
On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:

It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

I dunno - IME people who can be arsed with vinyl also tend to be arsed
about getting a decent amp/turntable/speakers.

[FX]Waves


I reckon the market is split: people who will go out and buy a
half-decent turntable etc (or better), and the ones doing it for fashion..

I'm still using the turntable I bought 40 years ago.

Good point. I would be, if I used one.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 15:38:23 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file..

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...


It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

Maybe you should talk to them personlly and see what they actually have but about 50% of vinyl purchasers don't play them but only play the MP3 downloads the last album I brought for instance. Some like the object lijke those ****wits that still by books that dont; have videos in them and can;t be easily searched. So people colelct wine in a simmilar way , some colelct cars and put them in sheds and doesnlt drive them to and from work, so what's the point of a car if yuo don;t drive it.


A cheap CD player would be 100 times better, not to mention having to
keep vinyl super clean.

I've managed that with most of my vinyl and mostly unscratched.
Hopefully the picture posters are still their too.


I grew up listening to vinyl and a good record on a decent middle of the
road Gerrard turntable with a very decent but simple amp and again, a
pair of middle but decent speakers, did sound good.


I could easily hear the difference between a ceramic and magnetic
cartridge too.

So, we all know that not everyone from 10 to 100 has the same hearing ability thought their lives.


But it was also a PITA to keep the records clean and having to flip the
record and all that malarky.

Didnlt seem that much hassle at the time but if it was yuo coudl always record what yuo wanted on to a C120, if you were that fussed. I used C90s and how did you listen to music in the car didnlt the needle jump around all over the place.



Now we have a race to the bottom with **** earphones, and compressed to
buggery MP3s.

Or ACC and yuo can pay quite a bit for earphnes same as the old days with speakers.
I've got a pair of Bose QuietComfort 15 for music listening and a £20 earbud if I want to be out and about listening but then it's usually podcast NOT music.
I prefer them to my apple ones.


Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

Yes and we all should spend at least £50 for a decent bottle of wine in a resturant as with most it depends on the price and what you want.
Most of my MP3s are ACC or MP3 at 192KHz or higher.

Some like the object lijke those ****wits that still by books that dont; have videos in them and can;t be easily searched.

If I wanted a video I'd not buy a book. The bandwidth for information
transfer in text can be massively higher than a video.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 16:50:56 UTC, Clive George wrote:
Some like the object lijke those ****wits that still by books that dont; have videos in them and can;t be easily searched.

If I wanted a video I'd not buy a book.

When I wanted to know how to do a donut in a car I found it easier to watch a listen to a diagram than have a text explanation.
Why is the early days (enen even now) of medicine do studets watch surgeons when they can read how to do anything from a book. ?

The bandwidth for information
transfer in text can be massively higher than a video.

I doubt that but would need to check if a picture is worth a thopusand words but it does depend what those words are.

On 17/01/17 16:25, whisky-dave wrote:

Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

Yes and we all should spend at least £50 for a decent bottle of wine in a resturant as with most it depends on the price and what you want.
Most of my MP3s are ACC or MP3 at 192KHz or higher.

Where do you get them? Amazon were ****e when I tried...

And it's not about £50. I can get the CD from HMV or Amazon for the
usual price and ripping is free.

All I was saying is by now, we should be able to buy 44.4kHz lossless
DRM free media.

44.4kHz was a compromise between quality and play time. It was a very
good compromise, but we might as well go a little better now there's no
reason not to.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 17/01/17 16:25, whisky-dave wrote:

Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

44.4kHz was a compromise between quality and play time. It was a very good
compromise, but we might as well go a little better now there's no reason
not to.

I think that 44.1 was chosen to be sufficiently good that only dogs and bats
would notice the limitations.

It is generally accepted that human hearing is 20-20,000 Hz
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_range and many other sources) and
diminishes with age.

Nyquist's sampling rate says that to represent an analogue sine wave of
frequency f, you need a sampling rate of at least 2f.

So for 20 kHz, you need to sample at 40 k samples/sec. Allowing for
low-pass anti-aliasing filters that are not perfect, 44.1 or 48 k
samples/sec are sufficient. The exact values of 44.1 and 48 are for
compatibility with other systems (I forget the details, but I think they are
related to using PAL and NTSC video recorders with a few samples per picture
line for mastering early digital recordings).

So what would be the advantage of increasing the sampling rate? What would
the benefit be of being able to reproduce audio frequencies beyond about 20
kHz?

Maybe there is a need to increase the sampling depth to greater than 16 bits
(ie -32K to +32K), though I think subjective tests have shown that there is
no perceived advantage, as the signal to noise ratio is already so great
that it exceeds that of analogue amplifiers that would reproduce the sound.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 20:11:32 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/01/17 16:25, whisky-dave wrote:

Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

Yes and we all should spend at least £50 for a decent bottle of wine in a resturant as with most it depends on the price and what you want.
Most of my MP3s are ACC or MP3 at 192KHz or higher.

Where do you get them? Amazon were ****e when I tried...

visa torrent years ago some were MP3 some ACC some AIFF some FLACK, when I have the CD I ripped it to ACC or MP3 192k.

Somehow I"ve eneded up with space oddity 8 track was included in one of the downloads.
I have 10 DVD/CDs of syd barratt "HYGIY" I think was the title all FLAC.



And it's not about £50. I can get the CD from HMV or Amazon for the
usual price and ripping is free.

Yep that's what I'd do and have done.
But some like higher quality than others which is why there's a range of most products.


All I was saying is by now, we should be able to buy 44.4kHz lossless
DRM free media.

Isn't that what CDs are.



44.4kHz was a compromise between quality and play time. It was a very
good compromise, but we might as well go a little better now there's no
reason not to.

for that you'd need the music industry to produce at that quality.
But teh music industry never really cared about that they cared about their profit margins I know because someone I knew (manager level) at vivendi(SP) asked me how the music was being got as they;d seen sales drop and wanted to find a way of stopping on-line copying, I said you can;t you're only option is either better quality CDs that people will want to buy (include posters and artwaork that won;t be easy to copy cheaply or start selling MP3s yuorseves at a cheap enough price that people won't bother searching for it for free.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:38:18 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...


It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

A cheap CD player would be 100 times better, not to mention having to
keep vinyl super clean.

I grew up listening to vinyl and a good record on a decent middle of the
road Gerrard turntable with a very decent but simple amp and again, a
pair of middle but decent speakers, did sound good.

I could easily hear the difference between a ceramic and magnetic
cartridge too.

But it was also a PITA to keep the records clean and having to flip the
record and all that malarky.

Now we have a race to the bottom with **** earphones, and compressed to
buggery MP3s.


Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

You can now if you want to waste your money.

http://www.hdtracks.co.uk/

https://www.highresaudio.com/en

Hyperion and Linn will sell you high res lossess fliles direct. No
doubt there are lots more and no doubt mainly selling to the same sort
of people who think vinyl can't be bettered.

You do have to be careful; some of the claimed hi-res tracks look
suspiciously like CDs with a doubled sample rate.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 16:30:34 UTC, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:38:18 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...


It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

A cheap CD player would be 100 times better, not to mention having to
keep vinyl super clean.

I grew up listening to vinyl and a good record on a decent middle of the
road Gerrard turntable with a very decent but simple amp and again, a
pair of middle but decent speakers, did sound good.

I could easily hear the difference between a ceramic and magnetic
cartridge too.

But it was also a PITA to keep the records clean and having to flip the
record and all that malarky.

Now we have a race to the bottom with **** earphones, and compressed to
buggery MP3s.


Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

You can now if you want to waste your money.

http://www.hdtracks.co.uk/

https://www.highresaudio.com/en

Hyperion and Linn will sell you high res lossess fliles direct. No
doubt there are lots more and no doubt mainly selling to the same sort
of people who think vinyl can't be bettered.

You do have to be careful; some of the claimed hi-res tracks look
suspiciously like CDs with a doubled sample rate.

If they are remastered they aren't original are they.
Which make the originals worth more than a MP3 or even AIFF

Which is why I haven't dumped my vinyl.
I've got clear and coloured vinyl of some tracks too they do seem to crackle more as I remember.
I haven't dumped my CDs either.

On 17/01/2017 16:30, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:38:18 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

You can now if you want to waste your money.

http://www.hdtracks.co.uk/

https://www.highresaudio.com/en

Hyperion and Linn will sell you high res lossess fliles direct. No
doubt there are lots more and no doubt mainly selling to the same sort
of people who think vinyl can't be bettered.

You do have to be careful; some of the claimed hi-res tracks look
suspiciously like CDs with a doubled sample rate.


take a look at this article before plunging into Hi-res audio

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Tidal and Qobuz do hi-res streaming and downloads as do Linn
and others.

On 17/01/17 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:


Personally - I buy CDs and rip (carefully with software that retries
errors rather than skips), then encode lossless, plus a second max
bitrate MP3 for and devices that cannot handle lossless.

Same he FLAC for the Volumio Raspberry Pi and my Sandisk player, MP3
for the car.

Where we should be right now is being able to buy digital lossless media
at better than 44kHz sampling...

This article

https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

is an interesting read on that.

On 17/01/2017 15:38, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/01/17 13:11, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

That might not matter ...


It makes me laugh when I see the vinyl record hipster stores - because
half the people buying vinyl probably have a POS toy turntable with a
cheap ceramic cartridge, unbalanced turntable with all the wow and
flutter possible, unbalanced arm and rubbish pre-amp.

A cheap CD player would be 100 times better, not to mention having to
keep vinyl super clean.


Which I think is to miss the point. Not everyone listens to music for a
pristine digital rendition. For some it's an experience that's actually
enhanced if you have something tactile, tangible and full of associations.

Some people get that, lots don't.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 13:11:47 UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates

why use low bit rates

and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

Everyone knows the grotty ceramics of the 60s. By the 80s ceramic pickup technology had matured, and one could get something ceramic to rival most hifi pickups for a few australian peanuts. Few would ever admit it, but it wasn't hard to fool people on that point.


NT

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 1:11:47 PM UTC, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 17/01/17 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish

Vinyl surface noises sounds horrible when compressed at low bit rates
and cartridges in cheap decks will almost certainly be ceramic.

The MP3 result will be lifeless if there was any life in the original
studio performance.

low bit rate (128kb/s) is the default setting for Microsoft but it can sound like a kicking a dustbin on some music. 192 or 256 sounds a lot better if you have the memory space.

In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish - or isn't the medium selective enough for the cheap
mechanical features to matter?

I suppose if you make billions of them the price comes down. But the
precision a decent turntable, arm and cartridge were made to in the good
ol' days suggests otherwise. A replacement stylus for my Ortofon cart.
costs more than one of these USB turntables. ;-)
Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let alone
one which does that for a USB input.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/01/2017 13:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let alone
one which does that for a USB input.


It doesn't need to though.
You just post process the digital to correct it.
As long as the DtoA is good enough it will be better than preamp
equalization (for some value of better).

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:42:34 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let
alone
one which does that for a USB input.

It doesn't need to though.
You just post process the digital to correct it.

Assuming that recording pre the horrendous RIAA equalisation you can
get a decent enough digital representation that doesn't go all nasty
when corrected in the digital domain. There is 40 dB difference in
level between the LF and HF ends. 16 bit encoding might struggle,
that only has a 96 dB dynamic range, doesn't leave a lot of space
with 30 to 40 dB dyanmic range of an LP. 24 bit would be OK. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article l.net,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:42:34 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let
alone
one which does that for a USB input.

It doesn't need to though.
You just post process the digital to correct it.

Assuming that recording pre the horrendous RIAA equalisation you can
get a decent enough digital representation that doesn't go all nasty
when corrected in the digital domain. There is 40 dB difference in
level between the LF and HF ends. 16 bit encoding might struggle,
that only has a 96 dB dynamic range, doesn't leave a lot of space
with 30 to 40 dB dyanmic range of an LP. 24 bit would be OK. B-)

Quite. 16 bit is just fine for an end user replay system. Once you go into
signal processing of any kind - and that's what the RIAA curve is - it is
very marginal.

--
*A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it uses up a thousand times more memory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

DerbyBorn wrote:

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Neighbours had to send back two, to get a third working one, I haven't
heard the results.

it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp.

Do that in software on the PC.

On 17/01/17 13:51, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

DerbyBorn wrote:

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Neighbours had to send back two, to get a third working one, I haven't
heard the results.

it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp.

Do that in software on the PC.

still got to do a proper input buffer-with-gain stage though.


--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 17/01/17 13:51, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

DerbyBorn wrote:

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Neighbours had to send back two, to get a third working one, I haven't
heard the results.

it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp.

Do that in software on the PC.

still got to do a proper input buffer-with-gain stage though.

As I vaguely understood it, it was necessary to do the correction in the
first stage for noise reasons. BICBW, and that might only have been a
practical limitation at the time.

--

Roger Hayter

On 17/01/17 19:53, Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 17/01/17 13:51, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:

DerbyBorn wrote:

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Neighbours had to send back two, to get a third working one, I haven't
heard the results.

it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp.

Do that in software on the PC.

still got to do a proper input buffer-with-gain stage though.

As I vaguely understood it, it was necessary to do the correction in the
first stage for noise reasons. BICBW, and that might only have been a
practical limitation at the time.

well if you do it at too high a level, you may end up clipping before
filtering.

IN general the input stage boosted form a nominal 2mV or so at 50K ohm
impedance, to a corrected few hundred mV. You could have put the RIAA
filter after that, but why bother? Wrap it as feedback on the input
stage so the output of that is neat and normalised with respect to
volume and frequency response.

It was just the neatest way to do it.

There was only a 65dB S/N ratio on a typical pickup anyway, due to
thermal noise in the wires. You could generally design carefully for a
couple more dB of front end noise at the worst.

Hardly CD quality.




--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 13:17:29 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Are they rubbish - or isn't the medium selective enough for the cheap
mechanical features to matter?

I suppose if you make billions of them the price comes down. But the
precision a decent turntable, arm and cartridge were made to in the good
ol' days suggests otherwise. A replacement stylus for my Ortofon cart.
costs more than one of these USB turntables. ;-)
Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let alone
one which does that for a USB input.

I remember the LM381 making a pretty good job of it.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
I suppose if you make billions of them the price comes down. But the
precision a decent turntable, arm and cartridge were made to in the good
ol' days suggests otherwise. A replacement stylus for my Ortofon cart.
costs more than one of these USB turntables. ;-)
Also, it was never simple making a good sounding RIAA preamp. Let alone
one which does that for a USB input.

I remember the LM381 making a pretty good job of it.

Right. You'd not want to see what I ended up with, then. ;-)

--
*Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/01/2017 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at Wow
and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Not worth it when you can just download an MP3.
I consider it just a legal to do so as recording the record.
Neither will get you into trouble.


Are they rubbish - or isn't the medium selective enough for the cheap
mechanical features to matter?


Rubbish, but probably better than the old SP25s people had.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/01/2017 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Not worth it when you can just download an MP3. I consider it just a
legal to do so as recording the record. Neither will get you into trouble.

is my entire LP collection available on MP3? even if it were, it would cost
me quite a lot to duplicate music that I already have.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/01/2017 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Not worth it when you can just download an MP3. I consider it just a
legal to do so as recording the record. Neither will get you into
trouble.

is my entire LP collection available on MP3? even if it were, it would
cost me quite a lot to duplicate music that I already have.

I'm surprised by the number of folk who have got rid of their record
playing equipment, but kept all their LPs. My niece's hubby is one such.
Given how much space LPs take to store. He was apparently getting one of
these USB turntables for Xmas so he could digitize his LP collection.
I did say he could come here and do it properly. ;-)

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 14:28:30 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/01/2017 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Not worth it when you can just download an MP3. I consider it just a
legal to do so as recording the record. Neither will get you into
trouble.

is my entire LP collection available on MP3? even if it were, it would
cost me quite a lot to duplicate music that I already have.

I'm surprised by the number of folk who have got rid of their record
playing equipment,

I got rid of my Dual 505 turntable when it stopped working took it apart and the band had perished after just 30 years ! same with my cassette deck.
My NAD 3130 seems to only work on one channel, my mordn short speakers take up too much space and my only working bit of hifi is a graphic equaliser I only used when watching VHS films and music on VHS.
I still have most of this stuff just sitting in the loft incluing 2 VHS machines a Mac SE30 a Macplus a LC475 and quite a bit of other stuff that's of little use. I still have all my old vinyl a few feet in physical size.
Glad I kept it and didn;t through it all out years ag, only found out last year that I had a rae alladine sane gatefold with misprint.

Not something you can get with MP3s


but kept all their LPs.

I assume singles too.

My niece's hubby is one such.
Given how much space LPs take to store.

Well if it;s a collectable hobby collectign cars takes more space even if you've a thing about angle grinder they take up space too most hobbies to, look at all the wasted space taken up by books when you can have them in PDF or whatever.


He was apparently getting one of
these USB turntables for Xmas so he could digitize his LP collection.
I did say he could come here and do it properly. ;-)

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
I'm surprised by the number of folk who have got rid of their record
playing equipment,

I got rid of my Dual 505 turntable when it stopped working took it apart
and the band had perished after just 30 years ! same with my cassette
deck. My NAD 3130 seems to only work on one channel, my mordn short
speakers take up too much space and my only working bit of hifi is a
graphic equaliser I only used when watching VHS films and music on VHS.

So you no longer bother with a Hi-Fi, but listen to music from your iPhone
only?

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/01/2017 12:41, DerbyBorn wrote:
at one time with turntables we used to study specifications looking at
Wow and Flutter, Rumble and other characterisitics.

You can now buy a turntable for about £50 to output to a MP3 file.

Not worth it when you can just download an MP3. I consider it just a
legal to do so as recording the record. Neither will get you into
trouble.

is my entire LP collection available on MP3? even if it were, it would
cost me quite a lot to duplicate music that I already have.

I'm surprised by the number of folk who have got rid of their record
playing equipment, but kept all their LPs. My niece's hubby is one such.
Given how much space LPs take to store. He was apparently getting one of
these USB turntables for Xmas so he could digitize his LP collection.
I did say he could come here and do it properly. ;-)

I kept my turntable but there's a rubber band in it that has metamorphosed
into something rather sticky.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England