I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

On 04/01/17 22:32, Huge wrote:
Well, if the energy doesn't come out of them as heat, where does it go?

That's what I thought. But you know when people are so convinced it gets
you doubting...

On 05/01/17 00:47, R D S wrote:
On 04/01/17 22:32, Huge wrote:
Well, if the energy doesn't come out of them as heat, where does it go?

That's what I thought. But you know when people are so convinced it gets
you doubting...

Climate change is based on that principle.

On 04/01/17 22:47, R D S wrote:
On 04/01/17 22:32, Huge wrote:
Well, if the energy doesn't come out of them as heat, where does it go?

That's what I thought. But you know when people are so convinced it gets
you doubting...


It's the old convection, conduction, radiation thing, isn't it? All the
energy escapes from the device but how much is convected into warming up
the air, how much is directly radiated towards objects and how much
conducted elsewhere makes some types of heater more suitable in certain
sorts of circumstances. Remember, before central heating was popular,
the heat/light units in bathrooms? Oh: that's only me then....

Nick

In article ,
R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

Depends on what you mean by efficiency. If the technical term, most are
anything but ****e - as near 100% as makes no difference. Far better than
any gas fire or whatever. Except that electricity costs more.

But as regards how well they heat the person rather than room, a radiant
type might be better under some circumstances.

--
*I never drink water because of the disgusting things that fish do in it..

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 00:22:12 +0000, Nick Odell
wrote:


Well, if the energy doesn't come out of them as heat, where does it go?


It's the old convection, conduction, radiation thing, isn't it? . Remember, before central heating was popular,
the heat/light units in bathrooms? Oh: that's only me then....

Was one of those in parents bathroom , but least we had a bathroom by
the time I arrived
Apparently before my mother agreed to marry my father she insisted he
build a bathroom and an inside loo in the farmhouse he lived in.
Faclities before were the tin tub in front of the range and an outside
lav.
I see the lamp heaters are still obtainable.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748


G.Harman

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 22:26:53 UTC, R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Electric_heating


NT

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 12:22:15 AM UTC, Nick Odell wrote:
snip
.. Remember, before central heating was popular,
the heat/light units in bathrooms? Oh: that's only me then....

Nick

Horrible, weren't they - you could feel your scalp roasting while your toes (other appendages, too, if you were unlucky!) were being frozen off...
There are still a few places that use these - mainly I suspect in places where heating is only occasionally required.

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 22:26:51 +0000, R D S wrote:

I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e)

Well, on the grounds you get most of the energy out in the form you
want (heat) then that makes them pretty efficient from a numbers POV.
How good any particular design is at heating a particular space is
another matter.

and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Generally, yup.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

It all depends what he was really getting at. For keeping *you* warm
in a cold workshop then any convection heating might not be considered
as good as a radiant or fan heater for putting the heat when it can be
best used (eg, at / on you).

Any opinions/facts welcome.

If you want safe and silent (electric) heating in say a bedroom then a
oil filled radiator might be the best thing. Because panel heaters
often have an open element that gets quite hot then you tend to get
more expansion clicks and clonks than say an oil filled rad.

That said, I recently bought a small (450W) oil filled rad for some
background heating and I'm not sure if it's working properly (as in
the ideal design solution). It seems, even at 450W, it can't liberate
it's heat fast enough (even with the adjustable thermostat at the
lower settings) and so sits there cycling on the overtemp stat which
is too noisy (and frequent) for a bedroom, till it gets up to the
temperature for the main stat. ;-(

I'm working on an external solution with an Arduino, a solid state
relay and a couple of digital thermal probes. One probe will be
clipped to the rad to ensure it doesn't get to the switching point of
the overtemp stat and another to be the room stat that can be remote
from the rad itself.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 22:26:51 -0000, R D S wrote:

I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

All electric heaters are 100% efficient. Heat is the only output. Except for heat pumps (air conditioning run backwards). You can get 400% there, as you suck heat from outside.

--
Does the Little Mermaid wear an algebra?

R D S wrote

I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them for
the same amount of energy put in.

Thats very superficial. Fan heaters do in fact warm a room
up much quicker because they deliberately heat the air in
the room and dont just radiate to the cold walls etc. And
you can sit in the hot air stream if the heater can't heat
everything to the temperature you want too.

And the heated throws that are just a fancy name for
an electric blanket that you use on the armchair or sofa
only heat you, not much of anything else, so use a lot
less electricity to keep you warm enough too.

Same with radiant heaters often used in large areas
like big workshops. They only heat the person
standing in front of them, not the entire place.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and berating
my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled and panel
heaters and suchlike better.

And fan heaters and heated throws
even better again in some situations.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

On 04/01/17 22:26, R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.


Fact: all electric heaters of the household type (ie heater is sitting
insider the house) are 100% efficient.

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat. A good oil
filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for a 100% duty
cycle.

A cheap B&Q one I had could manager about 50%

That is not efficiency, but maybe it's what he meant?

wrote:

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 12:22:15 AM UTC, Nick Odell wrote:
snip
. Remember, before central heating was popular,
the heat/light units in bathrooms? Oh: that's only me then....

Horrible, weren't they - you could feel your scalp roasting while your toes (other appendages, too, if you were unlucky!) were being frozen off...
There are still a few places that use these - mainly I suspect in places where heating is only occasionally required.

IIRC there was also an issue with lamp bulbs only intended for
use in dry locations being fitted, and shattering as a
consequence.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 04/01/2017 22:26, R D S wrote:

I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

At one level that is true. Unless you use a heat pump.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

But there is a big difference in how that heat gets distributed and how
it makes the room feel. Convector heaters do a great job of creating a
thin layer of very hot air against the ceiling for the benefit of any
bats roosting up there. You will only feel a benefit when the hot air
eventually fills the room down to the height where you are sitting.

You need something with a fan in it to stir the air up a bit and warm
the air in the room up quickly. The difference is substantial in terms
of comfort level since the air in a room doesn't take all that much
energy to heat it up and mainly determines how it feels to you.

The walls and ceiling will remain cold for longer but how often do you
touch them?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 22:26:53 UTC, R D S wrote:
Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Of course if your mate has just spent thousands of pounds on magic German clay-filled heaters he must believe they are better than a £10 Argos heater.

Owain

On 05/01/2017 00:41, wrote:

I see the lamp heaters are still obtainable.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou.../dp/B006Z96748

We still use one of those.

On 04/01/17 22:32, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-04, R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

Well, if the energy doesn't come out of them as heat, where does it go?


It travels along the mounting screws and gets lost in the wall?

--
Adrian C

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 04/01/17 22:26, R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.


Fact: all electric heaters of the household type (ie heater is sitting
insider the house) are 100% efficient.

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat.

Only if they have have a thermostat.

A good oil filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that have) can run for a
100% duty cycle.

A cheap B&Q one I had could manager about 50%

You sure you didnt mean manger ?

That is not efficiency, but maybe it's what he meant?

On 05/01/17 07:17, Tim Watts wrote:

Fact: all electric heaters of the household type (ie heater is sitting
insider the house) are 100% efficient.

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat. A good oil
filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for a 100% duty
cycle.

A cheap B&Q one I had could manager about 50%

That is not efficiency, but maybe it's what he meant?

Maybe the word is efficacy?

--
Adrian C

Tim Watts posted
On 04/01/17 22:26, R D S wrote:
I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.


Fact: all electric heaters of the household type (ie heater is sitting
insider the house) are 100% efficient.

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat.

Isn't that equally true of conventional water-flow radiators?

A good oil filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for
a 100% duty cycle.

--
Jack

In message , GB
writes
On 05/01/2017 00:41, wrote:

I see the lamp heaters are still obtainable.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ceiling-Mou...eater-x/dp/B00
6Z96748

We still use one of those.

Yes, we have several, and my son uses one of them.
--
Graeme

On 05/01/17 12:35, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 05/01/17 07:17, Tim Watts wrote:

Fact: all electric heaters of the household type (ie heater is sitting
insider the house) are 100% efficient.

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat. A good oil
filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for a 100% duty
cycle.

A cheap B&Q one I had could manager about 50%

That is not efficiency, but maybe it's what he meant?

Maybe the word is efficacy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x8D4T--0v4

On Thursday, 5 January 2017 07:44:52 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat. A good oil
filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for a 100% duty
cycle.

I have an expensive Dimplex fan heater with a similar problem, the thermostat senses the heater output airstream not the room temperature.

Owain

On 1/5/2017 8:16 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
On 04/01/2017 22:26, R D S wrote:

I'd always thought that electric heaters were all the same in terms of
efficiency (ie. ****e) and you get the same amount of heat out of them
for the same amount of energy put in.

At one level that is true. Unless you use a heat pump.

Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Any opinions/facts welcome.

But there is a big difference in how that heat gets distributed and how
it makes the room feel. Convector heaters do a great job of creating a
thin layer of very hot air against the ceiling for the benefit of any
bats roosting up there. You will only feel a benefit when the hot air
eventually fills the room down to the height where you are sitting.

You need something with a fan in it to stir the air up a bit and warm
the air in the room up quickly. The difference is substantial in terms
of comfort level since the air in a room doesn't take all that much
energy to heat it up and mainly determines how it feels to you.

The walls and ceiling will remain cold for longer but how often do you
touch them?

+1

In workshops and other large industrial spaces it is not uncommon to
mount radiant heaters 8 to 10 feet up, directed at the working region.
In terms of watts per cubic metre, these are very good at improving the
comfort level, particularly for people who are moving around a bit, even
if the air temperature is not raised to "domestic" comfort levels.

At home, though, you can't beat a thermostatically controlled fan heater
at floor level. You also need to control cold draughts (for comfort).

On 05/01/17 17:32, newshound wrote:
At home, though, you can't beat a thermostatically controlled fan heater
at floor level. You also need to control cold draughts (for comfort).
actually hot air curtains are often better,

But best is UFH. No cold draughts on yer feet.

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 21:31:33 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

snip

However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat.

Only if they have have a thermostat.

I have a 'cheap' oil filled rad that has a large surface area and
smallish heater (600W) that works exactly as they should. To make it
work *better* I have it plugged into an external timer-stat that
therefore overcomes and issues with localised heating of radiators own
thermostat.

Most also have an 'upper limit stat' that *should* trip before it's
room stat (if the room stat is sufficiently thermally decoupled from
the rad).

This is what is happening on the couple of small (physically and
heater wattage) rads I have here and am working on fixing with an
external Arduino based stat solution).

Cheers, T i m

On 05/01/17 15:50, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-05, wrote:
On Thursday, 5 January 2017 07:44:52 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
However, cheap convector heaters lack the surface area to run at full
power all the time and end up cycling on the thermostat. A good oil
filled radiator (eg deLonghi Vento that I have) can run for a 100% duty
cycle.

I have an expensive Dimplex fan heater with a similar problem, the thermostat senses the heater output airstream not the room temperature.

I have had three fan heaters (two cheapo Chinese ones from Sainsbury,
one expensive De Longhi one from John Lewis (got the money back for that
one)) in the last couple of years fail because the safety thermostats
fail open circuit, presumably from being constantly cycled.

I opened the cheapo Chinese ones up with the intention of replacing the
thermostats, but they were not amenable to repair and I was concerned that
if I merely shorted the 'stats out, the heaters would burst into flames.



Modern fan heaters are pants.

I had 3 - they had the air intake in the base, so they sucked in the
fluff from the hard floors (dust bunnies migrate well on hardwood).

These built up on the grill and caused parts of teh element to run red hot.

This then caused the plastic case to melt.

And to top it off, I had to buy a set of weird securitybits to open then
to hoover out the crud!

Give me a metal cased fan heater with a top inlet any day...

On 1/5/2017 3:52 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/01/17 17:32, newshound wrote:
At home, though, you can't beat a thermostatically controlled fan heater
at floor level. You also need to control cold draughts (for comfort).
actually hot air curtains are often better,

But best is UFH. No cold draughts on yer feet.

Only really experienced it when visiting St Catherine's. Gives you a hot
bum when sitting on the floor.

I agree that air curtains are good for things like shops, not always so
convenient in the home. I thought we were talking about simple "add-on"
heating options.

On 05/01/17 10:02, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 22:26:53 UTC, R D S wrote:
Though a mate of mine was round my place of work today today and
berating my £10 convector heaters as being the worst, with oil filled
and panel heaters and suchlike better.

Of course if your mate has just spent thousands of pounds on magic German clay-filled heaters he must believe they are better than a £10 Argos heater.

Owain

I doubt it, he is as tight as feck.

He's generally a very knowledgeable bloke. I'll stick to warming my
office with my ten quid heater.