The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gara...w=1908&bih=890

However unless it is broken, there seems to be no positive retention of
the spring on the collar.

It looks pretty much like this when assembled
https://www.movingupgaragedoors.com/.../wire_size.jpg

With no tension on, the spring can be easily threaded on like a nut on a
bolt. The spring is then tensioned up and locked by rotating the other
end. The door works fine for several years until the spring works itself
loose, until it comes off the end fitting (With I expect a large bang
but I have not been around to hear it) and opening the garage door is
dead weight with no spring assist.

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of this
type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years ago it
has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Bearing in mind how nerve racking re-tensioning the garage door spring
is, I would like to extend the period between failures back to something
like 20 years.

Does anyone have any tips/ideas as to what I could do to stop the spring
slowly working itself off the end fitting? Now is the time to do it as
the spring is un-tensioned and easy to manipulate :-)

Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).

--
Chris B (News)

Chris B wrote:
The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gara...w=1908&bih=890

However unless it is broken, there seems to be no positive retention of
the spring on the collar.

It looks pretty much like this when assembled
https://www.movingupgaragedoors.com/.../wire_size.jpg

With no tension on, the spring can be easily threaded on like a nut on a
bolt. The spring is then tensioned up and locked by rotating the other
end. The door works fine for several years until the spring works itself
loose, until it comes off the end fitting (With I expect a large bang
but I have not been around to hear it) and opening the garage door is
dead weight with no spring assist.

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of this
type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years ago it
has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Bearing in mind how nerve racking re-tensioning the garage door spring
is, I would like to extend the period between failures back to something
like 20 years.

Does anyone have any tips/ideas as to what I could do to stop the spring
slowly working itself off the end fitting? Now is the time to do it as
the spring is un-tensioned and easy to manipulate :-)

Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).


A good smear of one of the stronger threadlock compounds maybe?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris B used his keyboard to write :
Bearing in mind how nerve racking re-tensioning the garage door spring is, I
would like to extend the period between failures back to something like 20
years.

Does anyone have any tips/ideas as to what I could do to stop the spring
slowly working itself off the end fitting? Now is the time to do it as the
spring is un-tensioned and easy to manipulate :-)

Might a Jubilee clip tightened around both spring and where it goes on
the fitting help clamp it in place?

On 13/12/2016 19:05, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:37:54 +0000, Chris B wrote:

The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

Snip


Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).


I don't have experience of torsion springs (the two garage doors I'm
familiar with either have tension springs or concrete counterweights,
respectively), but looking at the pictures you linked to, and reading
some of the descriptions as to how to fit and torsion up such springs,
I don't understand quite why your spring works its way off the
fitting. AIUI once torsioned up, the spring should hold itself onto
the 'thread' on the end fitting. The only way I can see it working its
way off is if the torsion gradually weakens over the years. Also AIUI,
the end fitting that gets turned in order to torsion the spring has a
couple of locking bolts that are tightened up onto the torsion shaft
when the spring is torsioned by the correct amount. If over time those
bolts gradually slip on the shaft, it will allow the torsion in the
spring to relax, meaning that it won't be screwed onto the 'thread'
quite so strongly, and may eventually work its way off.

Does that make any sense at all? :-)


Well I have been trying to get my head around it as well, and
struggling, but the way I think it works is this.

I should just say that (in case it makes any difference) this is a
Cardale compact door which has the spring on the back of the door rather
than on the door frame above the door. I believe these are a bit rare
with only about 900 of them being made in the 1980s. Most advice on the
net seems to be for torsion springs on the frame above the door.

All fitting is done with the door closed

First of all the spring can be threaded over the end fitting by hand to
the end of the thread it is now effectively "fixed" to one side of the
door, the other end goes over (but is not yet clamped to) a shaft that
connects the cable pulleys on both sides of the door.

To fit the spring I wind up (with 2 spanners) the free end over the
shaft many times. As the spring is rotated it increases in length (to
my initial surprise but I think it makes sense now) and when it has been
wound up enough I hold the spring/spanner with one hand whilst turning 2
allan keys to lock the other end of the spring to the shaft. I can now
let go of the spanner, the spring doesn't move but the cables at each
end of the door become tensioned. This part of the fitting has not moved.

As the door rises the end of the spring now fixed to the shaft rotates
to help lift the door, but as it rotates both ends are now a fixed
linear distance apart so it must be coming under linear tension (even
though the rotational tension will be less) since as we were fitting it
with one free end the length increases as it is wound up.

When lowering the door the spring is now "wound up again" by the weight
of the door to its original position increasing the torsional tension
but reducing the linear tension.

I think it is this repeated increase/reduction in linear tension which
is making the spring slowly walk off the thread.

Just my thoughts on how it must work anyway - happy to be corrected.

--
Chris B (News)

Chris B wrote:
On 13/12/2016 19:05, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:37:54 +0000, Chris B wrote:

The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

Snip


Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).


I don't have experience of torsion springs (the two garage doors I'm
familiar with either have tension springs or concrete counterweights,
respectively), but looking at the pictures you linked to, and reading
some of the descriptions as to how to fit and torsion up such springs,
I don't understand quite why your spring works its way off the
fitting. AIUI once torsioned up, the spring should hold itself onto
the 'thread' on the end fitting. The only way I can see it working its
way off is if the torsion gradually weakens over the years. Also AIUI,
the end fitting that gets turned in order to torsion the spring has a
couple of locking bolts that are tightened up onto the torsion shaft
when the spring is torsioned by the correct amount. If over time those
bolts gradually slip on the shaft, it will allow the torsion in the
spring to relax, meaning that it won't be screwed onto the 'thread'
quite so strongly, and may eventually work its way off.

Does that make any sense at all? :-)


Well I have been trying to get my head around it as well, and
struggling, but the way I think it works is this.

I should just say that (in case it makes any difference) this is a
Cardale compact door which has the spring on the back of the door rather
than on the door frame above the door. I believe these are a bit rare
with only about 900 of them being made in the 1980s. Most advice on the
net seems to be for torsion springs on the frame above the door.

All fitting is done with the door closed

First of all the spring can be threaded over the end fitting by hand to
the end of the thread it is now effectively "fixed" to one side of the
door, the other end goes over (but is not yet clamped to) a shaft that
connects the cable pulleys on both sides of the door.

To fit the spring I wind up (with 2 spanners) the free end over the
shaft many times. As the spring is rotated it increases in length (to
my initial surprise but I think it makes sense now) and when it has been
wound up enough I hold the spring/spanner with one hand whilst turning 2
allan keys to lock the other end of the spring to the shaft. I can now
let go of the spanner, the spring doesn't move but the cables at each
end of the door become tensioned. This part of the fitting has not moved.

As the door rises the end of the spring now fixed to the shaft rotates
to help lift the door, but as it rotates both ends are now a fixed
linear distance apart so it must be coming under linear tension (even
though the rotational tension will be less) since as we were fitting it
with one free end the length increases as it is wound up.

When lowering the door the spring is now "wound up again" by the weight
of the door to its original position increasing the torsional tension
but reducing the linear tension.

I think it is this repeated increase/reduction in linear tension which
is making the spring slowly walk off the thread.

Just my thoughts on how it must work anyway - happy to be corrected.


It seems to me that it's the winding up of the spring that increases the
grip that the spring has on the threaded collar. This grip will be tightest
when the door is closed and weakest when the door is fully opened.

The periodic detachment of the spring that you're suffering may just be
down to slow loss of tension by the spring over the years resulting in the
grip on the collar failing when the door is open.

Maybe it's just time for a new spring or putting even more tension than you
normally do when you "wind" it up?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 14/12/2016 12:44, Tim+ wrote:
Chris B wrote:
On 13/12/2016 19:05, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:37:54 +0000, Chris B wrote:

The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

Snip


Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).


I don't have experience of torsion springs (the two garage doors I'm
familiar with either have tension springs or concrete counterweights,
respectively), but looking at the pictures you linked to, and reading
some of the descriptions as to how to fit and torsion up such springs,
I don't understand quite why your spring works its way off the
fitting. AIUI once torsioned up, the spring should hold itself onto
the 'thread' on the end fitting. The only way I can see it working its
way off is if the torsion gradually weakens over the years. Also AIUI,
the end fitting that gets turned in order to torsion the spring has a
couple of locking bolts that are tightened up onto the torsion shaft
when the spring is torsioned by the correct amount. If over time those
bolts gradually slip on the shaft, it will allow the torsion in the
spring to relax, meaning that it won't be screwed onto the 'thread'
quite so strongly, and may eventually work its way off.

Does that make any sense at all? :-)


Well I have been trying to get my head around it as well, and
struggling, but the way I think it works is this.

I should just say that (in case it makes any difference) this is a
Cardale compact door which has the spring on the back of the door rather
than on the door frame above the door. I believe these are a bit rare
with only about 900 of them being made in the 1980s. Most advice on the
net seems to be for torsion springs on the frame above the door.

All fitting is done with the door closed

First of all the spring can be threaded over the end fitting by hand to
the end of the thread it is now effectively "fixed" to one side of the
door, the other end goes over (but is not yet clamped to) a shaft that
connects the cable pulleys on both sides of the door.

To fit the spring I wind up (with 2 spanners) the free end over the
shaft many times. As the spring is rotated it increases in length (to
my initial surprise but I think it makes sense now) and when it has been
wound up enough I hold the spring/spanner with one hand whilst turning 2
allan keys to lock the other end of the spring to the shaft. I can now
let go of the spanner, the spring doesn't move but the cables at each
end of the door become tensioned. This part of the fitting has not moved.

As the door rises the end of the spring now fixed to the shaft rotates
to help lift the door, but as it rotates both ends are now a fixed
linear distance apart so it must be coming under linear tension (even
though the rotational tension will be less) since as we were fitting it
with one free end the length increases as it is wound up.

When lowering the door the spring is now "wound up again" by the weight
of the door to its original position increasing the torsional tension
but reducing the linear tension.

I think it is this repeated increase/reduction in linear tension which
is making the spring slowly walk off the thread.

Just my thoughts on how it must work anyway - happy to be corrected.


It seems to me that it's the winding up of the spring that increases the
grip that the spring has on the threaded collar. This grip will be tightest
when the door is closed and weakest when the door is fully opened.

The periodic detachment of the spring that you're suffering may just be
down to slow loss of tension by the spring over the years resulting in the
grip on the collar failing when the door is open.

Maybe it's just time for a new spring or putting even more tension than you
normally do when you "wind" it up?

Tim

I suspect more tension on the spring when installing would result in it
smacking you under the chin when you open the door :-). It normally
comes up to about waist height unaided.

The suggestions so far have been thread locker (from you Tim) and also a
Jubilee clip over the spring. There is no reason why I cant do both of
those. And I hope it will be well over 5 years before I have to come
back and say it didn't work.....

Thanks all.

--
Chris B (News)

Chris B wrote:
On 14/12/2016 12:44, Tim+ wrote:
Chris B wrote:
On 13/12/2016 19:05, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:37:54 +0000, Chris B wrote:

The torsion spring on my garage door transmits load to the door through
a large threaded "collar" end fitting similar to those shown on this
google image search.

Snip


Unless of course this is the way garage door mechanisms wear out and it
is time for a new door. (Parts other than cables for this door seem to
be unavailable).


I don't have experience of torsion springs (the two garage doors I'm
familiar with either have tension springs or concrete counterweights,
respectively), but looking at the pictures you linked to, and reading
some of the descriptions as to how to fit and torsion up such springs,
I don't understand quite why your spring works its way off the
fitting. AIUI once torsioned up, the spring should hold itself onto
the 'thread' on the end fitting. The only way I can see it working its
way off is if the torsion gradually weakens over the years. Also AIUI,
the end fitting that gets turned in order to torsion the spring has a
couple of locking bolts that are tightened up onto the torsion shaft
when the spring is torsioned by the correct amount. If over time those
bolts gradually slip on the shaft, it will allow the torsion in the
spring to relax, meaning that it won't be screwed onto the 'thread'
quite so strongly, and may eventually work its way off.

Does that make any sense at all? :-)


Well I have been trying to get my head around it as well, and
struggling, but the way I think it works is this.

I should just say that (in case it makes any difference) this is a
Cardale compact door which has the spring on the back of the door rather
than on the door frame above the door. I believe these are a bit rare
with only about 900 of them being made in the 1980s. Most advice on the
net seems to be for torsion springs on the frame above the door.

All fitting is done with the door closed

First of all the spring can be threaded over the end fitting by hand to
the end of the thread it is now effectively "fixed" to one side of the
door, the other end goes over (but is not yet clamped to) a shaft that
connects the cable pulleys on both sides of the door.

To fit the spring I wind up (with 2 spanners) the free end over the
shaft many times. As the spring is rotated it increases in length (to
my initial surprise but I think it makes sense now) and when it has been
wound up enough I hold the spring/spanner with one hand whilst turning 2
allan keys to lock the other end of the spring to the shaft. I can now
let go of the spanner, the spring doesn't move but the cables at each
end of the door become tensioned. This part of the fitting has not moved.

As the door rises the end of the spring now fixed to the shaft rotates
to help lift the door, but as it rotates both ends are now a fixed
linear distance apart so it must be coming under linear tension (even
though the rotational tension will be less) since as we were fitting it
with one free end the length increases as it is wound up.

When lowering the door the spring is now "wound up again" by the weight
of the door to its original position increasing the torsional tension
but reducing the linear tension.

I think it is this repeated increase/reduction in linear tension which
is making the spring slowly walk off the thread.

Just my thoughts on how it must work anyway - happy to be corrected.


It seems to me that it's the winding up of the spring that increases the
grip that the spring has on the threaded collar. This grip will be tightest
when the door is closed and weakest when the door is fully opened.

The periodic detachment of the spring that you're suffering may just be
down to slow loss of tension by the spring over the years resulting in the
grip on the collar failing when the door is open.

Maybe it's just time for a new spring or putting even more tension than you
normally do when you "wind" it up?

Tim

I suspect more tension on the spring when installing would result in it
smacking you under the chin when you open the door :-). It normally
comes up to about waist height unaided.

The suggestions so far have been thread locker (from you Tim) and also a
Jubilee clip over the spring. There is no reason why I cant do both of
those. And I hope it will be well over 5 years before I have to come
back and say it didn't work.....

Thanks all.


Just a thought, do you wind the spring up with the door open or closed? The
former would obviously be easier and allow you to make sure that there's
enough "pre-torsion" to stop the spring detaching.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris B wrote:

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of this
type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years ago it
has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Here's another thought. The spring is simply shagged. It can no longer
maintain enough tension over its full range of movement to reliably grip
the anchor spiral when it's at its lowest tension.

Let's face it, after all these years it doesn't really owe you anything.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
Chris B wrote:

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of this
type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years ago it
has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Here's another thought. The spring is simply shagged. It can no longer
maintain enough tension over its full range of movement to reliably grip
the anchor spiral when it's at its lowest tension.

Let's face it, after all these years it doesn't really owe you anything.

our door springs are at least 35 years old and still work .

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

charles wrote:
In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
Chris B wrote:

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of this
type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years ago it
has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Here's another thought. The spring is simply shagged. It can no longer
maintain enough tension over its full range of movement to reliably grip
the anchor spiral when it's at its lowest tension.

Let's face it, after all these years it doesn't really owe you anything.

our door springs are at least 35 years old and still work .


Torsion springs? Anyhow, just because yours are fine doesn't preclude
Chris's being shagged.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article , Tim+ wrote:
charles wrote:
In article , Tim+
wrote:
Chris B wrote:

Now the door worked fine for 20+ years until the first failure of
this type, but having reassembled and re-tensioned it about 5 years
ago it has now failed again in exactly the same manner.

Here's another thought. The spring is simply shagged. It can no longer
maintain enough tension over its full range of movement to reliably
grip the anchor spiral when it's at its lowest tension.

Let's face it, after all these years it doesn't really owe you
anything.

our door springs are at least 35 years old and still work .


Torsion springs? Anyhow, just because yours are fine doesn't preclude
Chris's being shagged.


No, it doesn't but it contracts the suggestion that after 20 years what can
you expect.

--
IT Administrator
London Members' Centre
National Trust for Scotland
Reg Charity SC 027207

On 14/12/2016 19:50, Tim+ wrote:



Just a thought, do you wind the spring up with the door open or closed? The
former would obviously be easier and allow you to make sure that there's
enough "pre-torsion" to stop the spring detaching.


The spring is tensioned with the door closed (as per instructions). The
thought of doing it with the door open would mean working directly
overhead which is just too scary for words. (With a fully tensioned
spring held only by one spanner whilst you put the other spanner down
and pick up the allen key to lock it, its bad enough working at waist
height).

Regarding your other point that it is simply sh.....d. Well yes that is
quite possible and this next repair, if only short lived will be its last.

Replacement springs are not available (as I said in an earlier post the
design of the door is a bit unconventional and only a fairly small
number were made)

I have been lusting after one of those motorised garage doors and I may
soon have the excuse that I "need" one as opposed to just "want" one :-)


--
Chris B (News)