I've now got my Greenstar HE28 System boiler installed (thanks John!).
Unfortunately, as it is connected to a heat bank, I need the flow
temperature to exceed the normal 75C limit. According to the
installation/commissioning manual, this is done by removing the yellow end
cap from the temperature selection knob and reinserting it 180 degrees to
the original. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to want to budge and I don't
want to apply more force than I am, as it might snap the PCB/knob. Has
anyone ever been successful in this task? Any ideas?

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
I've now got my Greenstar HE28 System boiler installed (thanks John!).
Unfortunately, as it is connected to a heat bank, I need the flow
temperature to exceed the normal 75C limit. According to the
installation/commissioning manual, this is done by removing the yellow end
cap from the temperature selection knob and reinserting it 180 degrees to
the original. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to want to budge and I don't
want to apply more force than I am, as it might snap the PCB/knob. Has
anyone ever been successful in this task? Any ideas?

Yes, use more force.... Seriously, I have a 29HE and it took a lot of
force to shift the little B*&&%r.

Christian.

AndyP

--

We were always told that a million monkeys typing for a million years
would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the
Internet, we know this is not true.

Yes, use more force.... Seriously, I have a 29HE and it took a lot of
force to shift the little B*&&%r.

How do you stop the PCB and knob disintegrating? The front panel is already
bulging alarmingly as I try to prise it off.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
Yes, use more force.... Seriously, I have a 29HE and it took a lot of
force to shift the little B*&&%r.

How do you stop the PCB and knob disintegrating? The front panel is already
bulging alarmingly as I try to prise it off.

Christian.

I will have a look tonight as to how it comes off, I think it was just very tight
and a little screwdriver under the edge did the trick.

AP

--

We were always told that a million monkeys typing for a million years
would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the
Internet, we know this is not true.

I will have a look tonight as to how it comes off, I think it was
just very tight and a little screwdriver under the edge did the trick.

Mine has an obvious screwdriver slot. I assume this is what you mean by
"edge"?

Christian.

I do not have one.

Are you sure it is not just a rotary control, i.e. to the electrnics
world a potentiometer. Has it a screwdriver slot in the top? If so
small screwdriver and gently turn.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:52:22 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I will have a look tonight as to how it comes off, I think it was
just very tight and a little screwdriver under the edge did the trick.

Mine has an obvious screwdriver slot. I assume this is what you mean by
"edge"?

Christian.


Lawrence

usenet at lklyne dt co dt uk

Are you sure it is not just a rotary control, i.e. to the electrnics
world a potentiometer. Has it a screwdriver slot in the top? If so
small screwdriver and gently turn.

No. It is a little yellow dot that doubles as the pointer for the
temperature control. I suspect is has a protruding lug that prevents the
pointer being turned past 75C. By reversing the dot, I suspect the alleged
lug will no longer prevent the pointer being turned. The slot is in the edge
of the insert supposedly to give something for your screwdriver to grip on
when prising it out. It's a weird concept anyway, especially as there is a
software setting to limit the temperature as well. Both have to be set to
get 75C water.

Christian.

Oh thanks for the delights of oil boilers where. I have no PCB in
sight just a handfull of interwired thermostats and switches. I lie
probably, there is a high voltage source in the burner itself and some
sequencing logic.

I like the KISS principle.

Good luck.

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 13:21:51 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Are you sure it is not just a rotary control, i.e. to the electrnics
world a potentiometer. Has it a screwdriver slot in the top? If so
small screwdriver and gently turn.

No. It is a little yellow dot that doubles as the pointer for the
temperature control. I suspect is has a protruding lug that prevents the
pointer being turned past 75C. By reversing the dot, I suspect the alleged
lug will no longer prevent the pointer being turned. The slot is in the edge
of the insert supposedly to give something for your screwdriver to grip on
when prising it out. It's a weird concept anyway, especially as there is a
software setting to limit the temperature as well. Both have to be set to
get 75C water.

Christian.



Lawrence

usenet at lklyne dt co dt uk

"Lawrence" wrote in message
...
Oh thanks for the delights of oil boilers where. I have no PCB in
sight just a handfull of interwired thermostats and switches. I lie
probably, there is a high voltage source in the burner itself and some
sequencing logic.

I like the KISS principle.

Yes, but what are you using to send that message? ;-)


--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
Copyright (c) Sirius Cybernetics Corporation (formerly Microsoft)

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net...
I've now got my Greenstar HE28 System boiler installed (thanks John!).
Unfortunately, as it is connected to a heat bank, I need the flow
temperature to exceed the normal 75C limit. According to the
installation/commissioning manual, this is done by removing the yellow end
cap from the temperature selection knob and reinserting it 180 degrees to
the original. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to want to budge and I don't
want to apply more force than I am, as it might snap the PCB/knob. Has
anyone ever been successful in this task? Any ideas?

Christian.

Christian, once you've got this working, would you mind posting a
brief report on the recovery aspects of your Pandora heat bank,
coupled with your boiler.

I'm considering the same model that you have installed and would be
interested in some "real-world" data before I commit.

Many thanks

Neil

Christian, once you've got this working, would you mind posting a
brief report on the recovery aspects of your Pandora heat bank,
coupled with your boiler.

Well, it isn't brilliant with the boiler limited to 75C. However, it does
actually heat enough to turn off the 75C cylinder stat eventually. I think
the electric immersion was heating higher than 75C. When I get the flow
temperature above 80C, then I'm sure the boiler heating will do the same.

I tried even harder to remove the dot last night. I'm sure I'll damage the
boiler if I pull harder. I'm going to phone Worcester...

Christian.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:51:27 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Christian, once you've got this working, would you mind posting a
brief report on the recovery aspects of your Pandora heat bank,
coupled with your boiler.

Well, it isn't brilliant with the boiler limited to 75C. However, it does
actually heat enough to turn off the 75C cylinder stat eventually. I think
the electric immersion was heating higher than 75C. When I get the flow
temperature above 80C, then I'm sure the boiler heating will do the same.

I tried even harder to remove the dot last night. I'm sure I'll damage the
boiler if I pull harder. I'm going to phone Worcester...

Christian.


I've just fitted a 35HE and that yellow bit is tight, I ended up
ripping it off with a pair of grips. Luckily the knob is fairly
sturdy, a good tug was required. It went back in o.k. just got teeth
marks on it, can't see til you look closely though!


SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

I've just fitted a 35HE and that yellow bit is tight, I ended up
ripping it off with a pair of grips.

I could try mole grips. However, the thing is mostly buried, so I'm not sure
what purchase I can get on it.

Luckily the knob is fairly sturdy, a good tug was required.

Whilst the knob itself looks sturdy, I'm not sure about the control it is
attached to. It moves too much for my comfort.

Christian.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:49:50 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I've just fitted a 35HE and that yellow bit is tight, I ended up
ripping it off with a pair of grips.

I could try mole grips. However, the thing is mostly buried, so I'm not sure
what purchase I can get on it.

Luckily the knob is fairly sturdy, a good tug was required.

Whilst the knob itself looks sturdy, I'm not sure about the control it is
attached to. It moves too much for my comfort.

Well, I'm just saying I managed it. It is of course entirely up to you
as to whether you want to try it or not.


SJW
A.C.S. Ltd.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
I've now got my Greenstar HE28 System boiler installed (thanks John!).
Unfortunately, as it is connected to a heat bank, I need the flow
temperature to exceed the normal 75C limit. According to the
installation/commissioning manual, this is done by removing the yellow end
cap from the temperature selection knob and reinserting it 180 degrees to
the original. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to want to budge and I don't
want to apply more force than I am, as it might snap the PCB/knob. Has
anyone ever been successful in this task? Any ideas?

Do you need to do something softwarewise to get it to stay at 80C? Can you
have it at 80C for DHW and modulation on CH?


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004

Well, I'm just saying I managed it. It is of course entirely up to
you as to whether you want to try it or not.

It's nice to know two people have managed it!

I think I'll give the grips a try. It's a shame that this problem has
blighted an otherwise well designed boiler. Given that there is also a
software setting for this, I don't even see why they bothered making it so
difficult.

Christian.

Do you need to do something softwarewise to get it to stay at 80C?

No. The software is currently set for a maximum of 88C. Unfortunately, the
little peg in the knob physically prevents you turning the thermostat that
high. The peg is useless. They would have been better to have just had the
default software setting at 75C which would have just ignored any thermostat
knob setting above that value. I wonder how many Greenstars there are round
the country with chewed up yellow pointer knobs...

Can you have it at 80C for DHW and modulation on CH?

No. They had an internal diverter valve option with separate temperatures
for both sides, but the hot water flow is limited to 75C. Of course, it was
only later that it occured to me that I could have run the radiators on the
hot water circuit and the cylinder off the radiator circuit to bypass this.
OTOH, this may have defeated some internal algorithms.

Christian.

In uk.d-i-y, Christian McArdle wrote:
Do you need to do something softwarewise to get it to stay at 80C?

No. The software is currently set for a maximum of 88C. Unfortunately, the
little peg in the knob physically prevents you turning the thermostat that
high. The peg is useless.

Aha! Have we at last found a use for a Dremel for you - to grind the
little peg off the knob (giggles)?

Aha! Have we at last found a use for a Dremel for you - to grind the
little peg off the knob (giggles)?

If I could get it out first. The peg is only presumed to stick out of the
back as it is the obvious method of accomplishing its task. I haven't seen
it yet!

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Do you need to do something softwarewise to get it to stay at 80C?

No. The software is currently set for a maximum of 88C. Unfortunately, the
little peg in the knob physically prevents you turning the thermostat that
high. The peg is useless. They would have been better to have just had the
default software setting at 75C which would have just ignored any
thermostat
knob setting above that value. I wonder how many Greenstars there are
round
the country with chewed up yellow pointer knobs...

Can you have it at 80C for DHW and modulation on CH?

No. They had an internal diverter valve option with separate temperatures
for both sides, but the hot water flow is limited to 75C. Of course, it
was
only later that it occured to me that I could have run the radiators on
the
hot water circuit and the cylinder off the radiator circuit to bypass
this.
OTOH, this may have defeated some internal algorithms.

So it will modulate on the load compensation software, either in CHG or DHW
mode?



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004

OTOH, this may have defeated some internal algorithms.

So it will modulate on the load compensation software, either in CHG
or DHW mode?

That I don't know. I suspect it will modulate on any mode. However, it seems
to be cycling on a regular basis anyway. Even modulated right down, my
average heating requirement is very low. It is an Edwardian terrace. I
calculated 8.4kW when it is -3C. At 10C outside, my requirement will be a
fraction of this (probably around 3-4kW) which is below the modulating
range. It definitely is modulating down, though, as the gas rate at the
meter varies.

At some point, I might bother to redo the heating circuit with a TMV and
pump to make the radiators cooler and reduce the return temp.

The pluming I get from it is very slight whatever the return temperature,
especially compared with the Icos I had in the last place, which created
sufficient fog bank to have saved the Tirpitz.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message . net...
Christian, once you've got this working, would you mind posting a
brief report on the recovery aspects of your Pandora heat bank,
coupled with your boiler.

Well, it isn't brilliant with the boiler limited to 75C. However, it does
actually heat enough to turn off the 75C cylinder stat eventually. I think
the electric immersion was heating higher than 75C. When I get the flow
temperature above 80C, then I'm sure the boiler heating will do the same.

I tried even harder to remove the dot last night. I'm sure I'll damage the
boiler if I pull harder. I'm going to phone Worcester...

Christian.

Thanks for this. I'll be interested to hear the outcome when (if) you
manage to get the flow temp above your store design temp.

Regards

Neil

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:34:28 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

OTOH, this may have defeated some internal algorithms.

So it will modulate on the load compensation software, either in CHG
or DHW mode?

That I don't know. I suspect it will modulate on any mode. However, it seems
to be cycling on a regular basis anyway. Even modulated right down, my
average heating requirement is very low. It is an Edwardian terrace. I
calculated 8.4kW when it is -3C. At 10C outside, my requirement will be a
fraction of this (probably around 3-4kW) which is below the modulating
range. It definitely is modulating down, though, as the gas rate at the
meter varies.

At some point, I might bother to redo the heating circuit with a TMV and
pump to make the radiators cooler and reduce the return temp.

The pluming I get from it is very slight whatever the return temperature,
especially compared with the Icos I had in the last place, which created
sufficient fog bank to have saved the Tirpitz.

Do you have a feeling as to whether this is because the bottom
modulating point is less or because it's condensing more internally
and delivering to the condensate drain?



Christian.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:58:34 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Aha! Have we at last found a use for a Dremel for you - to grind the
little peg off the knob (giggles)?

If I could get it out first. The peg is only presumed to stick out of the
back as it is the obvious method of accomplishing its task. I haven't seen
it yet!

Christian.


I'd get the installer back - clearly down to him ;-)

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Do you have a feeling as to whether this is because the bottom
modulating point is less or because it's condensing more internally
and delivering to the condensate drain?

I'm not quite sure. We were going to pull the condensate drain apart and
take a peek, but never got round to it, as I needed the cooker point moved
the same day.

One major difference is that the flue is much longer. Not very long, mind.
However, it does have a couple of bends, an extension piece and a vertical
flue terminal. This would give a much greater chance of flue condensing.

I still don't know if it isn't pluming because the flue gas is too hot, or
too cold for major condensing at the terminal. If anything, there are more
wisps at higher return temperatures than lower ones.

It seems a shame really, having gone to all the trouble of having the
terminal in a place where pluming wouldn't be a problem! (It goes out
through the roof).

Christian.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Do you have a feeling as to whether this is because the bottom
modulating point is less or because it's condensing more internally
and delivering to the condensate drain?

I'm not quite sure. We were going to pull the condensate drain apart and
take a peek, but never got round to it, as I needed the cooker point moved
the same day.

I put a tundish under mine to be able to see the flow.


One major difference is that the flue is much longer. Not very long, mind.
However, it does have a couple of bends, an extension piece and a vertical
flue terminal. This would give a much greater chance of flue condensing.

Could have an influence, I suppose. I have a flue kit which is a bend
and straight out through the wall, with a downward slope back to the
boiler.



I still don't know if it isn't pluming because the flue gas is too hot, or
too cold for major condensing at the terminal. If anything, there are more
wisps at higher return temperatures than lower ones.

Given the current conditions, it's probably because it is modulated
down. Don't forget that the volume of condensate produced depends on
the burn rate as well as the low temperature - i.e. less gas, less
water. Also, it looks like this boiler modulates by varying fan
speed. This influences the velocity of the flue gases, and I would
assume that the longer time spent inside, the greater the amount of
condensation inside.



It seems a shame really, having gone to all the trouble of having the
terminal in a place where pluming wouldn't be a problem! (It goes out
through the roof).

It would appear that different designs have different characteristics.

The Greenstar seems to have a minimum power level of 7.5kW vs. the
Ideal's 9kW, although that doesn't suggest a huge difference.
Perhaps the heat exchanger arrangement - although both seem to be
downfiring types, the Greenstar looks like it has a tall heat
exchanger at the side, whereas the Ideal has a shallower one at the
top.

My boiler drops down to about 3kW on CH output, and under those
conditions, there is very little visible from the flue and a steady
drip of condensate - perhaps 2-3/second.
The only time when there is a more substantial plume is when the
boiler starts a hot water cycle with a totally cold cylinder. Then it
is wound up to about 28kW with full fan speed and a temperature
difference across it of 25 degrees plus. Under those circumstances
there is a fairly hefty stream of condensate into the drain. That
only lasts for a few minutes, though. There is a temperature sensor
on the cylinder, and as the water temperature approaches the set
point, the boiler modulates down









Christian.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:58:34 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Aha! Have we at last found a use for a Dremel for you - to grind the
little peg off the knob (giggles)?

If I could get it out first. The peg is only presumed to stick out of the
back as it is the obvious method of accomplishing its task. I haven't
seen
it yet!

Christian.


I'd get the installer back - clearly down to him ;-)

[Ducks! :-)]



--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
The most dangerous component in a car is the nut that holds the steering
wheel

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:51:05 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Do you have a feeling as to whether this is because the bottom
modulating point is less or because it's condensing more internally
and delivering to the condensate drain?

I'm not quite sure. We were going to pull the condensate drain apart and
take a peek, but never got round to it, as I needed the cooker point
moved
the same day.

I put a tundish under mine to be able to see the flow.

I had a bucket under the Isar I did a few weeks back, and got a steady
dribble of condensate (it was a cold night, in a cold house, and we'd fired
up the system for the first time). But we couldn't see the flue.


One major difference is that the flue is much longer. Not very long,
mind.
However, it does have a couple of bends, an extension piece and a
vertical
flue terminal. This would give a much greater chance of flue condensing.

Could have an influence, I suppose. I have a flue kit which is a bend
and straight out through the wall, with a downward slope back to the
boiler.



I still don't know if it isn't pluming because the flue gas is too hot,
or
too cold for major condensing at the terminal. If anything, there are
more
wisps at higher return temperatures than lower ones.

Given the current conditions, it's probably because it is modulated
down. Don't forget that the volume of condensate produced depends on
the burn rate as well as the low temperature - i.e. less gas, less
water. Also, it looks like this boiler modulates by varying fan
speed. This influences the velocity of the flue gases, and I would
assume that the longer time spent inside, the greater the amount of
condensation inside.



It seems a shame really, having gone to all the trouble of having the
terminal in a place where pluming wouldn't be a problem! (It goes out
through the roof).

It would appear that different designs have different characteristics.

The Greenstar seems to have a minimum power level of 7.5kW vs. the
Ideal's 9kW, although that doesn't suggest a huge difference.
Perhaps the heat exchanger arrangement - although both seem to be
downfiring types, the Greenstar looks like it has a tall heat
exchanger at the side, whereas the Ideal has a shallower one at the
top.

My boiler drops down to about 3kW on CH output, and under those
conditions, there is very little visible from the flue and a steady
drip of condensate - perhaps 2-3/second.
The only time when there is a more substantial plume is when the
boiler starts a hot water cycle with a totally cold cylinder. Then it
is wound up to about 28kW with full fan speed and a temperature
difference across it of 25 degrees plus. Under those circumstances
there is a fairly hefty stream of condensate into the drain. That
only lasts for a few minutes, though. There is a temperature sensor
on the cylinder, and as the water temperature approaches the set
point, the boiler modulates down

When I measured the gas rate it was approx .01 m^3 in 15s immediately the
boiler fired up (not measured over the usual 2 minutes for a digital meter
as the boiler modulates down too soon) indicating a heat input of 25.73kW.
After about 30s(?) the boiler modulated down to half that, staying at that
sort of rate for several minutes until it turned off. (It was too cold, late
and dark to take more gas rate samples, but when Christian gets a webcam set
up on the meter and we can OCR the readings I'm sure we'll get some really
interesting data :-)


--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-|-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
The astronomer married a star

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:11 -0000, "John Stumbles"
] wrote:



When I measured the gas rate it was approx .01 m^3 in 15s immediately the
boiler fired up (not measured over the usual 2 minutes for a digital meter
as the boiler modulates down too soon) indicating a heat input of 25.73kW.
After about 30s(?) the boiler modulated down to half that, staying at that
sort of rate for several minutes until it turned off. (It was too cold, late
and dark to take more gas rate samples, but when Christian gets a webcam set
up on the meter and we can OCR the readings I'm sure we'll get some really
interesting data :-)

You mean it isn't a meter with an ethernet connection? ;-)



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I'd get the installer back - clearly down to him ;-)

[Ducks! :-)]

Well, Worcester-Bosch got back to me. From the horse's mouth:

Thank you for your recent enquiry. I have found that by using
a small flat blade screwdriver inserted in to the slot on the
button, and a plastic rule as a contact point of leverage, I
was able to remove the button successfully. However, I do accept
your comment that it does seem to be very tight.

I tried it (with a chisel instead of a screwdriver and a piece of offcut T&E
rather than a plastic rule). It worked easily with hardly any force. I think
that the lever idea works not because of the extra force that could have
been applied, but because it applies the force at the specific angle if
seems to require.

It's too early to say what the recovery performance is now. I haven't even
had time to ensure that the flow temp gets above 75C, as I only had 2
minutes to spare and it was during a 3 minute anti cycling cut out.

Christian.

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:11 -0000, "John Stumbles"

You mean it isn't a meter with an ethernet connection? ;-)

But the gas regs require a 25mm separation from electrical cables :-)

John S

On 16 Jan 2004 11:34:25 -0800, (John
Stumbles) wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:11 -0000, "John Stumbles"

You mean it isn't a meter with an ethernet connection? ;-)

But the gas regs require a 25mm separation from electrical cables :-)

John S

Well I've heard of some excuses.....

Is that power as in mains cables or any cables though (as a matter of
interest)?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote
| John Stumbles wrote:
| But the gas regs require a 25mm separation from electrical cables :-)
| Well I've heard of some excuses.....
| Is that power as in mains cables or any cables though (as a matter
| of interest)?

I must confess I thought the BT man was taking a bit of a short-cut when he
cable-tied a neighbour's line down the outside gas pipe.

Owain

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:28:59 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 16 Jan 2004 11:34:25 -0800, (John
Stumbles) wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:11 -0000, "John Stumbles"

You mean it isn't a meter with an ethernet connection? ;-)

But the gas regs require a 25mm separation from electrical cables :-)

John S

Well I've heard of some excuses.....

Is that power as in mains cables or any cables though (as a matter of
interest)?


I always thought it was mains cables. Also it is 150mm to meters and consumer
units.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html