Hi All,

I have an existing feed to an outside area - SWA 20mm outside diameter, protected by 20amp trip switch. At the moment this is terminated with a single double socket. I want to add the following
2 x double sockets
4 x outside lights (2 of which will be on the same switch)

I am currently planning the wiring layout and wanted to get your views....

My plan was to take a feed from the current socket (2.5mm Hi-tuff) into a junction box and essentially use this as the supply for the new stuff. Essentially splitting this into 2 circuits.

The sockets are using 2.5mm Hi-tuff and the lights 1.5mm. So now the questions.

1. Is the 2.5mm cable to the junction box ok? The whole circuit is protected by 20amp fuse but in theory this could be increased in the future.

2. Should I put the 2 sockets on a little ring or just connected them radially from the source. Adding the existing one to the ring would be a bit tricky as I would need to get the SWA and 2 x 2.5mm in the socket holes.

3. For the lighting circuit, I guess I have 2 options.
a) take the mains supply to the switches (all 3 are together) and then connect it to the 3 switches taking the neutral and switched lives off to the lights themselves
b) bring the switch and light cables all back into the junction box and then connect it all there.
Anyone have a view on the best option? b) seems more flexible but getting all this in a junction boxes with sufficient knock outs might be challenging

4) on the supply side there is one supply but then several feeds out. Using terminal connectors would be a bit of a pain. Does anyone know of a 1 to many connector. Almost like a sealed version of an earth block - one for live and one for neutral. If you see what I mean?

Thanks in advance for your help

Lee.

wrote:

Essentially splitting this into 2 circuits.

It's not really splitting it, the new stuff will be a spur on the
original circuit, since it's more than one single or one double socket,
it needs to be a fused spur, so at the junction box you need a 13A fuse,
if it was indoors you'd use a Fused Connection Unit, will the box be
outside, or can you arrange for it to be indoors?

2. Should I put the 2 sockets on a little ring

Not a lot of point, they'll be limited to 13A total, rather than 32A of
a ring as norm, so treat everything on the spur downstream of the fuse
as a radial.

On 27/10/2016 14:07, wrote:

4) on the supply side there is one supply but then several feeds out.
Using terminal connectors would be a bit of a pain. Does anyone know
of a 1 to many connector.

Wago connectors http://tinyurl.com/j2pn4zx =
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Wago_Connectors/Wago/index.html.
My preference would be the 222 series but the new more compact 221
series could be worth considering.

Use a suitably sized empty enclosure like http://tinyurl.com/hlwuyj3 =
http://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/junction-boxes/cat830522

--
Mike Clarke

On 27/10/16 17:00, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 27/10/2016 14:07, wrote:

4) on the supply side there is one supply but then several feeds out.
Using terminal connectors would be a bit of a pain. Does anyone know
of a 1 to many connector.

Wago connectors http://tinyurl.com/j2pn4zx =
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Manufacturers/Wago_Connectors/Wago/index.html.
My preference would be the 222 series but the new more compact 221
series could be worth considering.

The new ones are very nice - used some to adjust the tappings for a
dashcam the other day.

On Thursday, 27 October 2016 14:07:27 UTC+1, wrote:
Hi All,

I have an existing feed to an outside area - SWA 20mm outside diameter, protected by 20amp trip switch. At the moment this is terminated with a single double socket. I want to add the following
2 x double sockets
4 x outside lights (2 of which will be on the same switch)

I am currently planning the wiring layout and wanted to get your views.....

My plan was to take a feed from the current socket (2.5mm Hi-tuff) into a junction box and essentially use this as the supply for the new stuff. Essentially splitting this into 2 circuits.

The sockets are using 2.5mm Hi-tuff and the lights 1.5mm. So now the questions.

1. Is the 2.5mm cable to the junction box ok?

yes

The whole circuit is protected by 20amp fuse but in theory this could be increased in the future.

it can't

2. Should I put the 2 sockets on a little ring or just connected them radially from the source. Adding the existing one to the ring would be a bit tricky as I would need to get the SWA and 2 x 2.5mm in the socket holes.

your choice

3. For the lighting circuit, I guess I have 2 options.
a) take the mains supply to the switches (all 3 are together) and then connect it to the 3 switches taking the neutral and switched lives off to the lights themselves
b) bring the switch and light cables all back into the junction box and then connect it all there.
Anyone have a view on the best option? b) seems more flexible but getting all this in a junction boxes with sufficient knock outs might be challenging

both fine

4) on the supply side there is one supply but then several feeds out. Using terminal connectors would be a bit of a pain. Does anyone know of a 1 to many connector. Almost like a sealed version of an earth block - one for live and one for neutral. If you see what I mean?

Thanks in advance for your help

Lee.

Don't forget to 5/6A fuse/mcb the lights.


NT

On 27/10/2016 14:07, wrote:
Hi All,

I have an existing feed to an outside area - SWA 20mm outside
diameter, protected by 20amp trip switch. At the moment this is

Are you sure about that cable diameter - 20mm would be a petty
substantial cable (i.e. 10 or 16 mm^2) for a socket!

terminated with a single double socket. I want to add the following 2
x double sockets 4 x outside lights (2 of which will be on the same
switch)

I am currently planning the wiring layout and wanted to get your
views....

My plan was to take a feed from the current socket (2.5mm Hi-tuff)
into a junction box and essentially use this as the supply for the
new stuff. Essentially splitting this into 2 circuits.

The sockets are using 2.5mm Hi-tuff and the lights 1.5mm. So now the
questions.

1. Is the 2.5mm cable to the junction box ok? The whole circuit is
protected by 20amp fuse but in theory this could be increased in the
future.

Yup, that's fine

2. Should I put the 2 sockets on a little ring or just connected them
radially from the source. Adding the existing one to the ring would
be a bit tricky as I would need to get the SWA and 2 x 2.5mm in the
socket holes.

No need for a ring.

3. For the lighting circuit, I guess I have 2 options. a) take the
mains supply to the switches (all 3 are together) and then connect it
to the 3 switches taking the neutral and switched lives off to the
lights themselves b) bring the switch and light cables all back into
the junction box and then connect it all there. Anyone have a view on
the best option? b) seems more flexible but getting all this in a
junction boxes with sufficient knock outs might be challenging

Whichever works best in the circumstances. I usually find it easier to
make adequate space at the switch end of things to run individual
switched feeds and neutrals to each lamp.

4) on the supply side there is one supply but then several feeds out.
Using terminal connectors would be a bit of a pain. Does anyone know
of a 1 to many connector. Almost like a sealed version of an earth
block - one for live and one for neutral. If you see what I mean?

External grade box with wago terminals.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/10/2016 14:25, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

Essentially splitting this into 2 circuits.

It's not really splitting it, the new stuff will be a spur on the
original circuit, since it's more than one single or one double socket,
it needs to be a fused spur, so at the junction box you need a 13A fuse,
if it was indoors you'd use a Fused Connection Unit, will the box be
outside, or can you arrange for it to be indoors?

The requirement to fuse down for a spur would only apply if reducing the
cable size, and the reduced size cable was not also adequately protected
by the device at the origin of the circuit.

In this case the extra sockets are on an extension of the radial not a
spur. So no need to fuse them.

The lighting cable is smaller, but 3 core 1.5m^2 Hi-Tuff still has a
current rating of 20A, and so could also be used without additional
fusing if you wanted, although personally I would include it.



--
Cheers,

John.

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On 27/10/2016 22:05, John Rumm wrote:

The lighting cable is smaller, but 3 core 1.5m^2 Hi-Tuff still has a
current rating of 20A, and so could also be used without additional
fusing if you wanted, although personally I would include it.

But don't the lampholders require to be fused at 10A (or 6A for SES) ?

--
Mike Clarke

Hi All,

Thanks very much for your replies. Some responses to your questions...

Wago connectors look perfect. I have never used them before but they look brilliant thanks.

Double checked the outer diameter of the cable and it is definitely 20mmish (probably 21/22). The feed was always planned to go out to an outside kitchen area so I recall it being over spec'd just in case. If the core is so big I may end up having trouble getting the 2.5mm in the fitting too!!!!

It looks like the original plan was ok except for the current debate about whether the lighting circuit requires a separate fuse or not. If it ends up that it does require a fused is it possible to buy an outdoor fuse?

thanks again

Lee.

On Friday, 28 October 2016 09:58:21 UTC+1, wrote:
Hi All,

Thanks very much for your replies. Some responses to your questions...

Wago connectors look perfect. I have never used them before but they look brilliant thanks.

Double checked the outer diameter of the cable and it is definitely 20mmish (probably 21/22). The feed was always planned to go out to an outside kitchen area so I recall it being over spec'd just in case. If the core is so big I may end up having trouble getting the 2.5mm in the fitting too!!!!

It looks like the original plan was ok except for the current debate about whether the lighting circuit requires a separate fuse or not. If it ends up that it does require a fused is it possible to buy an outdoor fuse?

thanks again

Lee.

Sorry hit "post" too quickly. Thinking further about the over spec'd cable issue. If it does prove difficult to fit the 2.5mm into the same hole on the socket I would need to replace the switch with a junction box. To save the hassle of redoing the SWA, does anyone know of a blanking plate which would convert the current socket back box into a junction box (if you see what I mean)? The current socket is one of these...

http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-nexus-1...d-socket/67928

thanks

Lee.

On 28/10/2016 09:29, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 27/10/2016 22:05, John Rumm wrote:

The lighting cable is smaller, but 3 core 1.5m^2 Hi-Tuff still has a
current rating of 20A, and so could also be used without additional
fusing if you wanted, although personally I would include it.

But don't the lampholders require to be fused at 10A (or 6A for SES) ?

The reduction stipulated for SES and SBS lamps was removed in the 17th
edition IIRC. The other point depends a bit on the lampholder. A
traditional ceiling rose complete with 0.5mm^2 drop lead may not be
adequately fault protected by a Type B 20A MCB - however a bulkhead
fitting might be fine.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 28/10/2016 09:58, wrote:
Hi All,

Thanks very much for your replies. Some responses to your
questions...

Wago connectors look perfect. I have never used them before but they
look brilliant thanks.

Double checked the outer diameter of the cable and it is definitely
20mmish (probably 21/22). The feed was always planned to go out to an
outside kitchen area so I recall it being over spec'd just in case.
If the core is so big I may end up having trouble getting the 2.5mm
in the fitting too!!!!


If you look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/..._Wire_Armoured

That has the diameters for various SWA sizes shown. So it suggests it
could be a very substantial sized cable!

You may find it easier to terminate that in a junction box first and
come down to a more workable cable size.

It looks like the original plan was ok except for the current debate
about whether the lighting circuit requires a separate fuse or not.
If it ends up that it does require a fused is it possible to buy an
outdoor fuse?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_In...pur/index.html


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 28/10/2016 11:07, charles wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 28/10/2016 09:58, wrote:
Hi All,

Thanks very much for your replies. Some responses to your
questions...

Wago connectors look perfect. I have never used them before but they
look brilliant thanks.

Double checked the outer diameter of the cable and it is definitely
20mmish (probably 21/22). The feed was always planned to go out to an
outside kitchen area so I recall it being over spec'd just in case.
If the core is so big I may end up having trouble getting the 2.5mm
in the fitting too!!!!


If you look at:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/..._Wire_Armoured

That has the diameters for various SWA sizes shown. So it suggests it
could be a very substantial sized cable!

You may find it easier to terminate that in a junction box first and
come down to a more workable cable size.

It looks like the original plan was ok except for the current debate
about whether the lighting circuit requires a separate fuse or not.
If it ends up that it does require a fused is it possible to buy an
outdoor fuse?

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_In...pur/index.html

At the risk of offending a pro in this field, I'd expect a cable this size
to terminate in a small CU. Then you can arrange power and lighting on
separate sub-circuits.

Yup often that size cable would be a sub main feeding a CU or similar.
In this case it sounds like its just a bit over provisioned for a single
socket circuit. Nothing wrong with that as such, but it does make it
harder to work with. Terminating in a small CU would be fine, if you had
a building in which to locate it, and a need for a number of separately
protected circuits.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On 28/10/2016 10:52, wrote:
On Friday, 28 October 2016 10:40:20 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/10/2016 09:29, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 27/10/2016 22:05, John Rumm wrote:

The lighting cable is smaller, but 3 core 1.5m^2 Hi-Tuff still has a
current rating of 20A, and so could also be used without additional
fusing if you wanted, although personally I would include it.

But don't the lampholders require to be fused at 10A (or 6A for SES) ?

The reduction stipulated for SES and SBS lamps was removed in the 17th
edition IIRC. The other point depends a bit on the lampholder. A
traditional ceiling rose complete with 0.5mm^2 drop lead may not be
adequately fault protected by a Type B 20A MCB - however a bulkhead
fitting might be fine.

If it helps, the 3 lighting circuits are
1. 2 (or 3) outdoor post lamps with 24w energy efficient bulbs
2. a drop down to 12v to supply led strip
3. as 2 but with a controller to change the colour

When you say circuits, do you actually mean circuits (i.e. each will
have its own MCB/Fuse - or just three sets of lights to be powered from
the one circuit?

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Friday, 28 October 2016 10:40:20 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/10/2016 09:29, Mike Clarke wrote:
On 27/10/2016 22:05, John Rumm wrote:

The lighting cable is smaller, but 3 core 1.5m^2 Hi-Tuff still has a
current rating of 20A, and so could also be used without additional
fusing if you wanted, although personally I would include it.

But don't the lampholders require to be fused at 10A (or 6A for SES) ?

The reduction stipulated for SES and SBS lamps was removed in the 17th
edition IIRC. The other point depends a bit on the lampholder. A
traditional ceiling rose complete with 0.5mm^2 drop lead may not be
adequately fault protected by a Type B 20A MCB - however a bulkhead
fitting might be fine.

Filament lamps on 20A fuse have much higher risk of exploding when they die. It's upto the OP, but I pick the lowest fuse/mcb that's effective, it simply reduces the risks.


NT

Hi

Unfortunately no outside building for a CU. When I say circuit, I mean a switched light (or series of lights). Sorry poor wording.

Thanks

Lee.

On 29/10/2016 16:54, wrote:
Hi

Unfortunately no outside building for a CU. When I say circuit, I mean a switched light (or series of lights). Sorry poor wording.


No need to over complicate it then... sting up as many sockets as you
want, then a FCU for the lights, and power all of them from that.


--
Cheers,

John.

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Thanks John. I thought the conclusion above was that I wouldn't need to have a separately fused run for the light circuit?

Thanks

Lee.

On 30/10/2016 09:25, wrote:

Thanks John. I thought the conclusion above was that I wouldn't need to have a separately fused run for the light circuit?

You don't absolutely need it[1], but it would be a better bit of design
with it there IMHO because it would give you more freedom of choice with
lamp wiring and fittings. However much depends on the circumstances and
what you want to wire lighting wise. So for example if you are using a
lamp fitting that requires protection at less than 20A, or if you LED
lighting transformer says it should be protected by a 3A fuse etc then
you are still ok.


[1] In that the head end 20A MCB will still likely clear a fault on the
1.5mm^2 section of cable, although you would need to check lengths and
impedances to be sure.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Thanks for the clarification John I hadn't thought about the fuse requirements of the transformers. I guess I would need to do that seperately anyway as the fuse in the FCU is likely to be more than 3amp for all the lights?

Just taken the existing socket apart and the supply is indeed 6mm and a pig to work with. How the electrician got this into the socket is beyond me..... No fit for any other cable so will need to connect this to a 30amp terminal connectors then wire this socket and the feed to the new junction box from that....

Thanks again

Lee.

On 30/10/2016 10:30, wrote:

Thanks for the clarification John I hadn't thought about the fuse requirements of the transformers. I guess I would need to do that seperately anyway as the fuse in the FCU is likely to be more than 3amp for all the lights?

Only if you intend to install more than 720 watts of lighting|

Your earlier post mentioned a couple of 24w lamps plus a couple of LED
strips - half an amp should cover that lot.

--
Mike Clarke

On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi

Unfortunately no outside building for a CU. When I say circuit, I mean a switched light (or series of lights). Sorry poor wording.

Thanks


So fit a waterproof one or use an unstitched FCU to supply the lights.

One point to note is that hi-tuff cable is not suitable for burying in
the ground if that was your plan.

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No wasn't planning on burying the Hi-tuff. It is essentially being run in/ behind some outdoor kitchen units and then cemented into a garden wall for the lights.

Just wanted to double check also that there is no issue with me stripping the Hi-tuff down to the 3 individual wires (ie removing the outer most 2 layers) to connect the SWA to the existing socket. The SWA terminates in this socket so am changing it to terminate with a connection block and then feeding that back to the original socket. Will clearly run anything that goes outside this box with the cable intact. This would give me some space and flexibility in the back box as this 6mm stuff is a pain.

On 30/10/2016 10:30, wrote:
Thanks for the clarification John I hadn't thought about the fuse
requirements of the transformers. I guess I would need to do that
seperately anyway as the fuse in the FCU is likely to be more than
3amp for all the lights?

Depends on what those lights are... with LED lamps, 3A is a lot of
lighting! (even with filament lamps, its still over 700W)

Just taken the existing socket apart and the supply is indeed 6mm and
a pig to work with. How the electrician got this into the socket is
beyond me.... No fit for any other cable so will need to connect this
to a 30amp terminal connectors then wire this socket and the feed to
the new junction box from that....

If you go for one of the external junction boxes (the 32A one I linked
to), they have quite large (removable) terminal strips that will take
6mm^2 easy enough with room to spare.


--
Cheers,

John.

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On Sunday, 30 October 2016 15:00:14 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/10/2016 10:30, wrote:

Thanks for the clarification John I hadn't thought about the fuse
requirements of the transformers. I guess I would need to do that
seperately anyway as the fuse in the FCU is likely to be more than
3amp for all the lights?

Depends on what those lights are... with LED lamps, 3A is a lot of
lighting! (even with filament lamps, its still over 700W)

3A, 5A, 6A are all fine for small lighting loads like yours. FWLIW I don't think you'd be able to run 700W of filament lamps on a 3A fuse.


NT